Taylormade

The Ressurection of Daphne - a 1932 DL

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They were about $380 each, not cheap but totally new except for the casing and end pieces.

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I posted this elsewhere but thought i might catch someone's attention on this thread.

Subject: 1932 Dodge DL Transmission
Problem: Confused restorer

I'm working on my 32DL tranny and have run into a problem. It's the classic Chinese Puzzle and I'm just plain stuck.

1_zpsa07a5131.jpg

I'm taking off all the Floating Power motor and transmission mounts to send in to Tom Hannaford to have them revulcanized. The transmission sets in a rubber cradle that's bolted to a stamped metal bracket that bolts into the X member of the frame. I got the rubber mount off with no problem - half of it is attached to the tranny and the other half to the bracket. Now I want to slide the bracket off so I can clean everything up.

3_zps4b5ecee7.jpg

Here is the transmission with the bracket (in blue) just sitting in place. It's not attached to the tranny in any way at this point and will rotate and slide forward and back. It's actually upside down in this shot and the two holes are where the rubber mount was attached inside the bracket. I should be able to just slide it over the emergency brake drum. BUT NO! Notice the emergency brake support pointed out in the photo. The nuts on the studs that hold it on came off just fine, however when I try to pull it forward to clear the studs, it hits the edge of the emergency brake drum before it can clear. I also can't get the studs out as they hit the brake drum before they are completely unscrewed. With this support bracket there, I can't slide the large bracket over the brake drum.

No big deal, right? Just take off the emergency brake drum - I'm going to need to have it turned to clean up some grooves in the surface, anyway - and then the brake support will slide off and so will the big bracket.

So, from the owner's manual it looks like the emergency brake drum is held on by a large nut on the shaft coming out of the free-wheeling portion of the tranny. Looking things over, that bolt must be under the front U-joint. So, I have to take off the U-joint. Here is the U-joint highlighted in green.

4_zps1439fda8.jpg

It's held on by lots of bolts - just like at the rear axle. So I start to take them off - after carefully marking the position to keep everything the same when it goes back together. With a little effort, the bolts loosen up. It's then that I realize they are held on by nuts inside the drum. So I go back to the rear of the drum to see if there is enough room to get a wrench in there to hold the nuts. Hmmmm... Dodge has thoughtfully provided a plate that covers the drum. You can see it highlighted in purple. It apparently keeps the dirt - and me - out. It's bolted on, and doesn't spin with the drum, but even if I get the bolts out, I can't get it out of there without taking off the drum, which I can't do because...

5_zps34d56fd0.jpg

So, I can't get to the nuts, to remove the U-joint, to remove the drum, to slide off the band support, to slide off the trans bracket. Has anyone done this - and how the heck did you do it? It obviously can be done - they put it together in the factory - I just can't figure it out.
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Edited by Taylormade (see edit history)

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They were about $380 each, not cheap but totally new except for the casing and end pieces.

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I dont think that is a bad price at all and considering the little use they will get I am sure the repairs will outlast both of us

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I would use an air tool to buzz the bolts out and worry about how to put it back together later. If you needed to you could apply a bit of pressure on the rear of the bolt head to hold the nut in position which using the gun. It doesn't make sense that you cannot take the u-joint off of there as that is a maintenance item.

Steve

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I replied on the other post regarding your dilemma.

This continues to be an amazingly enjoyable and informative thread! If there is another ongoing thread with information on this project can someone post a link to it?

Thanks again for all the progress updates!

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This continues to be an amazingly enjoyable and informative thread! If there is another ongoing thread with information on this project can someone post a link to it?

Thanks again for all the progress updates!

I think this is the other thread referred to: http://forums.aaca.org/f143/technical-help-needed-366470.html

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I would use an air tool to buzz the bolts out and worry about how to put it back together later. If you needed to you could apply a bit of pressure on the rear of the bolt head to hold the nut in position which using the gun. It doesn't make sense that you cannot take the u-joint off of there as that is a maintenance item.

Steve

I had a similar idea, but if you look closely at the bolts you will see they are very close to the housing. There isn't enough room to get a socket on there. The only thing you can use to loosen the bolts is an open-ended wrench. I know there is a simple answer to this problem and I'll probably be slapping my head once I discover it, but for now all I can do is scratch my head.

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Hmm, I guess there's only one other solution then. It probably isn't firmly held onto the transmission and can just be pulled off the shaft?

Steve

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Hmm, I guess there's only one other solution then. It probably isn't firmly held onto the transmission and can just be pulled off the shaft?

Steve

I wish, but the owner's manual cutaway drawing shows a big old nut holding it on. I'm heading out to the garage to try again and I'll post any progress - or lack thereof.

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Solved!

As usual, the solution turned out to be simple and logical once I thought about it. There had to be some way to get back inside the emergency brake drum. I looked for some sort of access hatch in the dust cover, but couldn't see anything through the grease and crud. It's the piece highlighted in purple in this photo:

5_zps34d56fd0.jpg

I could see that the plate was held on by small bolts and was pleased to find that they came out - once I found them all, they looked like little round blobs before a scraped them clean - and did not have a nut on the other side, but screwed into a threaded fitting. As soon as I had the first two bolts off, half the plate fell away. That was the secret - it's in two pieces so it can come off and doesn't have to slip off the shaft. I suspected this might be the case yesterday, but I couldn't find any trace of a seam under all the crud.

Here's the little bugger in all its glory.

IMG_3343_zpsf69e6741.jpg

Once I had both pieces off, I could get access to the inside of the emergency brake drum and with a socket wrench with a U-joint extension, I could hold the nut and turn the bolts out. Once they were free the U-joint came right off.

IMG_3341_zpsc2f0e93b.jpg

And there was the big nut staring me right in the face. I got it off with a little work, then used a puller to remove the flange from the shaft and transmission seal. It was a bear to get off, but finally began to move and then the puller got it off the shaft.

IMG_3342_zpsab160a18.jpg

Now the brake drum and the brake band support bracket came free with no obstructions.

IMG_3345_zpscad941de.jpg

Finally, my original purpose could be accomplished. With everything out of the way, the transmission support bracket could be slid off the trans.

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Now the transmission is stripped down and ready for cleaning and inspection. Notice the free-wheeling extension on the back.

IMG_3348_zps97e8cf49.jpg

Thanks for all the help and advice!

Edited by Taylormade (see edit history)

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I'm getting ready to clean and assemble my rear axle. I posted a thread about this some time ago here:

http://forums.aaca.org/f143/rear-axle-advice-346213.html

I solved many of the problems I was asking about and thought I'd get everyone up to date. First my previous questions:

What is the best tool to pull the axle and the outer bearing cup out of the housing without damaging anything?

It turns out no tool was needed - with the brake backing plate off I just slipped the brake drum back on and put the axle nut on a few turns. This let the brake drum slide back and forth on the axle for maybe a half inch or so. I pulled the drum forward sharply several times and the imtact against the nut pulled the bearing cup and axle right out of the housing. This may not be a good idea if you are going to save the bearings, but I checked them afterwards and didn't detect any damage.

What is the best tool to pull the inner race out? There isn't much of a lip to catch or attach any puller to, and it's pretty deep inside there.

This was easily accomplished with a rental tool made for the job -something I obviously should have checked for in the first place. It worked so well I forgot to take a photo of it, but it's just the usual three pronged claw with a slide hammer attached. It did the job in nothing flat - once I noticed I wasn't grabbing the bearing cup but the lip that holds the inner seal in place. Lucky I didn't break the axle! Once I was hooked on to the cup, it came off with six or seven good pulls.

Do the roller bearings have to be pressed on the axle by a machine shop? How do I get the old ones off?

I haven't gotten this far, so I have no answer. It was suggested I cut them off with a cutting disk, and I suppose that will work since I plan to replace them. More on that when I actually remove them.

Now for the actual reason for this post. I'm trying to figure out exactly how the axle end play is set up. According to the owner's manual, the only "shop manual" available, the end play is determined by shims placed deep into the axle assembly. Why they would make this so difficult mystifies me. Here's how the axle goes together...

First the cutaway of the housing.
axlehousing_zps2ebe0403.jpg

Next the inner seal is put into place.
Innersealinstalled_zps11dc63c3.jpg

Now this is the point where the shims that determine axle play go in. You stack them to get the correct clearance. The blue indicates the shims.
Shimsinstalled_zps22e5d176.jpg

The inner bearing cup is driven in and rests against the shims.
Innercupinstalled_zps8dff6afa.jpg


Now you press both bearing races on the axle. Notice the raised lip that locates both races which are driven on from both ends of the axle.
bearingsonaxle_zpse9c98bbf.jpg

Now the axle goes in the housing with the inner bearing race seating in the inner bearing cup.
axleinstalled_zpsa01c533e.jpg

Finally, the outer bearing cup is installed by driving it into the axle housing.
outercupinstalled_zps011bda6e.jpg

The brake backing plate is now installed and this plate forces the outer bearing cup in to its final position.
BACKINGPLATEINSTALLED_zps7130f9a5.jpg

Now you can determine the axle play with an end guage, BUT according to the manual, if it's not correct, you have to take everything apart back to the installation of the shims and add or remove shims to get the play correct!

Now I'm sure the engineering experts out there are going to correct me, but what difference does it make if the shims are all the way back in the housing, or are just installed at the outer portion of the housing, here:
shimsfront_zpse87f1395.jpg

According to Phil, the previous owner, there were no shims in the housing when he took it apart years ago. I have been told there is a source for them if I need them. Any opinions as to why I couldn't shim the front and get the same result as the factory recommendation? All you are doing is making sure the length of the space between the back of the housing and the front is correct so there is proper axle play. I can't believe that shimming up front would move the axle back toward the differential enough to cause any problems. Then again, I have been proven wrong - more times than I'd like to admit.


Edited by Taylormade (see edit history)

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The 1933 Plymouth owner's Instruction Book and the 1934 Plymouth factory service manual both show the shims on the inside. I can't recall if I had any shims in mine or not. If I did I think I would have just put them back where I found them. And it beats me why it would make any difference if the were on the inside or outside. The few thousandths of an inch is not going to make any alignment difference for the brake drum or, I think, clearance in the differential.

I did not watch the machine shop when they took off my old bearings and pressed on the new. I suspect they used a bearing splitter to get the old ones off but maybe they cut them off.

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On the newer rear ends (8 3/4) the axles reach each other so you adjust one side to set end play for both sides.

I would think that if the axle is up against the other or some other bottom it would explain the shims on the inside.

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This is from Dyke's Encyclopedia, 1943 Edition:

"In adjusting wheel bearings, remember that the two drive shafts, right and left, come in contact in the center of the differential spider. If the bearing on one side is adjusted in too far, while the bearing on the other side is adjusted too far out, the spline end of the shaft will project through into the other side of the differential. This will either lock the differential or cause the end of the shaft to be twisted off. Care must be used, therefore, to take up the same amount on both right and left-hand bearings."

So, placing the shims outside the bearings wouldn't allow you to adjust (eliminate) the play between the inner ends of the shafts.

Edited by Phil 32DL6 (see edit history)

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This is from Dyke's Encyclopedia, 1943 Edition:

"In adjusting wheel bearings, remember that the two drive shafts, right and left, come in contact in the center of the differential spider. If the bearing on one side is adjusted in too far, while the bearing on the other side is adjusted too far out, the spline end of the shaft will project through into the other side of the differential. This will either lock the differential or cause the end of the shaft to be twisted off. Care must be used, therefore, to take up the same amount on both right and left-hand bearings."

So, placing the shims outside the bearings wouldn't allow you to adjust (eliminate) the play between the inner ends of the shafts.

So it seems the implication is that you aren't setting the bearing play like you would in a front wheel but rather compensating for manufacturing variations in the length of the axle housing and axle shafts. That would also imply that if you are simply putting in new bearings you'll probably be close by just re-installing the shims you found when disassembling. Of course you should check things when together, but you probably won't need to disassemble multiple times using trial and error to get it right.

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So, placing the shims outside the bearings wouldn't allow you to adjust (eliminate) the play between the inner ends of the shafts.

This is why I wondered if putting the shims on the outside would cause the axles to move to far inward. However, I can't believe that that tiny distance could make the ends meet in the center. Certainly the axles aren't that closely machined during manufacture that a few thousands would make any difference. Again, I'm often wrong!

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Yes, it's the length of the axle housing area for the bearings. You're shimming to make that distance correct for axle shaft end play. It also states that "the two axle shafts are entirely independent of one another. In order to make this adjustment it is necessary to remove the axle shaft and bearings, including the cup of the inner bearings. The shims may then be removed."

The fact that there were no shims in the axle when we drove it, Phil, leads me to believe, since they were as far inward as possible without the shims, that there is no way the axles could touch.

One suggestion was to clamp the bearing cups on the bearings on the axle, measure the length of the assembly. Then measure the depth of the axle housing and subtract the difference. This would give you the play without shims. You could then install the correct shims to get everything in spec. Whether I can accurately measure the depth of the housing is another matter. ;)

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I'm thinking that while you've got the differential cover off, you may be able to see what's going on with the ends of the axles to determine if shims are needed and, if so, maybe what thickness.

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When I worked in a garage I always cut old bearings off with a torch. You can get the bearing race red hot and then hit the air to split the race. The shaft doesn't normally show any signs of the operation if the person who's doing it is good at it.

Steve

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With the seal being in that position, how do the bearings get lube? I just rebuilt a rear end assembly on a 48 Chrysler. The outer bearing is lube with a greace fitting on the axle near the backing plate. The outer bearings do not relpost-78906-143142381567_thumb.jpgy fluid from the pig assembly.

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With the seal being in that position, how do the bearings get lube?

Don't worry about too little grease getting to the bearing. I once had an over-enthusiastic grease monkey fill my brake drum with grease because he didn't know when to stop! A little goes a long way.

Here's a diagram from the '32 DL manual that shows how the grease fitting by-passes the grease seal and lubricates the bearing.

post-61720-1431423816_thumb.jpg

Edited by Phil 32DL6 (see edit history)

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The winter weather is slowing down progress. Although we are up to a balmy 21 degrees today, there isn't much I can do since most of the cleaning and derusting has to be done outside - or the inside of the garage would look like a grease storm just went through - and painting is not going to happen until it warms up.

This shot of my garge/workshop says it all -


IMG_3362_zps97c04cf6.jpg

Better news with the springs on the old DL. After I posted shots of the disassembled springs a while ago, several folks from the Dodge Brothers Club thaough they might be too rusted to be safe.

IMG_3310_zps700f5c22.jpg


Just what I needed, another thing to worry about. They suggested taking them to a spring shop to have them checked out. I checked the good old web, hoping to find someone close, and, much to my surprise, there was St. Louis Leaf Spring right across the river in (where else?) St. Louis. On their website they mentioned they had been in business since 1945 in the same location. That sounded good, so I loaded up the springs - all 32 leaves - and hauled them over, hoping the thirty minute drive would be worthwhile.

I arrived at an old building that did indeed look like it had been there for almost seventy years. I went in and explained my problem and they said, "bring them in." After a short examination, my springs were deemed slightly pitted, but solid and safe to reuse. They offered to heat them up in their oven to remove scale and rust. They also noticed that the eye bushings in my rear springs were incorrect. They were too large in diameter and whoever installed them had forced the spring eyes and enlarged them. This was bad news. Where the heck was I going to get new bushings? I was actually going to ask them to press out the remains of the bolt that was still stuck in one of the bushings, but since they were both inncorrect and the eye had been forced out of shape, I figured I was sunk.

That's when the old guy at the counter whipped out a book that looked as old as he was and checked out what bushings were necessary. He then walked over to the shelves behind him and pulled out a set of NOS bushings. He said they would reshape my spring eye to the correct diameter and install the bushings, plus install new bronze bushings in the front springs.

An hour and a half later, I loaded my assembled springs back in the car and drove home. I was amazed they still had the correct bushings at the shop. He also gave me a new set of bolts, a welcome gift as I had cut one in pieces getting it off the mount.

IMG_3364_zpsba2d1b2a.jpg

One thing I can work on down the basement - where it's warm - is the wood inside the body. Although the DL has an all steel body, there are pieces of wood bolted on inside to attach interior trim above the doors and around the back window. My wood looked pretty good at first. There was absolutely no rot or decay, but the wood was very dry and full of staples where the trim had been attached. I started removing the staples and nails, and the wood started to split. There were also areas that had been sanded at an angle and the wood at the top of the angle was very thin. This was all split and some pieces had already fallen off. I think some of the splitting actually happened at the factory when it was originall installed. The only remedy was new wood - not that big a job. I still have to sand the edges and those angle sands in the back (so it can clear parts of the metal body framework), but they are about finished.

IMG_3369_zps84de1223.jpg

IMG_3367_zps920931aa.jpg


My frame should be back from the powder coater as soon as it warms up enough to sandblast. Their sandblasting equipment was frozen solid the other day! Once that is back, I have a clean base to start putting things back together.

Edited by Taylormade (see edit history)

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i am always amassed at the help and knowledge some of these guys have. And when you find an old store like these and explain what your doing they are even more helpful.

like your pic of the shed......I believe overnight here was one of the hottest on record.... 32c and yesterday was 43c in the shade. Needless to say I didn't venture out to the garage. Looking forward to a cool change today

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Thank goodness for places like 'St Louis leaf spring'. Too many of these skilled people have gone to the wall.

You have snow; Ian has record high temps; and we have too much rain. January here was the wettest ever and many homes have been flooded.

There is so much water here that us Brits are evolving webbed feet!

Ray.

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