I'm going to try to not get angry but...

[Bleach]

I just got my thread removed about craftman tools with out any explanation and in what seems like record time.

What gives? There was nothing wrong with it IMO.

Someone's got some splaining to do.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Bleach (see edit history)

[CarFreak]

Twinkies thread - GOOD

Craftsman tools thread - BAD?

[1937hd45]

It's a lawyer thing.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

I just got my thread removed about craftman tools with out any explanation and in what seems like record time.

What gives? There was nothing wrong with it IMO.

Someone's got some splaining to do.

Bleach,

Bob is absolutely correct. This website is paid for by and OWNED by dues paying AACA members. It is provided "free" to anyone to participate within the spirit of the hobby. Not sure who moderates this site however I thank you for quickly taking it down so a huge "XYZ" company does not litigate our club for being the "vehicle / media" that allowed the negative comments against their products.

As for an "splaining (sp) due. Forget it. When signing on to this site it is well noted that the moderators will and can delete any detrimental thread.

For the record, I read the original thread and reported it. Why? Well I do not want my dues going up for legal fees. Can the club be sued for allowing disputes or negative PR about a company or vendor? You bet it can. The legal-beagle chains were rattled a few times over the years thus I thank the AACA moderators for being prompt.

(FYI...I reported it to protect our dues paying members not to mention the fudiciary responsiblities to our membership that the AACA officials are held accountable.)

Peter.

[CarFreak]

Makes sense to me now. I hadn't seen the original thread which was removed but now realize why.

Still question about the Twinkie thread. I was deleted about 18 months ago and was given the reason 'not auto related' when in fact it was.

[Bleach]

So just warning folks that another cherished tool company has gone to making their tools overseas is something that get a thread deleted?

[CarlLaFong]

The HAMB has a 3 page thread on the very same thing right now. Evidently they ain't skeered of lawyers

[stock_steve]

"No comment" from this end!

[auburnseeker]

I think you will see every manufacturing job in this country disappear eventually until someone figures out that trade terrifs placed back where they belong on imports are the only way to fix the problem. As a business man almost every company looks at the bottom line exclusively.

Whoever thought of free trade in that the US would sell lots of high end items to 3rd world countries where the average worker makes less in a year than a starting US manufacturing employee makes in a day or at most a week, really needs there thinking examined.

I ship alot to other countries and the import Duties are extremely hi. Where is that free or even fair trade? Yet I had some old NOS parts shipped in the country from Canada and there was no terrif???

It's never going to work if the scales are tipped the wrong way.

[Bhigdog]

ACHTUNG! Der Kraftsmenns tread hass been KAPUTEN. Der perzen dot posted it hass been reported und hass been delt vith. Ve are vatching effry zing you say und any further infractions vill be delt with. Now you vill all go back to being goot peeples und schtop making der vaves dat upset der self oppointed zite polize...............Bop

[Guest South_paw]

The HAMB has a 3 page thread on the very same thing right now. Evidently they ain't skeered of lawyers

IMO, it's a sad day for the AACA when their due paying members have no voice on their own site and have to go to a non-club site to discuss hobby issues.

[R W Burgess]

Gentlemen!

Every dues paying AACA member has a voice in the AACA. There are procedures to follow though, just as there are for any organization. Thoughts, ideas, or even grievances are easily voiced by sending a letter to the proper Board member that has responsibility for the area of interest.

Board member contacts are located here... Antique Automobile Club of America (AACA) - Officers & Directors Roster | About AACA

Concerning your concerns and questions about the AACA Web Site operations, all of those questions were answered below when you registered.......

Forum Rules

<O:p</O:pRegistration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Complete Registration' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.<O:p</O:pAntique Automobile Club of America (AACA) Discussion Forum is owned and operated by the Antique Automobile Club of America (AACA).

<O:p</O:pYou agree, through your use of this private forum, that you will not post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive or provoking tone, containing vulgar or profane language, threatening, harassing, hateful, sexually oriented, or containing personal attacks, or that are considered offensive of otherwise inappropriate by the moderators will be deleted. Certain conduct could result in revocation of AACA membership as outlined in the AACA By-Laws. Forum users unwilling to comply with the requests of the moderators or who ignore these guidelines will be banned. Moderators reserve the right to limit the time that a thread may be run. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this forum.

<O:p</O:pThe AACA provides space on the forum to other automotive related clubs, organizations, and web sites free of charge. They are provided "moderator" status to their forums and may, at their discretion, moderate their forums. Regardless, the AACA retains the right to add, move, remove, and moderate a forum and it's moderators at any time. <O:p</O:pConsidering the real-time nature of this forum, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we do not actively monitor the contents of posted messages and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of the AACA or any entity associated with this forum. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process, however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. If you have any other concerns about how the forum is managed or a forum is moderated please feel free to contact the AACA Webmaster.

<O:p</O:pAlthough the AACA does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless the AACA and all other clubs and organizations on this forum and their agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).<O:p</O:pYour email address and other registration information will never be sold or given away, however the AACA may from time-to-time contact you with AACA and forum related news. The AACA reserves the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.<O:p</O:pPlease note that blatant commercial advertisements, forum "spam", chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate on this forum. However, the AACA reserve the right to display banner advertising.

<O:p</O:pEnjoy the AACA Forums!

AACA WebMaster

Wayne<O:p</O:p

Edited December 16, 2012 by R W Burgess (see edit history)

[pkr]

WOW, China is going to litigate this site........

[Guest South_paw]

Gentlemen!

Every dues paying AACA member has a voice in the AACA. There are procedures to follow though, just as there are for any organization. Thoughts, ideas, or even grievances are easily voiced by sending a letter to the proper Board member that has responsibility for the area of interest.

<o:p</oEnjoy the AACA Forums!

AACA WebMaster

Wayne<o:p</o

Wayne,

Thanks for taking the time to write. True, I do have a voice in the AACA as a dues paying member. I do not have a voice here however. Sure I can make a call or email a board member but I don't have to because I do have a voice elsewhere on a forum for free. Obviously here on the AACA forum, the fear of lawyers is stronger than the fear of competition. I say this because I do worry about the longevity of our club. In the future when the paper generation is gone and the computer generation is the majority of the membership, will they tolerate rules like this? I don't believe they will. Advocation ONLINE for members will have to be part of the future of this club otherwise folks will just go elsewhere and remember the AACA forum as the place that offered no help.

[R W Burgess]

....... In the future when the paper generation is gone and the computer generation is the majority of the membership, will they tolerate rules like this? I don't believe they will...............

Rules and regulations are what we all have to abide by. The AACA can share our member's dues by providing a wonderful web site like this one, for everyone to use freely, or we can go without rules and use our member's dues to pay lawyers to protect us in courts when we defame legitimate companies world wide.

[MarrsCars]

Bob is absolutely correct. This website is paid for by and OWNED by dues paying AACA members. It is provided "free" to anyone to participate within the spirit of the hobby. Not sure who moderates this site however I thank you for quickly taking it down so a huge "XYZ" company does not litigate our club for being the "vehicle / media" that allowed the negative comments against their products.

The opposite is actually true in the eyes of the law, websites that allow open posting are not responsible for what their members post, BUT, the individual who posted is certainly responsible for their words and can be sued for libel or defamation. That is actually confirmed by what RW Burgess quoted here:

"Although the AACA does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever." But that is the forum policy, not based in any law. They also have a section stating that posts can be removed for "defamation" among other things but defamation generally requires that the statement in question be false and/or potentially embarrassing or injurious and not known publicly prior to the disclosure. A statement of publicly available and known facts, in this case the place of manufacture of a product, would not seem to constitute defamation since I assume this information is stamped on the side of the tools.

Personally, I'm fine reading about problems, quality issues, etc., that relate to the hobby (tools are related) and don't want to feel like our club is bowing to a presumption of liability for someone stating not just an opinion, which is absolutely protected by law, but stating facts if they are legitimate and verifiable, also within his legal rights. Sorry guys, not intending to stir the pot here, but being a blog owner who cherishes the ability to speak freely and state my sometimes controversial opinions about a car, it's maker or dealers is an important right to me. Again, the forum policy allows deleting posts about anything, heck they could delete all the posts if they chose, but the conversation seems to be why? What harm was done if this was a post intending to give us useful information about a product that arguably we all probably use? Maybe the OP went off on a tirade making all kinds of made-up accusations, I didn't see the post before it was taken down, but even then the forum is protected legally and at worse would only have to turn over his member info if law enforcement requested such, and that would only be for a criminal action, not likely for a civil action. All other forums I participate in known this stuff well and allow spirited conversations such as what was seemingly deleted here, and we will definitely scare off the younger crowd who consider their online experience hands-off to ANY perception of censorship.

[dep5]

Excerpt... All other forums I participate in known this stuff well and allow spirited conversations such as what was seemingly deleted here, and we will definitely scare off the younger crowd who consider their online experience hands-off to ANY perception of censorship.

I notice that overall forum participation is way down already ....

[1937hd45]

The Topic that was removed here is on the HAMB, with 200,000 members at least the word is getting out to those hobbiests that wish to buy tools MADE IN USA. Bob

I notice that overall forum participation is way down already ....

[West Peterson]

The opposite is actually true in the eyes of the law, websites that allow open posting are not responsible for what their members post...

Anyone can be sued at any time for any reason. I can be sued for being kind to my neighbor. Nothing protects us from being sued. Just because others are playing Russian Roulette, doesn't mean we should.

[Guest cben09]

Some of us even recall that 1 Million dollar cup of HOTT coffee,,a few years back,,,,

Gave chills to all of in retailing,,really it did,,Cheer s,,,Ben

[Steve Moskowitz]

I will not answer this point by point but at this very moment I am in the office filling out 19 pages of our Media Professional Liability Policy renewal. Many of you seem to think this is something simple. It may be to you but not to our legal entity. The questions asked include many on how we avoid potential liability issues. This is a VERY expensive policy.

The fact that other sites have few rules normally means they have little to lose. AACA has a lot to lose.

If you have another forum to express your candid opinions irregardless of content then use that forum. It is that simple. We have stated many times that the purpose of this forum has been to educate and entertain but at the same time we are up front about the rules. None of you have had to deal with a supporter or advertiser with AACA who was upset by comments made on this forum. We have.

This subject comes up numerous times over the years and we will not change many opinions and you will not change ours. It is what it is..we respect your thoughts and appreciate your passion but the club needs to be protected. We will not turn our back on the advice we get from our insurance company or legal firm. We pay them to much money not to heed their counsel! I know some of you stay at Holiday Inn Express but....

[MarrsCars]

Anyone can be sued at any time for any reason. I can be sued for being kind to my neighbor. Nothing protects us from being sued. Just because others are playing Russian Roulette, doesn't mean we should.

True, but that is not a reason to be contrary to what is commonly accepted, typical, expected and fair. I could be accused of being a bank robber too by someone who thought I looked like the guy that just emptied their vaults, but that is an unreasonable fear and doesn't keep me from going to the bank to cash my check. Russian Roulette is by definition a risky venture undertaken by fools, that's just not the case with allowing members to post their opinions or facts. This is a long established tenant of internet law, common law and actual practice. I guess I have an issue with the "fear factor" here, and I will admit to being soured on the forum experience a bit, and I hope the AACA will consider speaking this over with their lawyers, assuming they are versed in internet law, so that this becomes a place of open conversation, I know that debate is necessary for truth and I will surely participate less if it's a one-sided show. What's the point of a "conversation" if only one side is speaking? I can get that from commercials the companies put out. Most other large car clubs would understand and appreciate the power they wield, even use it to lobby for positive change for our hobby, we should be standing on the strength of our membership to further our (already well established) freedoms not stifle them.

Consider all those complaint sites, where people post their opinions and experiences with products, do they get sued or shut down? No, and they may post thousands of comments every day from people talking serious trash about a product. Again, I fully understand that AACA has the right to delete posts, and should in the case of personal attacks, hate speech, criminal activity, etc., but for a member speaking his mind or advising us of a crappy product, I'd say "this does not represent my values."

[West Peterson]

... as for as the Twinkie thread, that was kept in check from the beginning, and nothing but great photos supplied by XP300 and proper comments since.

... as for the implication that there is less overall participation due to sensoring, it goes both ways. I've talked to many, many people who will not participate on a forum that doesn't control keyboard diarrhea.

[Bleach]

The Topic that was removed here is on the HAMB, with 200,000 members at least the word is getting out to those hobbiests that wish to buy tools MADE IN USA. Bob

That was the point I was trying to make here. I was simply making a point that the maker of said tools is now making them in china. What could be so litigation risky about saying that?

[1937hd45]

I try to be as vague as possible in my AACA posts, and others should be as well. I like or don't think the color looks nice, that polish may work well, that restaurant service was acceptable. Keep things vanilla. Bob

[Guest South_paw]

I now understand that I have a lot to lose as well. Any recommendation or suggestion I make on this forum could be a huge liability for me personally. I will act accordingly going forward.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

What could be so litigation risky about saying that?

In your original post you had mentioned the "name" of the company.

[Bleach]

And that's cause for a law suit? All you have to do is look at the tool and you will see the obvious fact. I wanted to share a new obvious fact that is plain as a nose on someone's face that would easily overlooked. Would you like ending up with something that you didn't want because you were used to getting it a certain way?

Anyway I mentioned brand and not the manufacturer.

[Bhigdog]

Gee, I bought some parts for my FORD and they were Made in MEXICO. I bought rotors from NAPA for my DODGE and they were made in CHINA. I bought A NEW HOLLAND tractor and damn if it wasn't made in ITALY. But that's OK because my TOYOTA was assembled in the USA from parts made in JAPAN......... How does the above make any one liable for anything?

Once again way over zealous moderators (or snitches) who see something illegal, immodest, distastefull, off topic, off color, or just want to show off, see a snake in the wood pile and delete a thread that would have died a natural death in 4 posts and turn it in an acrimonius P**sing contest by needlessly deleting it.

On the other hand it does make the forum a bit less of a snooze fest. Keep up the average work guys..................Bob

Edited December 16, 2012 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Can we send PM's (Private Messages) to fellow members without the powers that be screening them? If so I think that would best, and less offensive. Bob

[MarrsCars]

Some informed reading on the topic, courtesy of complaints.com a site which explicitly deals with posts from members about companies and products but it directs to articles explaining why the supreme court has protected forums like this from frivolous lawsuits: Complaints.com - Terms/Privacy

In short:

"Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act of 1996 (a common name for Title V of the Telecommunications Act of 1996) is a landmark piece of Internet legislation in the United States, codified at 47 U.S.C. § 230. Section 230©(1) provides immunity from liability for providers and users of an "interactive computer service" who publish information provided by others:

No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.

In analyzing the availability of the immunity offered by this provision, courts generally apply a three-prong test. A defendant must satisfy each of the three prongs to gain the benefit of the immunity:

1. The defendant must be a "provider or user" of an "interactive computer service."
   
2. The cause of action asserted by the plaintiff must "treat" the defendant "as the publisher or speaker" of the harmful information at issue.
   
3. The information must be "provided by another information content provider," i.e., the defendant must not be the "information content provider" of the harmful information at issue"
   

Ironically, simply by deleting the post the AACA has opened themselves up to liability that did not exist prior when the post existed. The terms suggest they do not read posts, "Although the AACA does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages,..."

which would alleviate them from liability as there is no practical way they can police the forums. By deleting a post because of it's content they have declared by action that they do, in fact, read and hold control over posts made here. Should BP, Shell and the whole lot sue because people here have disparaged ethanol gasoline?

Edited December 16, 2012 by MarrsCars (see edit history)

[Bleach]

As far as I know the two if the three moderators (the only ones with open PM channels) who were on the forum at the time had nothing to do with deleting it. It remains the deed of an unknown individual who appears to be cowering behind the cloak of anonymity.

[West Peterson]

Notice how all that legalese mentions "plaintiffs" and "defendants." That is exactly what we're trying to avoid. We do not wish to be a defendant. We may be relieved from liability, but we are not relieved from being sued.

[Bleach]

I thought a forum is about educating and informing each other and that was what I was trying to do. How the heck can you get sued for stating a true and obvious fact? Someone really has their panties in a bunch.

[West Peterson]

As I mentioned before, anyone can sue anyone else for any reason at any time. At that time, you have plaintiffs and defendants.

[1937hd45]

IF you bought a tool, and it failed and you or someone nearby was injured, DO NOT mention it here, let the problem go on. May sound cruel, but no lawyers will be needed. Bob

[R W Burgess]

This subject comes up numerous times over the years and we will not change many opinions and you will not change ours. It is what it is..we respect your thoughts and appreciate your passion but the club needs to be protected. We will not turn our back on the advice we get from our insurance company or legal firm...

Here is the final word above guys, as posted by our Executive Director. These decisions were made by our 21 member Board of Directors. May I also add that as the Assistant VP of the AACA Web, I will gladly communicate with anyone by e-mail or private message concerning this web site. In the meantime, this thread is closed.

Wayne Burgess

VP-Publications

Asst VP-Web

e-mail: waynesway29@yahoo.com

Edited December 17, 2012 by R W Burgess
left out my e-mail address (see edit history)