The End of an Era- A Car Purchase Story

[MarkV]

So, I just purchased a beautiful 2004 Lincoln Towncar Ultimate with 85,500 miles in perfect condition. I love this car! I have put about 1500 miles on it in the first month of ownership. I bought it from the estate of a 94 year old WWII veteran who passed away in early October. So, I drove two hours with my mom and her husband to see it. Upon driving up I knew it was for me! The two middle age brothers fought over selling it to me. But, after a two hour drive I was not going to go away with out it! So, I took it for a test drive around he mountains in Ojai, CA and it drove like brand new. The gentleman who owned it kept a log of every fill up! Apparently, he was a fighter pilot in WWII, and was independent through the end (he even had a girlfriend!).

So, we agreed on a price after an hour of haggling over the $500 difference in my offer compared to their list price. However, I ended up driving away with it. On my drive home I thought wouldn't it be funny If there was big band music in the CD changer? So, I cranked it up and sure enough there was! So, I began to think of the WWII generation, so many of the folks I grew up with are gone, including my grandparents. I thought to myself about the Towncar and how luxury cars were built for luxury and not speed, comfort over performance and how one spent their whole life aspiring to a Lincoln or a Cadillac. It is hard to believe how times have changed, how cars like the Towncar are no more, in the same way that the WWII generation is largely gone, it seems that the sun has set on both the old ways in which cars were constructed along with the generation that they were aimed toward. Now when I go to a Lincoln dealer, or any other luxury dealer it is all about speed, touch screens, and massive racer style wheels. I think the change is not for the better.

[stock_steve]

Big Time CONGRATS! Let's see some pictures of the New Baby!

[Machinist_Bill]

You are correct that they don't make cars for "Old" people like they used to. (Town car, Grand Marquis) Why? Because we are dying off and the larger market is now younger. It's strictly business.

During the beginning of our generation (Baby Boomers) our parents had choices of a big car or a station wagon. The auto manufactures just follow the market. I do, however, despise the fact they push for the European designs. (Focus for one) It seems motor trend doesn't like American cars.

Just my 2 cents......

[Rusty_OToole]

I agree about no longer making luxury cars but don't agree that it is a response to the market.There is still plenty of demand for roomy comfortable cars. As Americans get bigger, cars get smaller and less roomy inside. This forced people to buy trucks and truck based SUVs or minivans just to get enough room for their families.

It is not a matter of fuel economy either. Mr. Lincoln mentions the Town Car as being roomier than the new Lincolns. Well I owned a nearly identical 1998 Town Car and considered it pathetic. I could barely squeeze into the driver's seat. It had way less room inside than a 1965 Ford LTD sedan. Yet the 1965 car was nearly 800 pounds lighter. I gather the new models are even worse.

1965 Ford LTD 4 door hardtop weight - 3588 lbs wheelbase 119 OA length 210

2005 Lincoln Town Car weight -4345 wheelbase 117.7 OA length 216.2

2015 Lincoln MKS weight - 4125 wheelbase 112.9 OA length 205.6

The MKS is what they are selling for a luxury sedan. Notice how their cars keep shrinking in size but not in weight or price. Their biggest vehicle is the Navigator.

2015 Navigator - weight 5830 wheelbase 119 OA length 207.5

So, their biggest luxury vehicle is a 5830 pound behemoth that is practically the same size as a 3588lb 1965 Ford, both on the same wheelbase chassis but the 1965 being a trifle longer. A fairer comparison might be the Navigator to a 1965 Ford Country Squire station wagon at 3945 pounds. The new car being nearly 2000 pounds heavier, on the same wheelbase, a trifle shorter in OA length but much higher. I haven't tried the new Navigator but I doubt it has more interior room than the 1965 car.

All because they can't make a decent car, they have to try to make a car out of a truck.

Is this what they call progress? I can't understand with all the sophisticate computer design capabilities, and the use of aluminum and high strength light weight plastics, that they can't make a car to match what they made 50 years ago.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[uh6077]

You can't compare the weights of classic cars and modern cars. Most of the added weight is due to safety features, not just luxury add ons. Sound deadening, better interior materials also add to the weight. Of course we all love, even prefer antique cars but they are no where near as good as modern cars. That is like saying old TVs and radios are better than modern versions. Technology and engineering improvements are great but I also appreciate all that came before it. I do agree that the WWII generation is far superior than todays in pretty much every measurment that matters (work ethic, love of fellow humans, respect of elders, selfless service, fixing instead of replacing, family above TV).

[60FlatTop]

The last Town Cars are high on my list. If a black one comes along in nice condition I probably won't be able to resist. I like the MKS, as well, and have been looking at them closely. It is made with a Volvo body shell and a Toyota engine. The only scary part appears to be the twin turbochargers integrated into the heads and the potential for the fuel injection system to cause carbon buildup on the intake valves. It didn't need to be designed that way.With sales tax it costs a little over $50,000 before loading options. If I buy one with money from taxed income I will have to earn a little over $70,000 in pretax money to buy it.

I drive a truck for work so my "family" car is an extra. Four years ago I was shopping to replace our 1994 Buick Roadmaster that cost carried about a $30,000 sticker price new. Trying out mid $20,000 replacements for it was quite disappointing. When I factored in 15 years of dollar devaluation I realized I needed to look at a new car in the $50,000 price range. A new Tahoe was the closest equivalent replacement I found. So I bought the nicest 1994 Impala SS I could find in my area for $9,000. It is a little more firm in ride but still a nice smooth car.

Stuff changes, isn't it great that we have amost 100 years of preserved cars to choose from. New car? I'll probably consider that MKS right up to the minute I buy the new Silverado.

Bernie

[MyJetstar1]

I must be an "old soul" because I had driven Lincolns since my mid to late 20's. I definitely didn't fit the target market. For me, it was the comfort. If I have to drive a while, I don't want to feel like I'm sitting on a log wagon. While my truck is plenty roomy enough, it doesn't have that "highway float" I like. In the 2000's, I switched to Cadillac for the power, and sacrificed a bit of the "float". There's probably not a worse investment than a brand new luxury car, though, lol!

[Rusty_OToole]

"You can't compare the weights of classic cars and modern cars."

You are so right. 2000 pounds of safety features?

By the way, old tube electronics frequently are better than new ones. I know different people who have been surprised and impressed at the performance of the old tube radios in their fifties cars. Not only do they sound better than the AM radio in their new car, they bring in stations from much farther away.

Outside the old car hobby there are musicians and stereo fans who find that old tube gear sounds better and works better than anything they build today.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[jay144]

I'll take my '94 Crown Vic LX over any new "luxury" car anytime....

[R Walling]

A group of car enthusies and I go for dinner every Wed night and we often go to a cruse-in's with our personal rides. Come winter, sometimes we take my 2002 Grand Marquis, with 5 heavy weights (not me of corse) in the car, often complements are made about the smooth ride. Yes, they don't make them like they used to.

[earl e rizer]

I'm turning 60 soon and I bought my 1st Lincoln when I was 22. It was a 70 Mark III followed by a 71 Continental sedan, so I've been a large barge lover from a young age. The new Linc's are nice enough cars, but I'm not interested in them. The last of the Town Cars (built in Talbotville Ont) alongside of the Crown Vic's were the last ones I admired,( 2010?) I see a lot of them for sale now with well over 300,000 kilometers and up to one recently with over 900,000. So they must be good cars if the Limo companies bought them and still testify to their durability!

The new MkS doesn't really look the part, but we better get used to seeing them around as the oldies are dying off fast.

Congrats on your 04 purchase and hats off to the original owner!

[Marty Roth]

I still drive Dad's last Mercury Grand Marquis. It is a 1995 which he bought new in September of 1994. At that time, instead of trading in his low-mileage garage-kept '92 Grand Marquis, he sold it to me, and I drove it every day, even after buying the '95 from him.

While I maintain a pair of Cadillac Fleetwood Broughams - a white 1994 and a gold 1995, and thoroughly enjoy driving them for hobby purposes, the '95 Grand Marquis is still a supremely comfortable, economical, and enjoyable cross-country cruiser. The big Cadillacs with the 5.7L LT-1 engine, and the Grand Marquis with the 4.6L amazingly all average approximately 24-26 mpg at Interstate Highway speeds. How can a few more mpg in an imported contortionist-inspired microbox hope to compare with true Detroit flair? Even our '88 BMW 528e doesn't do any better than that.

[uh6077]

You are so right. 2000 pounds of safety features?

It adds up quick. Beefed up frames, reinforced side impact beams in the doors, reinforced roof, more glass than old cars, 5-8 air bags, 4 wheel anti lock disc brakes, more complex and heavier suspension, seats with safety built in (not just wire frame with foam and horsehair padding), traction control, catalytic converter, loads of heat shields and sound deadening, collapsible steering column. I will take a side imapct or head on crash in a modern Cadiallac or Lincoln anyday over say a 50 Chevy. The modern car is going to looks MUCH MUCH worse after the crash but the occupants are going to look much better and likely walk away without major injuries. In a classic car YOU are the crumple zone. All the kinetic energy has to go somewhere. The dash in my Desoto is more solid than the bumpers on most modern trucks and I would hate to know what it feels like to kiss it at 30 mph.

[earl e rizer]

You are so right. 2000 pounds of safety features?

It adds up quick. Beefed up frames, reinforced side impact beams in the doors, reinforced roof, more glass than old cars, 5-8 air bags, 4 wheel anti lock disc brakes, more complex and heavier suspension, seats with safety built in (not just wire frame with foam and horsehair padding), traction control, catalytic converter, loads of heat shields and sound deadening, collapsible steering column. I will take a side imapct or head on crash in a modern Cadiallac or Lincoln anyday over say a 50 Chevy. The modern car is going to looks MUCH MUCH worse after the crash but the occupants are going to look much better and likely walk away without major injuries. In a classic car YOU are the crumple zone. All the kinetic energy has to go somewhere. The dash in my Desoto is more solid than the bumpers on most modern trucks and I would hate to know what it feels like to kiss it at 30 mph.

I agree. I took a steering wheel to the face of a 1959 Ford (actually a Canadian Meteor, same car) at less than 20 mph when I was a teenager and it did indeed hurt as well as damage my nose and teeth. I would rather have an air bag and crumple zone any day.

[1937hd45]

Friend had a GREAT 1929 Lincoln Town Car that I got to drive once, NINE TEEN TWENTY NINE, back when we had an ANTIQUE Car hobby. Bob

[bhambulldog]

Nice score !!

Big Time CONGRATS! Let's see some pictures of the New Baby!

yeah, let's see some more pictures !

[MarkV]

Here are the pictures!!

[MarkV]

The funny thing is that the guy just purchased the Michelin Tires! The interior is flawless and it even came with an installed hands free phone system! Its hard to believe I have driven it 1800 miles in a month!!! I really love it, it was my dream to own one since I went to prom in one back in 2004.

[bhambulldog]

VERY NICE !!

It looks like a NEW car !!

[stock_steve]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]288579[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]288580[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]288581[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]288582[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]288583[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]288584[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]288585[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]288586[/ATTACH] Here are the pictures!!

Wowee! Really nice car! Clean and Classy! Great Score! Have fun with your beautiful new baby! Thanks for posting the photos!!!

[John_S_in_Penna]

I suspect the demise of large cars has as much to do

with fuel-economy requirements, where even 1 or 2 m.p.g.

make a major difference, as with changing tastes.

Policemen, taxi and livery drivers, and limousine companies

certainly all appreciate big cars.

I'm many decades younger than the World War II generation,

but I would have a full-size car as my everyday driver if there

were still plenty of choices--and coupes and convertibles among them.

A friend went to Sweden, and all the big chromed 1950's cars

were widely appreciated by the 20-something set.

[X-Frame]

Rusty... the fact that Americans keep getting bigger is a matter of choice. Quit overeating! I am 57 years old and still the correct weight for my height of 6'-4". My issue is leg and head room (and crunched up like a pretzel on an airplane).

The biggest change IS generational. Just sit back and take an objective look all around you. It is everywhere from how houses are built (now have to have open spaces like great rooms rather than separate formal dining areas), the foods they eat (new age cuisine), the beers they drink (wine bottle sized craft beers), the clothes they wear (ties are becoming extinct and what gives with wearing flip-flops everywhere?). Even the way kids dress for school due to giving kids too much freedom of choice rather than discipline. Brides don't buy crystal, china or silver any more as heirlooms but want everyday stuff. Antique furniture is now at a all time bargain basement price because kids don't want it. Formalities are falling to the wayside.

Also remember the days when you could tell a car's manufacturer at a glance due to the design? A year by its trim and taillights? They did this as part of the marking requests by the public to "keep up with the Jones". That mentality no longer exists hence styles hang on for years or even decades rather than being annual. A cookie-cutter society that could care less about yearly fanfare with dealership parties complete with searchlights, soaped windows with secretive introductions of the new car year. Hell, they start advertising the next year cars mid year and by year's and already advertising for the model year afterwards. It isn't fun any longer to anticipate what Detroit has in store like it use to be.

Keep in mind that this and the past two generations are born of the Computer Age and want everything instantly at their fingertips. One puzzle for me is that all of this was to have saved time yet people complain they have less. Take away their cell and smart phones, their computers and satellite/cable television and how will they survive? I doubt like we did growing up. They want a low maintenance, low fuss, clean and simple life.

So don't say it isn't about "trends" because it is all about it.

[John348]

Hats off also on the purchase of your Lincoln, just goes to prove if something is taken care off, maintained, and stored in a good environment it will last, and it should.

The new Lincolns and Cadillacs still have identity! You know what it is before looking at the nameplate. I have found a vast majority of modern cars have lost their identity. I just bought a new Cadillac CTS, and it is L U X U R Y. I traded in a Yukon for the Cadillac and I don't find it any smaller or confining (seating room wise) then the Yukons were.

For years the only sales competition Lincoln and Cadillac had were each other, but they lost a huge market share to the european luxury cars and had found that there was new competition. They had to react, or they would have gone the way of the Chrysler Impereal. Lincoln and Cadillac had and still have "brand loyal" customers that make up a good portion of their sales. The marketing for both over the years always focused on the concept that owning one was a reward to ones sucess in life, it was and is a statement, that one has arrived. Their marketing people know that! Styling is generational, from clothing to furniture, and automobiles are no different. We all see younger girls today (pretty ones) covered with with what I consider hideouse tattoos, the younger generation of men find this attractive.... to me it is like putting a bumper sticker on my new Cadillac.

I got hooked on buying a Cadillac about 10 years ago and I did not even know it at the time. Everyone remember the ad campaign with Harley Earl's fedora getting blown in the wind created by a speeding Cadillac while the intrumental of part of Led Zepplin's song Rock n' Roll was blasting through the commercial? It sure got my attention!!!! My Dad would never have that song playing on the 8 track of his Cadillac, now they are young guys cars! I just did not realize I was getting older. The car companies are not trying to sell their product to anyone over 55, because they don't have to. I bought a new vehicle for wife every 6 years and new on for myself every six years, with a 3 year gap between each purchase. As we age and slow down, maybe there are two more in my lifetime. If my sons stay on the same plan as I did, there is the potential for the sale of 60 new vehicles in their lifetime! That is the market that they know they have to tap. They offer the Cadillac ATS which is pretty cheap in todays market, I drove one while looking at the CTS and it is nice, but not a what I would call a Cadillac, but then again I am not the market they are seeking

Edited December 30, 2014 by Biscayne John (see edit history)

[X-Frame]

I remember the long string of commercials with Led Zepplin songs in them but again, would a 60-year old in 2003 have bought a Cadillac based on the music? They were aiming for the younger buyers, not the ones who have spen their lives as devoted brand supporters. "This is not your Father's Cadillac" mentality and brings me back to trends as a selling factor again.

I have owned several Cadillac's and Imperial's as well but all were pre 1976. Yes, some of these land yachs are deceiving in size especially with interiors but I still like the real chrome and fabric/leather door panels instead of the cheap plastic crap on today's cars. My daily driver is a 2000 Buick Century, one of the most popular and long lasting cars out there but it is full of fake materials compared to the classics. And people today are all about performance and road handling while I was more into a floating soft and quiet ride. Not one that you feel every bump and rock on the road. I am also in no hurry to get anywhere. I have been driving for over 40-years and never had an accident and always maintain posted speeds on the roads (not a speed demon).

And just think, most of the Cadillacs in those commercials are already in the junk piles!

Edited December 30, 2014 by X-Frame (see edit history)

[MarkV]

Well you know two things are funny about this. First, this Lincoln gets better mileage than my 1991 Lesabre did (3800 v6, and yes everything ran great on it). Also, another funny piece to the story is how one of the brothers kept asking me "what are you going to do with it" over and over! He thought I was going to resell it, that a young guy would not be interested in a car like this!

[John348]

I remember the long string of commercials with Led Zepplin songs in them but again, would a 60-year old in 2003 have bought a Cadillac based on the music? They were aiming for the younger buyers, not the ones who have spen their lives as devoted brand supporters. "This is not your Father's Cadillac" mentality and brings me back to trends as a selling factor again.

I really don't know of any lifelong Cadillac owners, most new first time Cadillac buyers are well into their 50's before they even walk into the showroom. I am not thinking about used cars in my statements, and niether is GM. They are looking at the 50 year old hopeing on selling him four more cars before he is no longer in the market.

Not just the 2003 Cadillacs but majority of ALL cars hit the scrap pile between 10-15 years old if they are not taken care of, maintained, and stored inside. I seldom see a car on the road older then 12 years old now. That is why I trade my everyday cars in every 5-6 years for the past 35 years. I really don't understand the point you are trying to make. You really think our hobby cars survived in huge numbers? Say what you want but these newer cars but they last a lot longer sitting outside then any car (other then a Delorean) made 15 years ago and older, you have to accept that cars did improove, it is supposed to with time. Better product, better sales, bigger profits= bottom line There were not too many cars that went over 100,000 miles with an engine overhaul, now 250,000 is considerd a high milage car

[Rusty_OToole]

"Rusty... the fact that Americans keep getting bigger is a matter of choice. Quit overeating!"

Evidently American car makers agree with you. If you don't fit in our cars you can go to hell. Unfortunately, they are going without buying American cars.

"I am 57 years old and still the correct weight for my height of 6'-4". My issue is leg and head room (and crunched up like a pretzel on an airplane)."

If you are 6'4" I dare say there are plenty of cars today that do not have enough head room and leg room. Try comparing a 1965 Ford Custom, Dodge Coronet or Chevrolet Biscayne sedan to the new Cadillacs and Lincolns and wonder why today's luxury cars can't match 50 year old low priced cars, even though they weigh 1000 pounds more and cost 10 times as much.

[John348]

Leg room is not the problem for me! I have not seen my feet for years gut is in the way.... I am 80 pounds overwieght, I like to eat. The easiest car or truck I own for me to get in out of is my (nobody will believe me) is my Cosworth Vega. I can only look at the backseat, if I did get in back there would take a call to 911 to get my fat a$$ out.

They really don't cost 10X more the buying power of the dollar is that much less so it is all in perspective. 1962 an Impala cost $3,200 +or- average yearly income was about $6,000 a 2015 Impala is about $37,000 and the average income is about $70,000...

At 6'4' your limited and have a problem fitting in a lot of cars both old and new! I would love to know how Shaq and Peyton Manning fit into the new Buicks for the commercial shoot

Edited December 31, 2014 by Biscayne John (see edit history)

[R W Burgess]

.............

I would love to know how Shaq and Peyton Manning fit into the new Buicks for the commercial shoot

There you go John. I have told my wife more than once I'd like to see them get inside those cars.

[X-Frame]

They really don't cost 10X more the buying power of the dollar is that much less so it is all in perspective. 1962 an Impala cost $3,200 +or- average yearly income was about $6,000 a 2015 Impala is about $37,000 and the average income is about $70,000...

At 6'4' your limited and have a problem fitting in a lot of cars both old and new! I would love to know how Shaq and Peyton Manning fit into the new Buicks for the commercial shoot

True, people tend to forget the cost of living factor differences.

As for Shaq fitting in a Buick here is how... look at this picture. His knees straddle the steering wheel. He is sitting on the floor and look at the seat track and where the seat back is - as far back as it can go up against the back seat. He is in it but how comfortable can you be driving this way? In my early line of work I have driven just about every kind of car made and there were some where my legs straddled the steering wheel and was both uncomfortable and dangerous (hard to reach the pedals this way).

[Rusty_OToole]

Believe it or not in the fifties or sixties a 6'4" tall man could go to the dealer in any brand of low priced car (Ford, Chevrolet or Plymouth) and buy a car he could fit into and drive comfortably. Today he can't, unless he wants to buy a truck type vehicle called an SUV. These SUVs weigh 2000 pounds more than the sedans or station wagons of the sixties. To me this is a disgrace and calls into question the intelligence of the auto industry leadership.

[Rusty_OToole]

Incidentally Shaque should try my old 1952 Chrysler New Yorker. He could not only drive it, he could take 3 of his team mates for a drive, and all have plenty of room.

4 average size men could go for a drive while wearing top hats.

[8E45E]

For years the only sales competition Lincoln and Cadillac had were each other, but they lost a huge market share to the european luxury cars and had found that there was new competition.

I have always considered the 1966 Fleetwood Brougham the pinnacle of Cadillac's postwar 'Standard of the World' for luxury. It actually outgunned Rolls Royce as far as luxury and performance. Even the build quality was best for the day. What made it so, was the huge amounts of GENUINE wood and leather used inside the interior of these cars. (Click the link in the first post here to see one: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?28846-1966-Cadillac-Fleetwood-Brougham&highlight=fleetwood ) Unfortunately, starting in 1967, the real wood trim diminished to nothing by 1971, and it was all plastic made to look like wood after that, while Rolls Royce, Mercedes Benz, BMW and others kept on producing cars with real leather and wood for their interiors. Clearly, the luxury car market was moving UP, and Cadillac and Lincoln were not! In fact, they went down-market in the interest of volume, and for a time, it worked until the hideous Cimarron made it go too far. When Cadillac was still downsizing, Rolls Royce introduced the Silver Spirit model which was larger in size than the Silver Shadow it replaced, and their sales increased. Mercedes and BMW also kept ahead with their 'bigger and better than the previous generation' S-Class and 7-series, respectively. Worse for Cadillac and Lincoln, Honda, Toyota and Nissan didn't sit still, either, and came out with marques that competed for Cadillac and Lincoln's business, effectively banishing the 'cheap tin box' image Japanese vehicles had in the '60's and '70's. While the 'boulevard ride' may be there in these Lincoln Town Cars, they still have a long ways to go to earn back their prominence they had 50 years ago.

Craig

[8E45E]

Believe it or not in the fifties or sixties a 6'4" tall man could go to the dealer in any brand of low priced car (Ford, Chevrolet or Plymouth) and buy a car he could fit into and drive comfortably. Today he can't, unless he wants to buy a truck type vehicle called an SUV. These SUVs weigh 2000 pounds more than the sedans or station wagons of the sixties. To me this is a disgrace and calls into question the intelligence of the auto industry leadership.

Reportedly, when Sherwood Egbert, who was also 6'4" tall, took over the Presidency of Studebaker-Packard in 1961 visited several Studebaker dealers in his first few months of assuming his new role. He stated he was appalled a their salesmanship, as for those who didn't recognize him, it took half a dozen visits before a salesman showed him how easy it was to fit his 6'4" frame into a Lark.

Craig

[60FlatTop]

Buy a car the same age as yourself. They fit pretty good:

Bernie