Restoring cracked/broken cast manifolds?

[Frantz]

I decided to do all the upper gaskets on my '54 Ford 239 Y block and when taking off the exhaust manifold I found the one corner to be broken off, but still there. It's broken to the runner so would certainly cause a exhaust leak. Is it reasonable to have someone braze this together or will the heat and expansion be too much? Not that I can't find a new set, but I hate to toss something that can still be useful! (I have a shop full of parts to prove that much....)

[bobg1951chevy]

I'm not a welder of cast, but can tell you these manifolds appear on ebay.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Our regional newsletter had an article written by

a member on that subject:  His Packard manifold

had a crack that grew and needed repair.  A local

welder (in Penna.) made several attempts that 

did not work.

 

He recommends Midwest Cylinder Head and Machine

in Nevada, Iowa.  They reportedly even have a video

posted on Youtube.  They also repair cylinder blocks.

 

Summary of procedure, according to the article:

Magnaflux the item to identify all cracks needing repair.

Secure it to a fixture to ensure that it doesn't warp.

Place in oven to heat it to approx. 1200 degrees F.

Flow cast iron into the repair areas.

Lengthy cool-down process.

Afterward, they machine any areas that need it.

 

Our member then had the manifold porcelainized at

Prairie Auto Porcelain in Faribault, Minnesota.

 

Thank goodness for competent craftsmen!  You just

have to know where they are.  Even if you can find a

simple used replacement for your Ford, Doug, this

description may help others.

Edited June 19, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Bud Tierney]

There're several very good manifold repairers/rebuilders/fabricators mentioned in the the old-tractor/ag machinery sites...

Seems those manifolds are particularly affected by the on=off seasonal usage and the highly corrosive effects of mouse urine---they love to nest in manifolds...

Don't recall any speeific names but a batch should come up Googling vintage manifold repair or similar...

[Frantz]

Thanks for the feedback! For the sake of cost I might just find a set.... but now I can feel good about keeping the broken set "just in case"!

[JV Puleo]

It is called "Furnace Welding" and is the only really reliable way to repair cast iron. There aren't many shops that still do it, mostly because of lack of demand. When lots of things were made of cast iron, the technique was fairly well known. There might still be a problem with an exhaust manifold due to the extreme heat it has been exposed to thousands of times but that is the only technique with a reasonably good chance of working well.

[Bhigdog]

26 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

There might still be a problem with an exhaust manifold due to the extreme heat it has been exposed to thousands of times

 

Yup................Bob

[Ivan Saxton]

Brazing is not recommended, because is has a very different coefficient of linear expansion.      In the early 1970s we had a very rough AS160 Inter tip truck on the farm. It did a lot of work shifting clay from around the dams to make a raft track across  the peat swamp to the paddocks on the other side .  The exhaust manifold was broken right through.  I used about 15% diesel in the petrol to prevent vapour lock in the fuel lines.   Eventually the engine became lazy to the point of uselessness, about 1974.  I pulled the head off and faced the valves.  The exhausts I rebuilt with Elwood Haynes' cobalt "Stellite" alloy.  The pistons had a lot of rock across the thrust , so I had them expanded by a selective hammering process, and blessed it with new set of piston rings.  We continued to use it till my father sold the farm.   Stuart Middlehurst had a similar Inter in a secondary transport business, which was used a lot because he fitted one of the first hydraulic self-loading cranes.  That was very handy for our antique cars. ( Stuart was interested in Hispano Suizas, and ten still exist if you count two with aero V8 Hispano engines in Hispano chassis.)   Well, that engine died, and the truck needed to work, so Stuart took the one from the paddock tipper, and it never faltered in over 20 years.  My welded exhaust manifold was still on it.   I used a new manifold gasket to drill holes in a solid piece of rolled steel joist to keep it straight.  It was just a case of suitably grinding the joint, bring it all up near welding temperature evenly, and weld it with an oxy-acetylene torch of suitable tip size, using cast iron filler rod about 3/16"diameter, and cast iron welding flux.       I can check the details, and know people who would know what was in the flux. today I would cover it with high temp fibreglass matting to cool slowly.  I think I used an acetylene-rich flame.  It is probably sensible to grind away a bit of the surface that may likely to be contaminated by lead from the petrol.
 

[C Carl]

I have a friend , a blacksmith and phenomenally skilled old car guy , tell me that even the iron welding rod is becoming scarce. The R.H. ex. manifold on my '24 Cadillac was cracked and successfully welded many decades before I got it almost 30 years , and thousands of miles ago. (I suspect this was provoked by a loose exhaust system on that side , unusually loading the manifold). It is probably the strongest point on that robust manifold , and I have come to admire it. A battle scar. Or beauty mark. Hmmm I wonder if I have a pic of it on file. I hope I don't have to go over to it to get a pic.   -Carl

[C Carl]

I found one ! If you click into hi res , and zoom in , you will see , just before the manifold turns down , why I think it must have been bearing an unusual load. Also , just for fun , you see my friend and me standing in front of one of his shops. (Yes , he is a Buick guy - you all know the love shared between Buick and Cadillac guys). He is the guy who looks big enough to swing that blacksmiths hammer - he is. Just a Southern California Country Blacksmith. I found a well-known professional car guy to buy that rare 2 door LaSalle off him , none other than Wes Rydell (how is it coming along , Wes ? I hope we get to see what you do with it). Do any of you know Wes , or the P.O. , Larry ?  - Carl

[mcdarrunt]

I don't know how Henry's guys did it but on the 1937 V8 60 engines the entire sides of the block had steel plates welded to the cast iron block. Top, bottom, front, back, and the welds were PERFECT. Have heard them referred to as "tin sides". Back in the day I used to braze or cast iron rod weld "split" manifolds for the rodders. Would pre-heat, weld, peen, and cool slowly but now with a mig and mild wire I media blast to white, bevel, and run a bead. No pre-heat or cool down. Works most of the time but not always. Wouldn't do it on a super rare piece.

[JV Puleo]

For welding supplies, I would take a look at a company called Muggy Weld. They supply specialty welding, brazing and soldering materials. There is a long thread on the Practical Machinist site, in the Antique Machinery sub-forum, on the restoration of a Springfield Lathe. (I think the title of the thread is "Saving a Springfield.") The gentleman doing it is extremely competent and has used their materials several times to repair handles and levers I would have considered beyond saving. With that in mind, I've found that antique machinery guys, who customarily dismiss the chance of ever finding replacement parts, are much more creative in repairing them than car guys generally are.

[Friartuck]

I too suggest Muggy Weld for their #72 and #77 Cast Iron arc Welding rod. #72 is for dirty cast iron such as an exhaust manifold (high carbon content). #77 is for cleaner cast iron. Once a layer of the #72 is applied, it can be topped with the #77 for which can be machined. You have to lay down a Back stitch bead using their rods. FYI, follow instructions carefully. Though they don't require it, some preheating using an Oxy-accl helps. https://www.muggyweld.com/products/

Edited June 20, 2017 by Friartuck (see edit history)

[cahartley]

5 hours ago, Ivan Saxton said:

 I used a new manifold gasket to drill holes in a solid piece of rolled steel joist to keep it straight.  It was just a case of suitably grinding the joint, bring it all up near welding temperature evenly, and weld it with an oxy-acetylene torch of suitable tip size, using cast iron filler rod about 3/16"diameter, and cast iron welding flux.       I can check the details, and know people who would know what was in the flux.
 

 

I had a chunk of steel flat bar at the shop for just this purpose except clamped them down to keep them straight.

To say brazing won't hold isn't quite true as we did them both ways depending on the condition of the iron......eg; how much actual iron is left in it.

The only way to repair manifolds suffering from iron burn out is gas welding using cast iron filler rod.

The best flux is reddish iron oxide powder.

Edited June 20, 2017 by cahartley (see edit history)

[nickelroadster]

Check out the Lock-n-stitch company in Turlock  CA.  They sell a large variety of cast iron repair products and also do the work themselves.  They do a lot of repair on large diesel marine engines.  They repaired an overhead valve head with six cracks for my 1915 Olds several years ago and it its still chugging along.

[ricosan]

I had this straight eight manifold successfully "braised" about 3 years ago. I know it looks hopeless! I took it to a local welder who heated the manifold before braising in his makeshift oven.  I've put over 4000 miles on the engine since and have experienced no problems.  I've since found another manifold in case this one ever fails.

 

Good luck.

 

ricosan

[Frantz]

Went to the local welder shop and talked with a nice old man: "yeah my dad used to do that, but I'm not interested in taking on that kind of work"

On to the next guy!

[Guest]

A local welding shop "allowed" a welder in their employ to use their equipment to weld my manifold on his own time.  They said it was because they did not want to be responsible for loss, damage or future warranty if he did it on their time. 

[Restorer32]

We restored a '28 Autocar. The exhaust manifold was broken into two pieces. We had a company on Long Island do the repair. It was expensive but the repair was invisible. It has held up for more than 20 years so far. It can be done if you find a welder with the right equipment and skill set. In your case probably easier and less expensive to find an unbroken manifold.

[PFitz]

52 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

We restored a '28 Autocar. The exhaust manifold was broken into two pieces. We had a company on Long Island do the repair. It was expensive but the repair was invisible. It has held up for more than 20 years so far. It can be done if you find a welder with the right equipment and skill set. In your case probably easier and less expensive to find an unbroken manifold.

 

Would that be Superweld in Farmingdale, L.I. ? I've used them for the long exhaust manifolds of Pierce straight 8's. They did excellent work.

 

Paul

Edited June 22, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

I can't seem to remember their name but it wasn't Superweld.

[Friartuck]

Could it have been Cool Weld in Long Island City?

[Restorer32]

No, I think their name actually included Long Island but it's been at least 20 years.