Pre-War & Post-War Collections

[jeff_a]

Hi,

I was editorializing on a post I wrote recently on the Peerless Forum {68 floors down on the list of AACA Forums} about car collections. What Cars do you fellow AACA Forum Members think No Complete Collection of American Antique Cars Should Be Without?

I. Pre-War

II. Post-War

Please, no pie-in-the-sky: "If I could have 2,000 cars in the collection I'd like 200 models of this in 10 different colors." Keep it down to a collection that would at least fit on the deck of a small aircraft carrier, and not necessarily the whole collection ------ just the models or makes that you feel a museum called Postwar Auto Museum or Prewar Auto Museum should have. Seriously, I was curious what different people thought of the really significant cars of both eras, such as: a 1909 Model T Ford and a 1964 1/2 Mustang.

Thanks for your opinions....I was mostly wondering if people would agree on the same 4 or 5 cars, or be all over the place.

----Jeff

Edited November 10, 2011 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Guest ChrisSummers]

I think that the Ford and Mustang which you mention are excellent. I would add a Corvette of any vintage, a 1955-57 Thunderbird, and - for the prewar - a Cord. "Cars that changed everything."

[Guest Michael Whitehead]

By "Pre-War" do you mean pre 1914?

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I'll go with what I expected Chris Summers to say for the pre-war, a Model J Duesenberg. For the postwar, I don't think any self-respecting collection would be complete and worthwhile without a Tucker. That being said I'd love to see a collection with a restored version of that Model A bus from the Lee Hartung collection

[Landman]

Maybe the unibody pioneers - Airflows & Stepdown Hudsons

[trimacar]

You better throw 810 and 812 Cords in the unibody mix.....body was one unit with no frame, then there was a stub frame in front to carry engine and transmission.....

[alsancle]

Prewar: J12 Hisso, S/SS/500K/540k Mercedes, Model J, Bugatti, 851/852 Speedster, 810/812 Cord, Dietrich bodied Packard. President, Reo Royale, 32-34 Hupp, Graham Hollywood, DV32 Stutz, V16 Marmon, K Lincoln, V16 Caddy.

Postwar: bleh, I like a lot of them but not for the same reason I like the above.

I did the usual laundry list of desirable cars, but really for me I would concentrate on unique one-off whenever possible. Probably coachbuilt but rare and attractive in any case. As my dad taught me many years ago, with the biggest engines possible.

Edited November 10, 2011 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I like A.J.'s list a lot but would add an early Stutz Bearcat (Iconic, and along with the Mercer, I think one could argue one of the first true "musclecars - I just prefer the Bearcat) and drop the Bugatti. Also, a Packard Darrin would be nice (nearing the end of the true custom body era, like late 30s cars, also iconic). Model A, still the quintessential antique car to me, what small town parade is complete without one?

In terms of postwar cars a '55 - '57 T-bird would cover a lot of ground for me, but I also like a lot of European sports models.

Always interesting to see what kind of mix people have. I was lucky enough to see a fantastic collection last winter - he had one postwar car out of 25 - 30, an MB gullwing, tough to argue with that choice...

Jeff - my choices are really heavy on Full Classics largely because of personal preference but also considering this - I once heard it said that the Classics were nothing more than "A cul-de-sac in automotive history" - I could not disagree more.

During the beginning of the Classic Era the wealth available created a strong market for fine cars, bringing us the start of some of the best designs the automotive world will ever see

As the depression set in, the ante was upped in terms of both design and technical advances

These cars stand the test of time and are what many immediately think of when thinking pre-war.

Of course a museum setting covering an entire span of time would need to include popular, lower priced models, but the bulk if I was setting it up, would be icon cars..

Edited November 10, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT
added thought (see edit history)

[trimacar]

If the full Classics were a cul-de-sac, as mentioned, then it was a heck of a big neighborhood.

There were over a million vehicles produced that meet the CCCA definition of a full Classic.

Maybe small number in comparison to multi-million Model T's, but not insignificant in number nor in influence on styling and performance.

[1937hd45]

My main interest is in Pre WWII vehicles, so I could pick 12-24 cars really quick that should be in any major collection. 1900 Locomobile, 1904 Curved Dash Oldsmobile, 1903 Ford, 1903 Cadillac, Pre 1910 Winton, Pope, Peerless. Packard, Pierce Arrow, White Steamer, any INDY race car from every dacade, Thomas Flyer,Pope, Pope Toledo, MERCER T Head, Stutz, Marmon, Rickenbacker, Springfield built Rolls-Royce..........you get the picture. Just remembered to add ALCO and Simplex to the collection along with a MILLER and Duesenberg INDY car.

Edited November 11, 2011 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

Good point Michael,

By "Pre-War" I meant pre-WWII.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Jeff's Direction - "Keep it down to a collection that would at least fit on the deck of a small aircraft carrier, and not necessarily the whole collection "

Jeff, I think you are going to need a bigger boat...

[jeff_a]

Thank you for writing all the suggestions.

My thinking on this goes back to a visit to what is really one of the major auto museums in the country, the Harold Warp Pioneer Museum in Minden, NE. I had been there in 1984 and seen their hundreds of cars(mostly of 1903-1960 vintage) and returned in 2006. I noticed that the cars in the collection were the same, except for the addition of just 4 or 5: I think they were a Gremlin, a Pinto, a Vega and a 1964 Pontiac GTO. I'm just going on memory, so I could be mistaken on which were new additions and what they were, but it seemed to me that someone at the Pioneer Museum thought that these were omissions that needed to be corrected for the collection.

Not knowing what car makes and models people would send in, I wrote down the following last night:

A. Pre-War

1. any Model T Ford (1909-1927).....changed the world
   
2. any Model A Ford (1928-1931)......no one ever got more car for the money
   
3. 1904 Curved Dash Oldsmobile.....one of the first reliable and mass-produced US cars
   
4. 1915 Chevrolet 490.....matched the T on value
   
5. 1929 Chevrolet International.....a six for the price of a four
   
6. any Franklin (1902-1934).....quality, and air-cooled
   

The 3 Ps of Prestige:.....I like to call these the Triple Crown of Luxury Cars

7. any Packard (1899-1942).....best sales of The 3 Ps

8. any Peerless (1900-1932).....rarest today of The 3 Ps, many technical innovations in 1st eighteen years

9. any Pierce-Arrow (1901-1938).....considered by many the American equivalent of the Rolls-Royce

The A-C-D Triumvirate of Style, Speed & Technology.....our automotive heritage would be a lot poorer without these three

10. any Auburn(1900-1936).....they say you could buy a new Auburn V-12 for $1,000, yikes!

11. any Cord (1929-1937.....it seems that all US cars were trying to look like a Cord by 1939

12. any Duesenberg (1912-1938).....outrageously good car if money's not a problem, winner of the 1921 French Grand Prix and three Indy 500 races

B. Post-War

1. 1946 Jeep CJ-2.....every SUV goes back to this
   
2. 1947 Studebaker.....one of the 1st new post-war cars
   
3. 1948 Cadillac.....one of the style leaders
   
4. 1949 Oldsmobile.....advanced V-8
   
5. 1953 or 54 Chevrolet Corvette.....GM went out on a big limb with this one
   
6. 1955 Chevrolet.....pleasing styling + a 265 V-8
   
7. 1956 Packard.....last of the line
   
8. 1960 Corvair.....radical technically
   
9. 1964 Pontiac GTO.....a guy who had a ranch in my neighborhood (John DeLorean) came up with this idea and spawned a whole new genre of performance cars
   
10. 1964 1/2 Ford Mustang.....did wonders for the company
    
11. 1969 Dodge Charger Daytona.....unbeatable
    
12. 1984 Plymouth Voyager minivan....this and the redesigned '84 Jeep Cherokee saved a whole corporation
    

Edited November 16, 2011 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[alsancle]

If the full Classics were a cul-de-sac, as mentioned, then it was a heck of a big neighborhood.

There were over a million vehicles produced that meet the CCCA definition of a full Classic.

Maybe small number in comparison to multi-million Model T's, but not insignificant in number nor in influence on styling and performance.

That is true, but if you eliminate the production Caddy, Packard's and Lincoln's you go from like 1% of total car production down to .0001% of total production.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So Jeff, are these choices based on impact/historical importance or personal preference? Or a combination? These types of lists are really tough - and limiting to American makes a big difference. For example, pre-war that discounts the advances from europe, arguably ahead of the US in the earliest days and the great cars of the Classic era, and then, post-war, what about the VW bug and...as influential as the Voyager in the 80s I would say what about a Honda Accord? Just complicating things on you!

[TexRiv_63]

Jeff,

Some postwar milestone cars:

1963 to 65 Buick Riviera - last GM model to never share a platform with any other car.

1966 Olds Toronado - first US postwar FWD car.

1955 to 57 Thunderbird 2-seater.

[DAVE A]

Jeff;

I like your choices, but I would humbly ask you to consider adding a 1949 Crosley Hotshot to your collection. Representative of the first American small car, first American sports car, first American car with 4 wheel disc brakes, early use of overhead cam engine, first all steel "car designed" station wagon and many others.

[jeff_a]

Steve Mack,

Impact/Historical Significance. Something Spock would come up with, rather than cars you fell in love with or couldn't afford in high school (that would be all of them, in my case). On the list I wrote, I tried not to get too emotional about it and include the '62 AMC Metropolitan just because I had one, or the '69 Pontiac GTO Judge just because I saw one at the Cherry Hill Mall and wanted one when I was a h.s. kid in Jersey. They say that Marilyn Monroe rode in a NYC parade in a pink Metro convertible with pink mink upholstery. If that were still around I bet a lot of museums would want to have it (even so, it wouldn't make my own list because it's technically a British car)!

Maybe the "fastest car of the decade", "first company to put a rear view mirror on their car", "first people to sell a car with an all-metal roof", "best-selling pre-1900 American car", etc. would be more legitimate than personal taste, although I have to admit that both of my old cars would make it on my list (just a coincidence). What I put on my list isn't all that important....I was really hoping to hear other peoples opinions.

In a way, foreign cars should be in the discussion, too, but I was trying to simplify a bit...which is also why I left off trucks. A '49 Crosley and a '34 Airflow are more interesting from a technology standpoint than the best-selling cars of their times, but a complete collection of American cars would need to have a few of the more bland but best-selling models, too, don't you think?

Edited November 12, 2011 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Ahh, that's different, I think. I would think you have the historically significant prewar list pretty well covered - but I might suggest a flathead Ford V-8 as a must, probably the landmark (style and engine) '32 and would suggest you need two Packards, a Dietrich design representing the best of America's then leading luxury make, and a Jr. Packard - the car that actually saved Packard at least for a while, anyway, and the business model that lead to (probably - I cannot think of another example) the best sales figures for any independent in the 30s.

And you really need a Stutz Bearcat in there...

Edited November 10, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

I was going to put a 1932 Ford V-8 on my list, but I didn't think there were any left. A lot of them seem to have been given makeovers of some kind and have incorrect engines. I was also tempted to add 1950s Thunderbirds and Chryslers, 1903 Model A Ford, 1898 Winton, 1895 Duryea, the earliest Haynes of 1893*, Stutz, Marmon, Mercer, Stanley, and even Apperson.

I also thought of adding a 1935 Packard 120, but I hated to give Packard 2 spots in a collection when Buick and Cadillac had none. That's kind of made up for by all the GM models on the Post-War list. I'd love to have a Packard 120 someday, and totally agree with you that the model kept Packard from doing the kind of things Peerless did to make it through the Depression. I did find a '38 or '39 120 Coupe parked in an industrial park sitting outside, but it wasn't for sale. Only 37 bullet holes in it, though.

----Jeff

* I came across a neat bit of trivia: for a 1000-car parade in 1908 NYC, Elwood Haynes got permission to borrow his 1893 Haynes back from the Smithsonian, where it was already an exhibit. Harlan Whipple and Barney Oldfield were in the parade in a Stearns racing car Barney was scheduled to race at some nearby track that April.

Edited November 12, 2011 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Guest bkazmer]

wouldn't the unit body production pioneer be the Traction Avant?

[Guest angel_phil]

i like the vintage cars still..

[Richard Lichtfel]

There are several things to consider here. Is this for a personal collection Or a museum that is trying to attract customers. You can have a collection that is of historical importance but is not too interesting for the average museum customer, they would rather see the Duke of Hazards replicas or Batmans cars.

The Crawford museum is a good example. They have some extremely rare cars and unless you know the history you would walk right on by. The all aluminum V-16 1932 Peerless and the 1914 6-60 only one known to exist, but there is another that the museum doesn't even know they have. It's a 1905 Peerless, if you walk by and look at it no big deal but I looked at the engine, the overhead valve Green Dragon engine, available in very limited numbers in 1905 and sold for $11,000, Americas most expensive automobile for many years, and they don't know they have it. The general public would rather see the TV cars.

[1937hd45]

Didn't the Crawford have the HISSO V8 powered 1908 GP Mercedes up untill a few years ago? That was crime to see go back across the pond. It finished in 4th place in the 1911 INDY 500 and 15th in 1912. With the addition of the HISSO it was one of the earliest American Hot Rods, raced by Larry Beals.

[poci1957]

This is of course impossible but I will give it a go, 1 or 2 cars per decade of historic and/or cultural significance:

1904 Curved Dash Olds--the first popular American car and pioneer of mass production

1914 Ford Model T-representing the most significant of all cars, the moving assembly line, the later discredited Ford idea of utilitarian automobiles and the early growth of the auto industry to a giant force in America.

1922 Essex Coach-the early popularization of the closed car

1929-30 Duesenburg Model J-the finest expression of the prewar Classics

1928-31 Model A-a modern interpretation of the Ford idea of mass motoring, but in the attractive value package that would carry many American families through the Depression and WWII

1936-37 Cord 810-812-front wheel drive, unit body and landmark styling, plus a top independent automaker killed by the Depression.

1944 Willys Jeep-the car that won the war and the first 4x4 seen by most Americans

1949 Cadillac Coupe DeVille-postwar styling, the hardtop, the OHV V8, Hydramatic and the postwar idea of mass produced luxury motoring rather than coachbuilt and limited production.

1955 Chevy Bel Air 2dr HT-a low priced car with hardtop, landmark OHV V8, automatic, ball joint suspension and the styling of a baby Cadillac in the low priced field.

1964 1/2 Mustang-the popularization of the compact "personal" car in the low priced field.

1973 Olds Cutlass-the mid size version of the personal car, a coupe that would dominate the 1970s. Take a mid size two door, add styled long hood/short deck exterior and interior with velour and fake wood and you have the success story of the decade.

1974 Ford F100 SuperCab-representing the American full size pickup in a modern package that would soon become a runaway best seller for decades

1986 Ford Taurus-the mid size four door that killed the Cutlass and other coupes and made four doors the rule of the day.

1991 Ford Explorer-the popularization of the 4dr 4x4 mid size SUV.

1992 Toyota Camry-the car that popularized the US made Japanese mid size with styling and packaging in a manner that really appealed to Americans.

These 15 represent the most significant historical milestones and/or major market impact of the American automobile in the 20th century. They may not be the best or my favorites (except the Cord and Duesenburg that I could not bring myself to omit), but they are the touchstone cars IMO. Many more would be included if I were allowed, but these would be the core. Todd C

Edited November 11, 2011 by poci1957 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Easy:

Prewar- one Buick each year from 1903 to 1942. Large series.

Postwar- one Buick each year from 1946 to 1976 Roadmasters & Electras.

What more could you ask for? They would all run, you know. No fidgety little quirks in the bunch.

Bernie

[bhclark]

Any and all of the GM dream cars. My favorite is the Wildcat II.

[oldcarfudd]

60FlatTop - You could leave off the '03 Buick, but you wouldn't save any money or space. First Buicks were '04s. There were only 37 built that year. I don't believe any original '04s have survived, although I understand someone found an engine and built a very authentic '04 replica around it.

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ

[Guest Michael Whitehead]

Just kidding about pre WW1.

Anyway how about significant (and different) engineering contributions such as: Volkswagen, Metz, Baker(?) Electric, DAF, Morgan 3-wheeler, sleeve valve engine, amphibious, "aerodynamic". Not all of these were mechanically or financially successful but are certainly of some interest.

Mike Whitehead.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

You forgot Wankel

[jeff_a]

Green Dragon,

I liked all your comments regarding autos in museum collections. I always wondered about that 1905 Peerless in the Crawford Museum. I've never seen it and didn't know that it was the $11,000 overhead-valve Green Dragon model. Wouldn't that make it a 60 h.p. Model 12?

You're right, there's a difference between what Joe Q. Public might want to see and what you and I might want to see at a museum. I was just trying to come up with a theoretical list of what maybe are "must-haves" if someone were to start up a museum from scratch. Personally, I would rather see a collection populated with cars of the ilk of 1937HD45's or alsancles's list than, say, one with just low-cost, high-production models, but the latter are important vehicles, too from a historian's perspective.

----Jeff

Edited November 12, 2011 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

I think the 15 vehicles poci1957 put down would make for a really pleasing, small automobile history museum. The Barney Pollard, Bill Harrah, Harold LeMay, Harold Warp, and Stan Reynolds Collections at their largest would NOT fit on small aircraft carriers...as my original post directed...but they at least gave one a sense of automotive history through sheer numbers.

Edited November 19, 2011 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[poci1957]

Thanks Jeff, like those guys I could put on a much bigger show if I did not restrain myself to American cars and only one per decade. Todd

[Larry Schramm]

May cause some indigestion, but from a stab of technically different, the Vega might be on the list.

Maybe the GM EV1 electric vehicle with the high tech body composites and electronics for the time.

It will be interesting to see how history will treat the Chevy Volt.

[skyler]

post war, 1957 and 1955 chevy. 1959 cadillac.almost any chrysler 300 convertible. 1950 merc. 1957 or 1958 mopar with the 392 hemi. any rambler with the fold down front seat. skyler

[juddman]

From a Eurotrash perspective...Prewar Tatras are always interesting. The BMW 328 had a significant impact in the development of sports cars in Europe, too. Postwar, perhaps a Jaguar XK120, Lancia Fulvia, a Fiat Multipla, or a 3-series BMW (E30).

[Guest prs519]

Jeff, I think I would go with the same you choose for #1 and #2. Then, I would go with a light T truck, as the significance of getting the work done on highways and roads cannot be overstated in Transportation history. Betweeen the T and a heavier truck,say a Mack or Republic, or White, would be a crqwler tractor from the twenties or thirties. Both Cadillac and Lincoln would be given space along with the Packard. The other three fabulous luxury cars did not last, and had such low production numbers that I would choose instead 1912 Cadillac with self starter. Pierce Arrow Silver Arrow for streamlining. A Stanley steamer and one of

the handsome cab electrics to illustrate other attempts at self propulsion. For power and performance, we would have to have a Duesy supercharged. There, in the background, would be the silhouette of a first year LaSalle coupe and maybe that Hupmobile silver anniversary car coupe that resides in the Fairbanks collection in Alaska. A Willys jeep and a Dodge Power Wagon would double as evidence of useful, yet sporting vehicles. I would also have a sprinkling of 1st occurences...front wheel drive (Cord, probably first practical)?, automatic tranny 38 Olds. For significance, one should have a large Studebaker, a Nash, and a Chrysler Airflow for the evidence that one can build a good car for a good price, and still fail in marketability. Curved Dash assembly line, and 03 Cadillac for interchangeability of parts. I am all over the map, but disk brakes and fuel injection examples, as well as a diesel powered truck, would be in this museum. I better get my powerball tickets.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Jeff started an interesting post which we have seen simillar versions of over time. But the clarification that this is a collection Spock would put together makes me think - what drives collectors? Most do not collect this way. Obviously some of us are marque oriented, A.J. has a passion for "one of a kind" cars, some like certain eras, performance cars, etc. Earlier in this thread I referenced a collection not too far from me which has only one postwar - well this guy's interests are primarilly Brass to early Classic era that represent unusual or progressive technology. Makes for an interesting collection.

I would focus largely Classics throughout the 30s, but would mix in a couple less pricey vehicles - a Model A (it has been said you can have as much fun with a Model A as a Duesenberg, well, I figure ALMOST as much fun anyway. ) and a postwar European sportscar or two - I guess I am interested in two eras & genres for the most part. That would drive my collecting interest.

I think Barry's interesting collection is based on "Continentals" (not sure how the Ford pick up fits in there... ) Any other interesting drivers of collections out there? (Jeff, I thought this was ok without taking the thread too far afield, please stop if that is not the case..)

[1937hd45]

Who is this Spock fellow that two people have mentioned?

[jeff_a]

A fictional character driven more by logic than emotion. A character not likely to make irrational choices regarding selection of "ground transportation devices, automobiles"* if allowed to select them for inclusion in a museum. In other words, no one using these forums.

Though it is almost impossible imagining him selecting cars for an antique car museum, I had in mind Spock from Star Trek.

*apologies to Mr. Chenhall

Edited November 21, 2011 by jeff_a (see edit history)