The Ressurection of Daphne - a 1932 DL

[Spinneyhill]

Yep. Helix direction is given on D-21-2 in the parts book. That is a RH helix. So part number is 377583, main drive pinion.

 

It fits DC after E192LD and 4504522,

DH after 3549240 US built and 9451837 Canadian built;

DI after 9902119 Canadian built,

DJ,

DG after 4516444 US built and 9550578 Canadian built,

DL up to 3566469 LHD domestic, 3567245 LHD export, some RHD export,

DK up to 4525014, all except 5 Coupe and up to 4525062 5 Coupe.

 

Plus the plymouths as above.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

My Master Parts list is a Faxon repro from ebay. It is pretty good, but of course the photos are not as good as the original, but still good.

[X-Frame]

That's going to remain a mystery for now. I squirmed under my DL and found I have exactly the same thing as you do: an empty bracket with no obvious function. Anybody else have a clue?

Before I took a look I was guessing it might have been something to do with the mounting of the original exhaust system since I know for a fact your exhaust system is not original. I had a new system installed around 1968 at Midas or Sears. A round muffler (like on my present DL) is the original style.

 

 

If no one has responded this late in the game, I will with a brochure illustration that shows this is part of the exhaust bracket:

[Taylormade]

Well, want to know why I never go to Vegas?  Turns out a fellow Dodge Brothers Club member had an extra pinion shaft.  Since they changed the direction of the helix on the gear about mid-way through the production year, I knew I had a fifty-fifty chance of it being the right one.  I shot craps.  It was from a very late car and had gear tooth direction the opposite of mine.  Why the heck they changed it is beyond me!

 

So, back to square one.  Anybody out there want to opine on using my existing pinion with the chipped gear?  It's hard to understand why this particular gear chipped since it is a non-sliding, constant mesh gear.  Its sole function is to turn the countershaft below.  Could I just smooth it out a bit and go with it?  I don't really want to take the easy (and perhaps foolish) way out, but I also want to drive this car before I take the big dirt nap and at my age that may be any at time.

 

What do you think?

 

[Taylormade]

For the Plymouth guys...

 

I'm looking for a transmission main drive pinion shaft, part number 377583.

 

It fits - 

PA after 1647280

PB  to engine number PB-4404

PB from engine number PB-55998 to engine number PB-81452 US built and after 9308483 Canadian built.

 

The reason for the varying serial numbers is that some cars had a right helix gear and other a left helix,  I need a right helix.

 

The part looks like this.  The roller bearing is still attached to the shaft in the photo.

 

 

 

 

Interested in a complete transmission if all else fails.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Taylormade (see edit history)

[zeke01]

How well I know the feeling. Yesterday I was under my '23 Hudson doing some maintenance and looked at the ragged teeth on the flywheel. I started the car today for the first time in six years, The starter spun that super six just like the flywheel teeth were brand spankin' new For me, its a fight for another day. Zeke

[Taylormade]

For the Dodge guys...

From the Spinneyhill post, #761 above.  Would be interested in a complete transmission.

 

It fits DC after E192LD and 4504522,

DH after 3549240 US built and 9451837 Canadian built;

DI after 9902119 Canadian built,

DJ,

DG after 4516444 US built and 9550578 Canadian built,

DL up to 3566469 LHD domestic, 3567245 LHD export, some RHD export,

DK up to 4525014, all except 5 Coupe and up to 4525062 5 Coupe.

[Scotts_DG8]

You mention above that it may also be found in a DG trans. Don't hold your breath but there is a chance that I might have one, the shaft specifically you have pictured. Let me have a look and I'll get back to you and let you know in a day or two (Sunday evening) at most. Scott...

Edited August 29, 2015 by Scotts_DG8 (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

Thanks, Scott.  The most important thing is the angle of the gear teeth.  If it matches my photo we would be good to go.

[Spinneyhill]

There is a Hollander for 1920s to 1948 or so ($47 at Hollander.com). It may show you can use a gear out of another make entirely. It is a BW box I suppose?

[Scotts_DG8]

I altered my planned activities and took a bit of time today and did find the shaft I thought I had. I was also worried that maybe you did hold your breath, so maybe you can exhale now. I think that this is what you are looking for, yes?. Let me know, I'll check back later tonight to see what you think as I have a few other things to still get done today. Scott...

 

 

 

 

 

[Taylormade]

That sure looks like the one!  The helix is right and if it is out of a DG, it should fit.  I sent you a PM.

[Ian_Greenlaw]

Don't you love this forum !!!!!

[Spinneyhill]

Aren't you a lucky hamster! Remember to measure diameters, lengths and count teeth and splines to be sure - including the internal fitting for the main shaft to run in.

[keiser31]

I was pretty certain Scott had one for you, but did not want to get your hopes up in case he didn't.

[Taylormade]

Yes, this forum is really something else. There is no way my restoration would be as far along as it is without the kindness, knowledge, humor, advice and criticism from its members. You have found parts for me, guided me through difficult projects, showed me the way, pointed out my many errors, been generous in your praise and basically kept me going when I was about to throw in the towel - a very greasy towel, by the way.

Back in the seventies I attempted to restore a 1929 Plymouth Model U. I never finished it. I remember the only resources were word of mouth and Hemmings. I wrote letters and waited weeks for a response, attended swap meets and found very little, Hershey being the exception. I completed the frame, replaced most of the wood and then ran out of gas. I had it almost thirty years before I sold it to a wonderful gentleman in the Plymouth Owners Club who finished the job beautifully. He has since passed on. I did finish restoring a nice 66 Dart GT convertible, did much work on a nice original 48 Plymouth sedan my wife and I enjoyed taking for Sunday drives, and surrendered my rust bucket Dodge Wayfarer Sportabout convertible to buy Daphne - my first and unrequited love ( in the car world, of course.)

So thanks to everyone for helping me along. Sometimes when I'm feeling low and wondering if I'll ever get this restoration done, I look back at early posts and realize how much I've actually accomplished. And I always end up reading the replies and responses and get a big grin on my face remembering all the help everyone has offered.

[countrytravler]

Love it when a plan comes together. Also with the forum, it furnishes a lot of info and knowledge. Takes a lot of time to post and we appreciate it. Thanks to everyone that participates. I have learned a lot from this thread. What professional and unselfish info that you have shared Mr Taylor!! Thanks for that.

Dave

[Taylormade]

After discovering the damaged pinion shaft gear I decided to take a deep breath and disassemble the transmission to see if any other horrors were lurking below the surface.  This was a big step for me as I have never in my life worked on a tranny.  Using the very detailed drawings in the owners manual I slowly took everything apart.

The main thing I found is that this thing is chock full of shims and spacers, some of them very thin and fragile.  It was such a greasy, sticky mess inside the case that some of them stuck inside their recesses or onto the bearing surfaces.  I had to be really careful to preserve all of them as the book states in no uncertain terms that they must be used for correct clearances in the transmission.  This, of course, begs the point that has enough wear occurred that the spacers no longer provide the correct clearances?  Some of this stuff is simply not available, so I hope when I measure the end play all will be well.

 

This is what I found inside.  Actually, not as complicated as I feared since there are no syncros to deal with.  Reverse gear and shaft in the upper left.  Countershaft with support shaft, bearings, spacers and shims below that.  Mainshaft in the upper right, surrounded by the sliding gear - first and reverse, the sliding clutch, the front bearing and the spacers and snap ring.  The pinion gear and front bearing are not shown.  All the stuff below the parts mentioned goes to the free wheeling unit with the exception of the drive pinion bearing retainer.  Everything is cleaned and ready to go back in.

 

 

Reverse angle.

 

 

Once everything was out, I cleaned the inside of the case.  There was a good 1/8" of crud on all the inner surfaces.  I didn't find any metal shavings or metal grit, just dirt and hardened grease.  The car had been sitting for forty-five years, so this wasn't unexpected.  Now I'm. glad I took everything apart so I could clean all the parts and the case.  Even though I had scrubbed the inside of the case when it was still assembled with a flex-handle brush, I hadn't made a dent in the real dirt..  There was also a gear tooth at the bottom of the case, so embedded in the gunk that i didn't see it until I had the case almost cleaned out.  It didn't match the broken gear tooth on the pinion shaft and all other gear teeth were intact, so I have to assume this transmission was worked on at some point and the damaged gear removed and replaced.  There were a couple of lock washers missing when I disassembled, so I believe this unit was repaired in the past.

 

Before (you can see a bit of wire brush action at the bottom of the photo)....

 

 

And after....

 

 

I then examined the roller bearings...

 

 

The roller bearings did not sound very good and I figured I would never be able to find them as they are in a shield with a snap ring around them in a slot on the outer circumference, but a quick trip to the bearing company in Decatur, Illinois turned out to be quite a surprise.  The counter guy took one look and said, "Hell, yea, I can get them for you.  Might take a day or two."  That was a big relief.  I also got a new seal for the rear of the transmission/free wheeling unit and a Speedi-Sleeve for the driveshaft connection.  I'll give you the numbers when I pick them up.  My new pinion shaft went out today - thanks Scott! - and once I get it and pick up the bearings I ought to be able to put this all back together.

[Phil 32DL6]

Dick...you are one brave dude! 

[Taylormade]

Crazy, maybe, foolhardy for sure. 

[Scotts_DG8]

Correct, it did ship out this morning and is on its way. Scott...

[Taylormade]

Look what arrived on my doorstep courtesy of the USPS.  Sent Monday, arrived today. 

 

 

I measured everything and it's exactly the same as the broken shaft that came out of Daphne.  Thanks again, Scott, you were a lifesaver!

(That's not a nick on the new gear at the bottom - it's a drop of oil reflecting the light of the flash.)

 

 

Meanwhile, I'm putting the transmission back together.  I have the countershaft and reverse idler gear assembled - love the green assembly lube.  This part of the job went very smoothly.  It was a bit tricky as there are small parts and shims at both ends of the countershaft and you have to try and hold it all together while you're putting this very heavy part in place.  I discovered the best way to get it in the case was to set the case on end and slide the countershaft in vertically.  That way I only had to hold the shims and bearing on the bottom of the shaft as I slid it in.

 

 

At the bottom (front) of the shaft are two shims and a flat bronze bearing that key into two pegs on the countershaft.  All three rotate with the shaft.

 

 

 

The top ( back) of the countershaft takes this square spacer with nibs that key onto the gear teeth and another flat bronze bushing.  The square piece turns with the shaft and the bushing floats between the shaft and the side of the case.

 

 

 

Although the countershaft shows little sign of wear, these smaller parts did show a bit of the 60 thousand odd miles they have traveled.  There was some light scoring that looks worse in the photos than it actually is.  I can't find a source for these parts so I elected to put them back in.  Everything spins very smoothly with absolutely no noise, so I think it will be alright.  All three bearings in the unit were, however, in poor shape.  As I posted earlier, these can still be found at your local bearing dealer, so all new ones will be going in. 

 

I'm really glad I decided to take the transmission apart.  The three bad roller bearings were a disaster waiting to happen.  The front bearing on the pinion shaft sounded like a lawnmower engine after I cleaned it up and spun it.  It wouldn't have lasted another thousand miles.

[Scotts_DG8]

I'm glad that it arrived in one piece and is what you needed. It looks like your back to making progress and we all can sit back again and wait for more of your amazing detailed updates we all like to see/read. Scott...  PS, your welcome.

[keiser31]

EXCELLENT!

[Spinneyhill]

I hope you didn't spin the bearing dry. It can damage them, so I read. I used to do it with gay abandon, spinning it on the air gun, until I read the dire warnings.

[keiser31]

I hope you didn't spin the bearing dry. It can damage them, so I read. I used to do it with gay abandon, spinning it on the air gun, until I read the dire warnings.

Sounds like he's getting new bearings, anyways, but yes, spinning a bearing with an air gun is very dangerous.

[Taylormade]

No, I learned that lesson long ago. I just spun it by hand and listened to it grind. The bearing on the pinion shaft that Scott sent me actually seems pretty smooth. I'll have the bearing guy check it when I pick up my new bearings.

[Taylormade]

Spent Labor Day with fellow Dodge Brothers Club member Larry Yirga working on the transmission of his very nice 1932 DK sedan.  We got a few problems ironed out, but discovered that the replacement countershaft we were putting in had a reverse helix from the one in the tranny.  Same problem I had trying to find a correct pinion shaft.  So Larry will be driving with a chipped tooth in the countershaft until he can find a replacement.  We discovered that the DK and DL transmissions are very much alike, but not the same.  The DK has a larger reverse gear and a wider area for it in the case. 

 

I was also very lucky as Larry loaned me his splash pans for his DL, three parts I have been searching for since I bought the car. 

 

 

 

I'm heading to Columbia, Missouri Friday to drop them off at master metal worker Ed Thomas' shop where he will make me a repo set.  After seeing Ed's work on my car's body and fenders the tool box and battery support, I'm sure these will turn out just like the originals.  Larry was very generous to trust me with these hard to find parts, and I'm sure glad there are folks like him in the hobby willing to help others.

 

I still need two more bearings for the transmission, and I'm supposed to pick up them tomorrow. Then I can finish assembling the unit.  Working on Larry's helped me out on that score.  Here is a shot of the original bearing on the left and the new one on the right.  Some differences in the inner and out races, but the dimensions (OD and ID) are exactly the same as the original.  The spacing of the clip ring is also the same.

 

 

As soon as I have all three bearings, I'll post the modern numbers for those who might need them.

 

I also cleaned up the emergency brake parts and have them ready for paint.  There are more small parts on the transmission than almost any other area on the car.  I'm glad I took lots of reference pictures.

 

 

Grinding along on the small jobs, but I'm getting close to finishing the frame.  It always seems to take at least twice as long as I originally figure to get things done.

[Taylormade]

I finally got all my new bearings.  The bearing shop in Decatur, Illinois had to get them out of their warehouse in Tennessee, so it took a few days.  As I said before, these are apparently still being used and are no problem to obtain. 

 

The new bearings on top and the old below.

 

 

In case you need these for a DL transmission, here are the numbers:

 

Pinion shaft bearing - 6207ZZNR (NSK bearing)

 

Mainshaft bearing - 208KDDG (Timken bearing)

 

Free wheeling bearing - 206KDDG (Timken bearing)

 

I'm not sure why they got me a NSK for the pinion shaft, but it looks identical to the Timkens.

 

Everything fit like a glove using the original spacers.  The pinion shaft bearing is an interference fit on the shaft.  Once it's seated, shims are used to locate it in the correct position and a snap ring holds everything in place.

 

 

 

 

With the pinion shaft installed, you can see the recessed groove where the outer snap ring on the bearing fits into the case.

 

 

The bearing retainer also has a recessed groove and shims that locate the bearing correctly in the case.

 

 

 

That last shot was taken before I cleaned up the shims.

 

Once the retainer is in place, the bearing is locked into the correct position.

 

 

Specifications for maximum end play in the second speed helical gear is .002 according to the Owners Manual.  After I had everything together, I measured mine at .001, so I should be good to go.  Until I took my transmission apart, I had no idea the bearings were in such poor shape.  All new bearings will provide little peace of mind down the road.

 

Edited September 13, 2015 by Taylormade (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

Well, as usual, one step forward, two steps back.  I finally got the transmission back together with new bearings and a replacement  pinion shaft and I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.  Then I go and try and put on the free wheeling unit.  Let me preface this by saying that what I know about free wheeling units would fit in a thimble - a very small thimble.  Inside the free wheeling case is a huge lump of metal with a shaft sticking out of the back end end and an opening in the front that takes the splined mainshaft of the transmission.

 

This is the lump after I partially disassembled it.

 

 

The snap ring and the gear have been removed to see what's inside.  That's also the bearing that the shaft rides on in the case.

 

Here is the inside of the lump.  That center section is supposed to (I think) rotate independently of the outer housing with the shaft.  Mine was jammed solid.

 

 

Everything is actually deeper in the lump so that the free wheeling clutch gear can be pushed into the lump and engage those gears inside the lump.  (See the picture below).

 

 

I was very lucky to have just gotten an extra DL transmission from fellow DB Club member Larry Yirga, so I took the free wheeling lump out of that transmission.  It's from a much later car - and, naturally, it's different!  But, and it's a big but, it still seems to fit on my transmission with no problem.  Of course, I have no way of telling if this lump is in good working condition.  The rest of the transmission looked to be in good shape, but the donor car had been sitting for years, so who knows?  So, at the moment, I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with my lump and if I can fix it and, if not, hoping against hope that once I get everything into the frame that all is well with the replacement lump.  The thought of taking everything out and taking the trans apart again is most disquieting.

 

Since suicide is not an option, I continue on...

 

By the way, if you can help Larry out, he is looking for a transmission for his 1932 Dodge DK - the eight cylinder model is different that the DL.

 

 

 

 

 

[frank29u]

Another dragon to slay does get old.  You will win!

[Spinneyhill]

The freewheel unit should lock in one direction and turn freely in the other. Work at it as if the drive goes in from the front - it locks. If the engine goes to idle, it is driven from the rear so will free wheel. Is it locked in both directions?

 

My Studebaker freewheel unit consisted of a bunch of rollers on ramps. In one direction they went up the ramps and locked on the outside; in the other they went down the ramps and it freewheels. I think you can see the ends of the rollers.

[Taylormade]

You're absolutely correct, Spinneyhill, the unit from the spare transmission turns freely in one direction and locks in the other. My unit would not turn in either direction and was totally locked up.  I took the "lump" in my unit apart.  It is similar to what you described.  There is a center piece with ramps.  At the start of each ramp is a solid piece that connects to a floating piece via a spring.  The floating piece cradles a large roller and a smaller roller sits next to that.

 

 

With everything removed you can see the bearing inside that allows the center piece to rotate.

 

 

The center piece was full of crud.

 

 

I cleaned it off and discovered that there was some galling on the surface of the ramp where the rollers had scored the ramp surface.

 

 

Here are the floating pieces and the springs.

 

 

I couldn't find anything else wrong so I lubed everything and put the unit back together.  Now it turned in one direction and locked in the other.  However, the replacement unit will turn by hand if I reach in, while my "rebuilt" unit would not.  If I put it on the mainshaft I had enough leverage to turn it, but but it was much more difficult than the other unit.  It also made some noise while it rotated and I believe it's being caused by the rough ramps inside.  The replacement unit spins smoothly and quietly, so I opted to go with it instead.  It's a bit different, as I said before, but still fits perfectly and operates correctly.

 

Here is my original unit.

 

 

And the replacement.

 

 

So, I finally have the transmission finished and painted.  now on to the next catastrophe!

 

 

 

 

 

[keiser31]

WOW! Nice job! I am on the edge of my seat watching you re-do everything....

[countrytravler]

You are a good teacher. When you're done, you should do a 34 and you probably have twice as much hits. Not knocking your 32. Your 32 is one fine specimen. Should be entered in the Chry Museum in MI if it were still open.

[Taylormade]

I don't know about being a teacher - most of the stuff I post is based on information I get from folks on this site. But thanks for the kind words.

[Taylormade]

Long, long day today.  My lovely wife Kathy joined in on the fun - I never would have gotten this done without her help.  We got the engine off the stand on onto the lift, padding everything to keep the new paint unharmed.

 

 

Installed the bell housing, flywheel, and clutch.  Had a moment since one side of the clutch disk sticks out more than the other, but saw that the longer side interfered with the flywheel bolts, so that went toward the rear.

 

 

Installed the front motor mount cradle with the newly vulcanized rubber Floating Power mount.

 

 

The motor dropped right in.  I'm using some wood braces to keep the weight of the motor off the rubber mount just behind the oil pan.  Still have the transmission to put in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[keiser31]

That is looking sooooo good!! Interesting to see the big engineering differences in the 1932 versus my 1931s.

[Spinneyhill]

Woops! you have the pedals on the wrong side! It looks funny to us down 'ere.

 

Did you strip and clean up the better freewheeling unit? Yours probably didn't get the oil changed very often.

 

The engine mount at the front is an interesting system, completely different to the DC. It looks kind of complicated to press all those heavy parts. I suppose they didn't want to add a front cross member and sit the engine on it.

[Taylormade]

Floating Power is an unusual system. If you notice, there are no conventional "ears" connecting the bell housing to the frame. There is a rubber bumper or pad on the cross frame right behind the oil pan, but the motor is not attached to the pad. The pad is just really a cushion for the motor. Then the transmission rests at the back on a rubber mount, so the engine and transmission float on two rubber mounts at the front of the motor and the rear of the transmission. They never touch the frame.