v16 cadillacs

[JustDave]

hello everyone

today i looked at 2 1938 cadillac v 16s, both sedans with dual sidemounts,1 is a very resorable car the other is a parts car with no engine,both look like calif cars

only rust i saw was surface rust,glass was all intact an windows where up,didnt look at the interior but would think the floors are in fairly good shape,my question

is is this vehicle worth getting involved in or should i let them go,price is fair an negotiable,what do you think

dave

[Guest Bob Call]

Dave

My opinion, if the one car has a complete drivetrain and the other is good for parts and you feel the price is reasonable, and you have space for them, go for it! Any old car saved is great for the hobby.

[Dynaflash8]

I would say yes, they're worth it, if you have a couple hundred thousand to put into a restoration or 8-10 years to get a restoration done by various artisans who will work on the side. Even then, you're looking at 35-40,000 I would think. The man who wrote above also has a good point. If you can afford to take the cars and store them, if only to save them for someone who can restore them and keep them from being chopped up, then you've done someting for society.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[hddennis]

I saved a 1940 V-16 coupe back in about 1980. Beautiful car very fun to drive. After I cured all the mechanical ills from long term lack of use I figued out the chrome bill would run in excess of $6000.00 which I just didn't have. Today I'd expect that bill to be 4 or 5 times that much as these cars have a ton of chrome even on the engine. Sadly I sold it for a nice profit and moved on. one thing I would do is check production figures, you'll be amazed at how few were made. My car was body #1 of 2 produced out of a total production in 1940 of 51 cars. Total production for the last series V-16 1938-1940 was only 498 cars.

Howard Dennis

Edited November 11, 2009 by hddennis (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Dave,

ANY complete V-16 car is worth saving due to its rarity. They are all CCCA Full Classics and were the top of the heap in the multicylinder wars of the 30s. The harsh realities of cost mentioned above are very true but if you have the ability to buy and store them even as a caretaker you can at least keep them from the rodder or scrapper. Good luck!

[alsancle]

At the risk of sounding gruff, if you have to ask then you shouldn't be doing it.

[JustDave]

alsancle

i asked for opinions,im sorry if that offended you in some way,ive found alot of knowledge over the years from people with more experience than myself, an have made alot of friends,im not familiar with cadillacs,but since you half to start somewhere i figured id get some good feedback, some was good,

[alsancle]

alsancle

i asked for opinions,im sorry if that offended you in some way,ive found alot of knowledge over the years from people with more experience than myself, an have made alot of friends,im not familiar with cadillacs,but since you half to start somewhere i figured id get some good feedback, some was good,

I guess I did sound gruff. Your post felt a bit like a "what's it worth" post which I do find really annoying. If it wasn't that, then I apologize. Here's a better response. The later v16 Caddilac, although no where near as complex as the earlier v16 is not the kind of car you want to jump into trivially. It's one of those cars that is best bought by someone familiar with similar era Cadillacs but has never had a V16. The chrome and interior costs of the restoration alone are astronomical. The V16 it's self is an easier rebuild then the earlier overhead valve engine but not something that should be done in the backyard. Basically, if you don't already have a good handle on those cars in general, and the V16 specifically, you will be getting in over your head and I would recommend something else.

[Rusty_OToole]

They are a full classic, very valuable in restored or good original condition. Definitely worth preserving.

If you plan on restoring one it is going to cost plenty to do it right. If you can't afford to hire the best experts and pay through the nose STOP right now. Any amateur work will REDUCE the value of the car not increase it. In other words, any money you spend will be wasted and the car will be worth less money than it is right now.

This is really the top of the heap of classic cars, up there with the Duesenbergs and Packard 12s. Unless you are a very rich, and very experienced collector you will be better off starting with something else.

[CarlLaFong]

Are these cars in SoCal? I saw a ca. 38 Cad v-16 sedan parked at the curb in the San Fernando Valley earlier this year. It was semi shabby, but very complete and appeared to be a driver. I wish I had been able to turn around and take a few pix, but I was running way late that day

[poci1957]

Hello Dave, great find, good for you. Just to echo a few points:

1. These are beautiful cars, rare and Full Classics

2. Despite that they cannot be economically restored by an amateur. A quick, inauthentic job is a waste of money on a car like this, but likewise you cannot pay for full restoration by a professional and recoup your money. A bit of a catch 22, BUT:

3. As Bob said at the top of the post, if the price is right and you have storage space, DO IT! Even if money prevents a full restoration, preserving them would be a service to the hobby and you would own an absolute aristocrat of automotive history. Getting them (it?) running should not be prohibitively expensive and then you could clean up the rest, drive to local shows and maybe finance paint and/or interior work later. Good luck and let us all know! Todd

[Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel]

The '38 Cadillac V-16 is my dad's dream car. This one was in hemmings, also in Vermont. He drives it almost every chance he gets, and has fun with it. Of course that makes it worth less money but for dad its not about the money, its about having V-16 torque! He rebuilt the engine...not for the faint of heart!

[old car fan]

Dave ,was at a auction a few months back,looking but not really needing the car.A v-16 caddi ,all original,real nice car ,sitting for some time ,ran great ,but to drive,may needed some work to be safe,78 grand,the car was well worth the money,a 16 runing is so sweet.

[old car fan]

wild cat ,why does driving it ,make it worth less money?Its worth way more than letting it sit ,or trailering the car,just think of the fun your dad is having,the car is priceless

[West Peterson]

Wow. Seeing one of those engines torn apart like that makes you wonder why they called it a V16. It looks more like a boxer.

[old car fan]

west ,they run almost like the sleeve valve knight moter,no sound to speak of at idle,just super.I could not imagine the cost for a rebuild?

[Dynaflash8]

If you have storage, it doesn't cost that much to pick up the cars and save them. If you can afford the restoration, better still. However, if not, it would be a benefit to the hobby and to history to pick the cars up so that no chopper can get them, and place them into good hands when the opportunity comes along. It would be hard to lose money doing that, if you don't have to pay garage rent, or pay it for too long. Whatever might be missing could be extremely difficult to find, if it can't be made. For example, I once knew a man in Baltimore who had owned and stored a 1938 V-16 coupe since 1946, and this was in the late 1970's or early 1980's. All during that time he had been searching for a grill. The grill had been broken out in a fender bender prior to 1946 when he got the car. Sadly, in 1946-47, he might have been able to get a new grill from GM if he had looked into it, but he didn't. Get the cars. It won't take long to find a qualified buyer if you don't want to keep and restore one yourself.

[Dynaflash8]

Hello Dave, great find, good for you. Just to echo a few points:

2. Despite that they cannot be economically restored by an amateur. A quick, inauthentic job is a waste of money on a car like this, but likewise you cannot pay for full restoration by a professional and recoup your money. A bit of a catch 22, BUT:

Todd

I have to say............I've met quite some number of "amateurs by definition" who can do better restoration work than "professionals of some renown".

[old car fan]

Dynaflash8,it,s all in the heart ,of the project,thats why we see way to many cars listed as partally restored

[hddennis]

To hunt for a V16 grille for 35 years tells me he must have been looking for a free one! They are not THAT scarce. The 75 series Cadillac's used the same grille.

Howard Dennis

[alsancle]

If you have storage, it doesn't cost that much to pick up the cars and save them. If you can afford the restoration, better still. However, if not, it would be a benefit to the hobby and to history to pick the cars up so that no chopper can get them, and place them into good hands when the opportunity comes along. It would be hard to lose money doing that, if you don't have to pay garage rent, or pay it for too long. Whatever might be missing could be extremely difficult to find, if it can't be made. For example, I once knew a man in Baltimore who had owned and stored a 1938 V-16 coupe since 1946, and this was in the late 1970's or early 1980's. All during that time he had been searching for a grill. The grill had been broken out in a fender bender prior to 1946 when he got the car. Sadly, in 1946-47, he might have been able to get a new grill from GM if he had looked into it, but he didn't. Get the cars. It won't take long to find a qualified buyer if you don't want to keep and restore one yourself.

Do you really think that someone would chop up a V16?? The original poster gives no details as to where the cars are and who has them. Also, he gives no details as to his intentions. I think all of us read in to these sorts of posts and then the thread goes off in all kinds of directions. This is why I was abrupt in my first response. Most of the time when the original poster has a low post count and they ask a general question about value (this is basically a what's it worth thread in disguise) they are looking to flip the car.

[West Peterson]

west ,they run almost like the sleeve valve knight moter,no sound to speak of at idle,just super.I could not imagine the cost for a rebuild?

You are right. My dad had a 1938 Sixteen and it was whisper quiet and had a lot of get up and go. In 1970 (roughy), we were in a small-town restaurant in Ontario, with our 1940 Packard parked outside. In walks a man and says there's a guy just down the road who owns a similar looking car, a Cadillac V16, and he thinks it's for sale. We got directions and stopped on our way out of town. We ended up buying the car for $1,200 ($900 U.S.), with the agreement that he finish some more of the restoration and to meet us half way when it was done (we lived in Minnesota at the time). I think we owned the car for about 10 years. We took it on only one tour, and decided that 5.5mpg took a lot of fun out of touring. If you've ever seen the made-for-tv-movie Eleanor and Franklin, the car is prominently featured in the very first seen as it pulls up to the Little White House.

[West Peterson]

To hunt for a V16 grille for 35 years tells me he must have been looking for a free one! They are not THAT scarce. The 75 series Cadillac's used the same grille.

Howard Dennis

Not so, Howard. The 90 series grille is unique.

[Rusty_OToole]

I have to say............I've met quite some number of "amateurs by definition" who can do better restoration work than "professionals of some renown".

Have you ever seen a car that belonged to someone who knew nothing about old cars, but decided to "fix 'er up" on the cheap and sell for a big profit? I have, and it's not pretty. In many cases it would cost twice as much to restore or replace the messed up and missing parts, as it would have cost to do it right in the first place.

One that took place just last year. A 1956 Packard was for sale on Ebay. It had a Buick engine installed. The owner figured, I paid $3500 for the car then spent $4500 having a junkyard engine put in, so it should be worth at least $3500+$4500= $8000. His math was correct. He just didn't know old cars. I had to tell him the car may have been worth $3500 when he started, but with the wrong engine it was worth $2500. He got sore as hell but he put it on Ebay anyway.

Top bid, $2200.

The sad part was for $4500 he could have rebuilt the original engine. But Elmer's Garage told him "you can't get parts for them old things no more" (not true) and "I got a Buick engine that will fit her real good". He didn't know any different so he took the advice of the local "expert".

Edited November 12, 2009 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Seldenguy]

West---A friend had a '38 75 series and he told me that the sheet metal surrounding the grille on a 16 was only available on the 90 series and the grille was special to the 90 series. I concur on the grille, the sheet metal?- --Bob

[Guest Twunk Rack]

ALL sheet metal on the '75's and the '90's was the same. The grills for the '75 and the '90 will inter-change. Sad to say, those grills were fragile. I was never able to find a decent '90 grill (mine had been changed over to a '75 grill). Even in the mid 1950's "90" grills were simply impossible to come by.

[JustDave]

guys i appreciate all the feed back ive got,when i asked if it was worth getting envolved in i was refering to the car not the value,ive restored antique,muscle cars an many other type cars and know if its not a labor of love stay away from it,because youll have more in time an money than the value of the vehicle,if ive offended anyone i apologize an in the future i think ill keep my questions to myself

[Dynaflash8]

Do you really think that someone would chop up a V16??

I've avoided using the word "street rod" but now I will. The answer is "yes, absolutely." If you lived in south central Florida you'd believe it too. They will street rod absolutely anything if they can afford to buy it. The original poster hasn't said how expensive these cars are, but some of the people who modify have plenty and plenty more money. It's the most depressing thing about living here in this part of Florida.

[Dynaflash8]

You are right. If you've ever seen the made-for-tv-movie Eleanor and Franklin, the car is prominently featured in the very first seen as it pulls up to the Little White House.

West, my blue 39 Buick had a white wall tire in that movie. All the scenes were were at in Washington, DC were at night. It was a lot different than my Tora, Tora, Tora and The Secret Files of J. Egar Hoover experiences with movie making. And yes ALSANKLE I'm off the subject, I know. Sorry.

[MCHinson]

JustDave,

I know nothing about V16 Cadillacs other than what I have read here. Based on your previous posts, it was clear to me that you were not somebody just trying to buy something to flip. Your previous posts seem to reflect decades of experience with some pretty rare cars.

Don't think you have to keep your questions to yourself. I have enjoyed reading this discussion. I love the look of the V16 Cadillacs and now I know a little bit more about them. Unfortunately, I think that (personally) I would have to stay away from them myself because my pockets are not deep enough (unless one of them was really cheap and in good drivable condition).

Please tell us more about them, keep us in the loop, if you get them, if not, let others here know more about them so that someone may be able to save them. It has been fun reading about them and learning more about them. Thanks.

[Dynaflash8]

Have you ever seen a car that belonged to someone who knew nothing about old cars, but decided to "fix 'er up" ".

Rusty, you're absolutely correct, but not every amateur is that amateur. I've built five Senior winners and they've all been done outside of any restoration shop. True, some of the craftsmen were professionals who did work on the side, but no restoration shop. And, the best painter I've ever met never worked in a body shop except as a teenager. On top of that, he is an exceptional mechanic, and an electronics magician. However, the owner has to be the manager, at minimum, and as such, he has to know what is needed, what he wants, and what is expected in order to win. I'm still learning after 48 years in AACA. And too, I've seen some awful work that came out of what some would call "well known" restoration shops. Al, I'm off the subject again. Sorry again. :)O

[West Peterson]

ALL sheet metal on the '75's and the '90's was the same. The grills for the '75 and the '90 will inter-change. Sad to say, those grills were fragile. I was never able to find a decent '90 grill (mine had been changed over to a '75 grill). Even in the mid 1950's "90" grills were simply impossible to come by.

A friend of mine made a few of the 90 series grilles out of brass. Perhaps the 1938 sheet metal is the same for the 75 and 90 series, but it isn't the same for 1939-1940.

Edited November 12, 2009 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

guys i appreciate all the feed back ive got,when i asked if it was worth getting envolved in i was refering to the car not the value,ive restored antique,muscle cars an many other type cars and know if its not a labor of love stay away from it,because youll have more in time an money than the value of the vehicle,if ive offended anyone i apologize an in the future i think ill keep my questions to myself

JustDave, please don't feel that way. We've all learned a lot, thanks to you just asking a simple question. A little chat when you can learn something is great for the soul. I hope I, personally, didn't say anything to offend you. I happen to know you a bit, and have appreciated your advice and counsel, and so I surely wouldn't want to be the cause of your not posting again.

[JustDave]

thanks to everyone

[Guest kaycee]

Hi Just Dave,

With your prior experience,if the price is 'right' on these cars, buy them to restore one and save them. If it was just a matter of how deep your pockets are to have some shop or shops do all the work, 90% of the cars in the AACA would'nt be here. There are obviously a few guys that can do at least some wrench turning , painting, etc. on a car and land up with a top notch car with out spending tons of money on a car (Classic or not) with an outside restoration shop or shops . Oh, I wish I could chrome and nickle plate though! Good luck, and please keep us posted.

kaycee

[hddennis]

Well, I stand corrected, it appears that although the 75 and 90 series grilles look similiar and might interchange the 90 or V16 has a coarser eggcrate. I was merely passing on misinformation given to me almost 30 years ago.I still think the fenders are all the same as my 1940 seemed to have the same fenders used on 1938-39 75's minus the 3 chrome spears.

Howard Dennis

[West Peterson]

I apologize to JustDave for his thread going off course.

But just to be clear, while the sheet metal on the Sereis 75 and 90 for 1938 may be the same (grilles are different), the 39-40 sheet metal is different between the Series 75 and 90.

Left photo is a Sereis 90 (V16) and the right photo is a Series 75 (V8).

Edited November 12, 2009 by West Peterson (see edit history)

[poci1957]

Hey Dave, do not think you have upset anyone or caused any trouble, I am sure we all have enjoyed speculating on what to suggest to you. Any apparent arguing about grilles and sheetmetal is not a problem, it is just an on-line version of shooting the bull in someone's garage. As you can see we WANT to offer advice and actually the more you can tell about your car and your own experience and situation will help everyone contribute good information. Of course you may get MORE advice than you really need but we all enjoy putting in our $.02, thank YOU for posting, Todd C

BTW, to Dynaflash8, you are certainly right about the potential of an "amateur" and I totally agree that a patient home restorer who learns the craft can yield superior results, even compared to some pros. But as you have observed at your local shows, patience and craft seem to be much, MUCH less common than quick and cheap fix up attempts. Also, like you, I cringe at someone buying that car and dropping in a 350 and do not doubt that possibility for a second.

[Guest Twunk Rack]

I . . . . But just to be clear, while the sheet metal on the Sereis 75 and 90 for 1938 may be the same (grilles are different), . . . the 39-40 sheet metal is different between the Series 75 and 90. . . . t photo is a Sereis 90 (V16) and the right photo is a Series 75 (V8).

You are not being "clear". The '38 V-16 (the correct terminolgy is Series 90) sheet metal is not "may"...it IS the same as the '38 V-8 (Series 75).

Is it possible I have had a bit more contact with 1938 Cadillacs than you?

I did not discuss 1939 or 1940 production, because I didn't own a 1939 or 1940 Series 90 OR Series 75 for that matter. Another reason I did not discuss 1939 or 1940 Series 90 (OR Series 75 for that matter) production, is because the guy was asking about 1938 Cadillac Series 90 production.

O.K..now that I have been mean to poor ole West, let me follow his "lead" and go a little further.

As West points out, 1939-1940 production did have different "front clip" sheet metal for the 8's and the 16. The dash changed too.

Some of you may not know that Cadillac had TWO V-16's - the 1930-1937 production run, which was a "beautiful-to-look at" over-head valve motor finished to jewelry-case standards. Its problem was it couldn't "breathe" (which explains why a Packard V-12 could blow its doors off - take a look at the "swept volume" of the EE-3 carb. that was also "spec'd" for later Duesenburgs, and you will see why).

The '38-'40 V-16 was an entirely different motor than the earlier & much "prettier" one. Much lighter, and cheaper to manufacture. Its exterior was hidden by the more stream-lined sheet-metal of the later-designed "front clip", which is just as well, because the motor's exterior wasn't finished up like the earlier over-head valve motor.

It was MUCH more "modern" in concept - if memory serves, it was "square", meaning a VERY short stroke. The short stroke, combined with improved balancing technique, made the '38-'40 V-16 literally electric-motor smooth - making a well-maintained Packard V-12, as smooth and as silent as they are, seem like a thrashing machine by comparison.

The problem with the short-stroke '38 - '40 version of the V-16, is that the fuels of that era (and its "flat-head" design) did not permit the kind of high compression ratio that would be necessary to get any real power out of it. And it, too, did not have the advanced "breathing" design of the Packard V-12. As a side-note, Packard went to much greater lengths in suspension refinements for extreme speed handling, than Cad. did during that era.

Couple all that together, together with the fact that the Packard V-12 had about 40 cu. in. more on it, plus "wedge shaped" combustion chamber and wedge-shaped pistons.........And now you know why, when in 1956 I needed some money, and HAD to sell one, as between my "mint" '38 Cad V-16, & my slightly scraggly Packard V-12 - guess which one is still mine, and was out getting the hell beat out of it yesterday...! ( and still scraggly compared to that "mint" V-16....!)

( hey...West...see how much trouble you got me into, by expanding on what the guy who started this thread originally asked about...! )

[West Peterson]

Sorry 'bout that, chief.