The Ressurection of Daphne - a 1932 DL

[Taylormade]

Well, that article says short lining to the front. I still trust the handy dandy Owners Book. Maybe the Dodge engineers had reasons for what they did. Or maybe they were wrong eighty years ago!

[ply33]

Well, that article says short lining to the front. I still trust the handy dandy Owners Book. Maybe the Dodge engineers had reasons for what they did. Or maybe they were wrong eighty years ago!

Might have something to do with Lockheed style brakes where the leading shoe does not help energize the trailing shoe. The diagram and explanation linked to in that earlier post seems to be more of a Bendix style setup.

 

I have not been successful in finding a period explanation for why Chrysler did it that way. Seems like for equal braking on both shoes you'd have the self-energizing (leading) shoe lining shorter than the non-self-energizing (trailing) shoe. Maybe there is a video training strip about that on the Imperial site.

[Taylormade]

I think the Lockeed angle is the answer. Several articles mention the self-energizing Bendix brakes. I can't find much on the Lockeed style. They're a different animal as all early Mopar fans know!

[Taylormade]

A bit more progress.  I have the pedal assembly finished and mounted on the frame.  There are several bolts with nuts that are attached inside the boxed frame.  I'm not sure how they did it at the factory, but it was a real pain.

 

 

 

 

 

It's a complicated setup.  This is the other half of the levers which are to be painted gray as they are attached to the bellhousing and were painted with the engine assembly.

 

 

Speaking of the engine, if it ever stops raining I'll wheel it out into the driveway and clean and paint it.  As far as I can tell (from the remains of the old factory paint) the engine, transmission, front mounting bracket and rear mounting bracket were assembled and then painted a greenish-gray as one unit.

 

You can see some of the original paint on the bellhousing.

 

 

 

The front and rear brackets will also be gray.

 

 

[Taylormade]

At one time or another some of the brake lines on my car were replaced.  There is a mixture of single and double flared ends on the lines.  On examining the large line that goes from the master cylinder to the distribution block, I was surprised to discover that this line (bigger than the 1/4 inch line on the rest of the system) is make of copper, not the copper coated steel line found on the rest of the car.  I assume it is original or very old, since it has single flares for the fittings.  I'm going to try and find some Cunifer line of this size to match the other new lines I'm installing, hopefully not in the 25 foot rolls it usually comes in as I only need about two feet of the stuff.

 

 

 

 

Just waiting for my resleeved master cylinder and brake cylinders to arrive to get the brakes done.  The brake pedal/master cylinder bracket is ready and waiting.

[keiser31]

That pedal assembly looks great! I am glad my '31 has fewer gadgets attached to it. What a big difference in some of the engineering Dodge made between the two years.

[Taylormade]

It may have something to do with the vacuum clutch, although mine was removed long before I ever bought the car the first time back in 1965.  At least I know it works in it's current configuration.

[keiser31]

That rear bracket and rubber mount is way different, too.

[Taylormade]

Does yours have the two mounts between the bellhousing extensions and the frame?  You can see in the photos of the motor/transmission that my belhousing has no extensions and is not attached to the frame at all.  The three things attaching the motor to the frame on my car are the front bracket (with a rubber mount between the bracket and the motor), the rear bracket (with a rubber mount between the bracket and the transmission housing) and the small leaf spring that attaches between the bottom of the bellhousing and the rubber mount on the side of the frame.  It truly is floating as in Floating Power.  The fact that the pedal bracket is mounted to the frame and the bellhousing is moving on the rubber mounts may also explain the complicated clutch mechanism.  Perhaps the lever system allows positive contact with the always moving engine/transmission.

[keiser31]

Mine has the rubber mounts on the bellhousing ears to frame and the front hoop to engine mount.

[Spinneyhill]

Was the water pump on the engine when the factory painted it? I understand it was for the 1930 cars (DD, DC). Also the tappet covers and the sump all the same colour? Minimum masking required if they did that...

Edited July 8, 2015 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Phil 32DL6]

Well, that article says short lining to the front. I still trust the handy dandy Owners Book. Maybe the Dodge engineers had reasons for what they did. Or maybe they were wrong eighty years ago!

Agreed that the manual shows the shorter linings towards the rear (although that clue is quite subtle).

 

Maybe it doesn't really matter? Whoever relined my shoes last (I think it was the immediate PO) came up with one solution...they're both the same length fore & aft. And in the 6 years I've been driving the car I can't say i've noticed any lack of stopping power.

[Taylormade]

Yeah, she stopped pretty good when I drove her and we didn't have any problems screeching to a halt when you were driving us around Detroit, Phil.  You're probably right.  I'll have to see what my linings look like when I get them back, but I believe my guy does one short and one long per factory specs.  If so, I'll follow the book.  I was pleased to find that the drums required very little turning and are well within spec.  No thicker linings were required.  I was also interested to discover that the brake line leading back to the rear axle has a factory installed union about six inches from where it passes through the frame.  You can see it in the brake line diagram in the Owners Book.  The brake lines are a bit of a hassle to bend to shape and that union must have been a bailout to make installation easier.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Taylormade (see edit history)

[Gunsmoke]

I think we need to give a bit more credit than we sometimes do to the engineers back then. I suspect the brake shoe lining configuration came about after a great many experiments with shoe linings of equal length and various combinations, both in research, and in producrtion. They would have been trying to have them as smooth braking as possible under all circumstances and speeds, while avoiding unnecessary lockup, chatter, differential braking (side-to-side, front-to-back), good reverse braking, etc while lasting as long as possible. So I'm inclined to go as factory suggests. Those who use equal brake linings and find them satisfactory likely have not put their car through the rigorous tests and extremes these cars would have faced in a few years of driving by numerous less then charitable owners! Do it by the book.

[Taylormade]

Was the water pump on the engine when the factory painted it? I understand it was for the 1930 cars (DD, DC). Also the tappet covers and the sump all the same colour? Minimum masking required if they did that...

 

I'm not an expert, but from the traces of what I believe are the original paint on the engine assembly, everything was gray, the sump, the water pump, tappet covers and the fan.  I'm not sure about the manifolds as there was no trace of paint left on them.  I have to believe that Dodge simply painted them the same color and the paint quickly burned off.  I will probably have them ceramic coated - not original but a lot more durable.

[Spinneyhill]

Wikipedia says this.

 

The single-leading-shoe drum brake (SLS), a.k.a. "leading/trailing drum brake", is a basic type of drum brake design.

The term "leading/trailing" means that only one shoe is "leading", moving into the rotation of the drum and thus exhibiting a self-servo (or self-applying) effect. The leading shoe is "dragged" into the friction surface of the drum and thus achieving greater braking force.^[1] The other shoe is "trailing", moving against the direction of rotation, is thrown away from the friction surface of the drum and is far less effective. An advantage of an SLS brake is that is equally effective whether the vehicle is travelling forwards or in reverse.^[1] When the vehicle is moving in reverse, the role of the leading and trailing shoes is switched. What would be the leading shoe when the vehicle is travelling forwards becomes the trailing shoe, and vice versa.^[1]

 

The trailing shoe is less efficient so it appears to me there is less material to save money and on weight.

 

From memory my 1939 Studebaker has a similar system to yours, as does the 1930 Dodge Brothers 8 (DC).

Edited July 9, 2015 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

I finally got up enough nerve to attempt making the brake lines.  This is a first time experience and it turned out to be quite easy and almost relaxing.  I used NiCopp nickle-copper alloy lines (not copper!) that match the look of the copper coated steel lines that came originally on the car.  They are very easy to bend and do not  flatten out even in sharp curves.  I was able to bend the lines by hand to match the original lines, but the finished job is very sturdy once everything is clamped into place.  I didn't realize how dusty everything is until I posted these photos!

 

 

 

 

The job was made easier by the Eastwood Brake Flaring Tool, which worked exactly as advertised and made perfect double flares every time.  Of course, I haven't pressurized the system yet, and if brake fluid comes spraying out of every fitting, I may change my mind.  But the flares were even, flat and perfectly formed - at least to my untrained eye, and the tool does not mark up the tube like the cheapo clamp tools do.

 

 

 

 

On to the front brakes tomorrow.

[Spinneyhill]

Your crown wheel is held on the carrier by the same system as the 1930 DC. Were all the lock tabs up and the bolts tight when you looked at them?

 

One of the bolts broke in my DC. Luckily the broken-off head fell down and was pushed through the back cover (hence the oil drained out) rather than going through the pinion gear. Every tab was in correct position and every bolt was loose, not even finger tight. No wonder one broke. The cover had been repaired after a previous similar failure, as had one of my spares. My thinking was it was a systemic failure so I used Unbrako bolts, drilled, torqued and then tied in pairs. Luckily it broke going over a speed hump at 5 mph in a car park.

 

I am enjoying your restoration, not least because the car and its systems are so similar to the DC.

[ply33]

Looks like modern bleeder screws you have on that rear axle. Is that intentional to make bleeding easier or are you missing the original style?

[Taylormade]

Looks like modern bleeder screws you have on that rear axle. Is that intentional to make bleeding easier or are you missing the original style?

 

Those are temp brake cylinders I used to get the line routing correct.  My original cylinders (being resleeved) and all the hardware will eventually be used.

 

Your crown wheel is held on the carrier by the same system as the 1930 DC. Were all the lock tabs up and the bolts tight when you looked at them?

 

One of the bolts broke in my DC. Luckily the broken-off head fell down and was pushed through the back cover (hence the oil drained out) rather than going through the pinion gear. Every tab was in correct position and every bolt was loose, not even finger tight. No wonder one broke. The cover had been repaired after a previous similar failure, as had one of my spares. My thinking was it was a systemic failure so I used Unbrako bolts, drilled, torqued and then tied in pairs. Luckily it broke going over a speed hump at 5 mph in a car park.

 

I am enjoying your restoration, not least because the car and its systems are so similar to the DC.

 

It's been awhile since I looked at the differential.  I'll check everything carefully before the cover goes back on.  Thanks for the heads up.

eventually go on the car.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Taylormade (see edit history)

[30dodge35]

Nice looking brake lines,

You seem to be in to tools, Do you have available a Amsco Brake Micrometer for setting brakes to drum .

[Bleach]

How does the tool work?

[30dodge35]

It measures Drum, up to .060 over side, then transfers over to shoe instaltion, takes about 15 per shoe, and very accurate, if brake are bleed you end up with a solid pedal,

Jesse

[Bleach]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Jesse. Does it work on any car with drum brakes or is something like this unnecessary on "newer" cars like something like my '56 Ford?

[keiser31]

I have wanted one of those for a long, long time.....like, since I was 13 years old when i got my first '31.

[Taylormade]

I don't have one.  I've bid on a few on EBay, but they quickly zoomed out of my pay scale.  I have drawings and pictures of a home-made tool that was posted on the P-15 D-24 site that looks like it would work.  My brake drums also have small access plates that allow you to get a feeler gauge in between the shoe and the drum for accurate measurements.  If anyone out there wants to rent their Ammco tool, let me know - I'll take good care of it.

[30dodge35]

I was visiting with Dan Tofflemire in Washington, we were discussing my spongy brakes on 35 KC, I had been using a homemade tool and a pressure bleed system. He showed me the Ammaco Gage and loaned it to me. I brought it to Louisana and set the shoes in a couple of hours. The brakes are solid and I have put a couple of thousand miles on it since. I pulled the Drums and inspected the shoes and they are wearing evenly.

I returned his tool and was able to purchase a complete set of tools on E-Bay.

I have used it on my 30 DA with the same results.

My DA doesn't, have slot to use feeler gage.

I don't use it on modern cars , they don't have four point adjustment, only bottom,and you can set from outside. You set shoes less than drum, install drum , then set drag from back side.

Taylormade, I probably out bid you! loL send me a PM

[ply33]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Jesse. Does it work on any car with drum brakes or is something like this unnecessary on "newer" cars like something like my '56 Ford?

I've heard that Ford used a similar setup for a lot of years but I have no idea if they were using that in '56.

 

One reason the Ammco 1750 tool (and possibly the Miller equivalent) are expensive nowadays is that a lot of people working on Fords are seeking them out too. I got lucky a number of years ago and picked up an Ammco 1750 for a reasonable amount of money before the prices started to skyrocket. I will loan it out but only to people local to me.

[Taylormade]

Continuing on with the brake lines.  The front passenger side line was very convoluted - lots of hills and curves that seemed unnecessary - but I've learned my lesson that most of this stuff was done for a reason.  Also, after proudly photographing my work, I discovered that the short, driver's side line was incorrect.  The original had rusted away in several places and I boldly bent the line they way I figured was correct.  Then I checked my notes and discovered that the line should go into the top of the junction, not the side.  Luckily it was the shortest line on the car, so I didn't waste much material.

 

 

Sure enough, once I got everything on I realized what all those bumps and curves were for.  The front motor cradle has to bolt on in this same area.  All those curves were to clear the cradle and allow access to the mounting bolts.  If I had taken a more straightforward approach and ignored the original lines, I would be doing everything over.

 

 

I was able to use the original clips, which was a relief since they are very hard to find.  Sorry about all the shop dust - makes the frame almost look rusty.

 

 

There were petrified remains of grommets in the frame holes where the brake lines pass through.  I'm surprise Dodge routed the brake and fuel lines on the outside of the frame.  It seems inside the frame would have been easier and safer.  You can see the grommets buried under the grease in this shot.

 

 

This after shot is a little cleaner.

 

 

I still have to run the long line back to the rear axle and then I'll be finished.  Both brake cylinders, master cylinder and brake shoes are all refurbished and in the mail.

 

Does anyone have a source for the large, thin nut that holds the brake hose to the frame extension seen in the shot above?  I need one for the back fitting.  I also need new star washers for all three fittings.

 

 

 

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

I think they are called shakeproof washers. They are available at good nuts and bolts supply houses. The thin nut is probably called a half height nut and is probably also available at a good nuts and bolts supply house. I bought one such a while ago but can't remember where.

[Ian_Greenlaw]

If you need the original hose clips that push into the body I think I have a few spare new ones. I'd have to go digging again.

[ply33]

I think they are called shakeproof washers. They are available at good nuts and bolts supply houses. The thin nut is probably called a half height nut and is probably also available at a good nuts and bolts supply house. I bought one such a while ago but can't remember where.

I think shakeproof is the official name but I've seen them also called star washers. They come in both internal and external teeth configuration. I agree that a good hardware store should have them.

 

If you need the original hose clips that push into the body I think I have a few spare new ones. I'd have to go digging again.

 

I think I may have some of the frame tube clips and also some of the spring locks that hold brake hoses and some brass fittings onto the frame too. I'll look through my stash to see if my memory is correct.

[Taylormade]

The clips would be great.  I have most of them, but a few disappeared over the years.

[ply33]

The clips would be great.  I have most of them, but a few disappeared over the years.

In the Plymouth parts book it looks like they changed the frame tube clip part numbers between '32 and '33. So it may be that the clips I have are wrong. Unfortunately I've lost my notes on where I got them and what the modern number for them was. I only have eight and would like to keep at least couple spares, but if they look right in the photos I can send some along. Just PM me with address, etc.

 

I am also attaching photos of the clips used, at least on '33, to secure the rear brake hose to the frame. When I got replacements back in the 80's I was able to find exact duplicates. It looks like you can get functional replacements from NAPA still but the photo on the Napa Online web site looks a bit different. If you need any of these, see: http://www.ply33.com/Parts/group5#392911

[countrytravler]

I don't have one.  I've bid on a few on EBay, but they quickly zoomed out of my pay scale.  I have drawings and pictures of a home-made tool that was posted on the P-15 D-24 site that looks like it would work.  My brake drums also have small access plates that allow you to get a feeler gauge in between the shoe and the drum for accurate measurements.  If anyone out there wants to rent their Ammco tool, let me know - I'll take good care of it.

You can borrow mine.

[countrytravler]

Brake tool

[Taylormade]

I started cleaning the motor today, getting ready for painting.  A few weeks ago I received my build sheet from Chrysler historical (lucky me, since I hear they are now not accepting requests until November) and it revealed a few interesting facts.  By the way, the charge for these early, prewar cars is only 25 bucks as they don't "translate" the information codes as they do on the later cars.

 

 

I always knew my car was an early DL, but not this early!  The DL was introduced on January 1, 1932.  From July to The end of December the earlier DH models were officially sold as 1932 Dodge Brothers cars.  My car was built on December 18, 1931, thirteen days before the DL model was even officially announced.  The first DL carried a serial number of 3558101.  I'm not sure of the actual build sequence, but if you go by serial numbers alone, it appears that my car (3559282) was the 1181th built.

The car was delivered to Rockville, Maryland, and the gentleman I purchased the car from in 1965 was from Maryland.  The L.H. SEDAN WIRE103 is pretty obvious since I have a left hand drive four door sedan with wire wheels, but the 103 - I have no idea what that means.

The motor number matches the motor in the car - another very early number.  The body number is also correct.  Under WHEELS it lists 2 WELLS, which is correct as I have a dual sidemount setup.  The PAINT AND TRIM CODE lists 20004BFC.  No idea here.  I know my car was originally and still is black. The factory chalk marks inside the body verify this.  I wonder what the BFC means?  I believe my car came with yellow wheels, a light straw color, and perhaps it refers to that.

Under REMARKS it reads PLATE, and I can only surmise that refers to plate, rather than laminated, glass.  My car did not come with laminated glass.  If anyone knows more about some of these codes, let me know.

 

The motor is cleaning up rather easily since it was hot tanked during the rebuild.  Mostly surface rust that wire brushes off with little effort.  I'm going to give it a rigorous wire brushing, followed by a good scrubbing with Dawn dish washing soap, forced air dry,  and a good washing with wax and grease remover before I apply the epoxy primer.

 

This is about ten minutes work.

 

 

 

The motor number is nice and clear.

 

 

I also noticed these four stampings at the same height as the motor number along the block.  The are stamped, not cast.

 

 

 

 

 

They read, from front to rear, P C C B (or maybe P, this stamp is a bit low).  No idea what they mean, but they must be there for a reason and appear to be factory stamped.

 

Finally, the casting marks.  I'm not sure if the 12-3 refers to the date of casting or if all blocks had that on them.

 

 

Just some interesting information on the car.  It's really nice to know she's almost totally original.

[Taylormade]

Came in from the garage and discovered a package containing my resleeved brake and master cylinders sitting on the front porch.  I had Hagen's do them and they look good. 

 

 

I was trying to find some NOS replacements, but these things are really tough to find.  The front cylinders are an unusual 1-3/8 inch bore with closely spaced bolt holes.  No luck anywhere trying to find those.  The rears are the more common 1-1/4 inch bore, but almost everyone sells a stepped version of this cylinder.  I finally caved and had them resleeved in stainless.  Took a little over a week door to door and they look great.  65 bucks each including the rebuild kit.

 

 

 

The master cylinder is still available, but I just had mine resleeved.  I don't know if the MC is original, but it's been on the car since at least 1965.  Hagen's put it together for me.  My brake shoes are in the mail, the brake lines are done, so the brakes should be finished this week.

 

 

[ply33]

My guess is the BFC on your paint & trim might be for Bedford cord which was typically a slightly higher priced interior option than mohair in that era.

 

I think those other stamped letters on your block are inspection stamps giving some information about the original cylinder bore sizes/tolerances.

[Taylormade]

My guess is the BFC on your paint & trim might be for Bedford cord which was typically a slightly higher priced interior option than mohair in that era.

 

I think those other stamped letters on your block are inspection stamps giving some information about the original cylinder bore sizes/tolerances.

 

Good catch.  My car does have a Bedford Cord interior.  That was also my guess on the stamped letters, but I'm surprised there are only four, not six.