322 engine tear down

[Beemon]

I need some help because I've never rebuilt an engine before, but I figure of I can rebuild a carburetor, I can rebuild an engine. 

 

I tried replacing the rear main, but I've just got too much oil leaking to the point where I can't even enjoy the car. The lifters tick, the road draft filter is plugged, installed hardened valve seats against my will, and who knows what else is wrong. There's a gentleman selling a virgin 56 322 in British Columbia for $500 and I have to pull the engine anyways to remove the crank, I figure I might as well start fresh. All I know about the engine is that it has a hole through one piston but from the images, the cylinders look good. 

 

I need to know what's okay to keep, what needs to be replaced, the best vendors, etc. I'm hoping I can get away with .006 over bore and use stock pistons, but if they have to bore it out, does anyone sell the correct pistons? What about quality lifters and cam, oil pump, valves and springs? Do crankshafts ever need to be replaced? 

 

I am really beyond upset. I mean I knew this day was coming but it just makes me not want to ever do an old car again, and really makes me mistrust people in the profession. I don't normally write bad reviews, but there is going to be one up tomorrow morning that will tarnish their reputation. The engine has less than 10,000 miles on it!

[Bob Engle]

Go to the Centerville Auto Repair  web site.  This guy knows nailheads.  He has great teck info on his site and I have found him very helpful when I talked with him on the phone.  He has some definite "does and don'ts" concerning the unique characteristics of the nailheads.

 

Bob Engle

[NC-car-guy]

27 minutes ago, Bob Engle said:

Go to the Centerville Auto Repair  web site.  This guy knows nailheads.  He has great teck info on his site and I have found him very helpful when I talked with him on the phone.  He has some definite "does and don'ts" concerning the unique characteristics of the nailheads.

 

Bob Engle

Bob is right.  Between Russ and Willie i dont think you could miss anything! 

[MrEarl]

7 minutes ago, wndsofchng06 said:

Bob is right.  Between Russ and Willie i dont think you could miss anything! 

 

What you mean is if you "stand" between Russ and Willie.... ? Can I get a like on that Willie? ?

 

Oh crap Benjamin, that's gonna suck up some tuition bucks there. Can't you find a better candidate for $500 than one with a whole in a piston. ?? How big of a hurry are you to start? 

[NC-car-guy]

I have a couple clean blocks.  One set of ok heads, a crank. Fastenal could get it to you for about $150 if you really wanted.  But can you replace the rear main for now?

[Beemon]

I tried replacing the rear main. It must have "worn in" because I had no oil issues for a while, stopped checking oil levels every day, went on a 30 min highway drive and came home off the off ramp with the lifters ticking away. There was a speck of oil at the bottom of the dip stick. Now there's also this rattling noise on acceleration, and I'm not sure if it's summer blend fuels changing from winter blend fuels or not.

 

Russ was going to be my go to back up, but last time I emailed him he said take a look at my website and that was the end of it. He assumes you already know what you're doing, which I don't and the help stops there.

 

I want to get the engine done before August so I can go to school with the car. Otherwise I have to leave it with either a. Mother,  b. Father. My mother hates men so naturally the car will go to waste and my father is a pot head and I'm afraid he's going to do something rash under the influence with his redneck buddies (the last thing I need is to come home from school and see the car completely stripped of paint with the stainless all chewed up from the sander). And don't suggest storage, because I won't be able to afford it. It took me two tax returns and saving up everything I had to afford the $4200 price tag of the rebuild. I can't do that again, I have to budget for what I can afford now, which means I buy a kit and I do the work myself.

 

The guy whose selling already had it dipped and cleaned and left it because he swapped in a bowtie. I don't know what else is wrong with it other than the piston but he said it comes complete from carburetor to oil pan. The other thing is, I want a 56 322, not a 53-55 322...

Edited April 25, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[MrEarl]

24 minutes ago, Beemon said:

it comes complete with carburetor and air cleaner, ps pump and generator. None of which I need but it's always nice to have two. 

 

oh ok, thought you were talking just the short block. Maybe not too bad a deal then.

[Beemon]

Just now, MrEarl said:

 

oh ok, thought you were talking just the short block. Maybe not too bad a deal then.

 

No he said it's everything. Lifters, pushrods, etc. What was bolted to the engine is what I get. I had to re-read the email he sent me, and it states everything bolted on from carburetor to oil pan, so I may have to have him reiterate but he did mention it was going in a roadster project and he just went with the chevy 350.

[MrEarl]

still you just need to be careful dealing with somebody with no more sense than to go with a SBC over a nailhead... jussayn...

 

if you have it in writing, be careful having him reiterate, reiteration sometimes leads to reneging or adding $$

[Beemon]

Quote

Hello Ben,

The piston is damaged, there is a crack just below the bottom oil ring diagonally toward the conrod

and then below the conrod  at the piston skirt, it needs replacing.The heads with the dirt and grime

it is difficult to say, the block and heads need to be hot tanked. The carb is 2 BRL.

Being a Vintage Engine they are not cheap to rebuild as you know, sounds like you have spent a lot of money on the

engine you have, now comes the decision rebuild the one you have or start with another one.

Thank you for your interest Ben.

 

From memory I thought he said it had been hot tanked, but he said they need to be hot tanked. How much is it usually to clean a block? And what are the chances of the heads being bad?

[Guest]

Greetings Ben

          Its so little effort to run that engine just sitting upright on the ground if nothing else and so much reassurance of condition even if you dont let it run for long. If more than startup, you need to run a radiator, as the combustion chambers heatup so fast without cooling you risk cracking in that area without cooling. Put a radiator on it, take the fan off for safety and run it till it warms up. Without hearing them run I offer max of 150.00 for parts if otherwise complete. Try not to feel to desperate when looking. Recommend you run yours till you find a really good replacement, not taking apart until donor engine sitting there. Most rebuilding shops rebuild high volume engines like sbc. The clearences on a Nailheads are approx 1/2 sbc clearances generally speaking. I contend its easier and less expensive to find excellent running used that you can hear run. Just personal experience. Sometimes the best teacher. I was contacted by a shop in CA. They tried the hardened seat in the nailhead disaster. Looking for a replacement head. Seasoned shop two sons inherited from Dads lifetime effort. They had no idea about hardened seats in nailheads! Not the exception! Suggest if you really want to teach yourself rebuilding, you keep your car operational while you pursue that. Its awfully easy to get stuff taken apart and then one more unexpected life necessity makes it impossible to get the car worked on and running again! Just my 2000 cents.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Beemon]

3 minutes ago, 2carb40 said:

Greetings Ben

          Its so little effort to run that engine just sitting upright on the ground if nothing else and so much reassurance of condition even if you dont let it run for long. If more than startup, you need to run a radiator, as the combustion chambers heatup so fast without cooling you risk cracking in that area without cooling. Put a radiator on it, take the fan off for safety and run it till it warms up. Without hearing them run I offer max of 150.00 for parts if otherwise complete. Try not to feel to desperate when looking. Recommend you run yours till you find a really good replacement, not taking apart until donor engine sitting there. Most rebuilding shops rebuild high volume engines like sbc. The clearences on a Nailheads are approx 1/2 sbc clearances generally speaking. I contend its easier and less expensive to find excellent running used that you can hear run. Just personal experience. Sometimes the best teacher. I was contacted by a shop in CA. They tried the hardened seat in the nailhead disaster. Looking for a replacement head. Seasoned shop two sons inherited from Dads lifetime effort. They had no idea about hardened seats in nailheads! Not the exception! Suggest if you really want to teach yourself rebuilding, you keep your car operational while you pursue that. Its awfully easy to get stuff taken apart and then one more unexpected life necessity makes it impossible to get the car worked on and running again! Just my 2000 cents.

 

Greg, I can't even drive the car without making a stop at the auto parts store and buying 2 quarts of oil to top off. It's not fun anymore. I don't even want to start it and listen to it. The gentleman already has the engine apart and it's the only complete engine in my area. I'm open to offers here on the forums, but it needs to be a complete engine with at least block, head, crank and connecting rods. And it has to be a 56. My engine has been internally balanced to itself and cannot be swapped as far as I know.

 

This is probably too much information, but I suffer from social anxiety and depression. Throughout highschool, I didn't have an outlet other than video games, which only worsened the social anxiety. It's really hard for me to make phone calls as it is. This car has been a gateway for me, and while I'm still a little shy/awkward at drive-ins, this car has built internal bridges for me - as a way to meet and interact with new people and socialize. I feel because I'm naive, I get taken advantage a lot of the time in the process of "restoration". The engine. Power steering pump and gear box. The carburetor. The starter and generator. The distributor. The only thing that's good is the Dynaflow, and that's because the boys who did it are probably the only mechanics I've ever trusted with anything. This car is like a support animal or something for me. I don't need it all the time, but I want it when I need it.

 

About hardened seats - I've heard many horror stories, so I feel like my heads are ticking time bomb in that regard.

[Guest]

Sorry to hear about those personal issues. I wont expound on those issues other than to say with a 30 yr old and a 21 year old I can, surprisibly enuff empathize with some of those issues. On the subject of trust. I know that can be tuff, especially given your recent experiences. You could be better served learning how to take that engine shop to small claims court. Just sayin'. Succesful communication is difficult, but like alot of things takes more practice to learn, not less. It gets less uncomfortable as your confidence builds with time!

[Beemon]

1 minute ago, 2carb40 said:

You could be better served learning how to take that engine shop to small claims court.

 

The issue with that is that he was recommended to me by some locals when he was running his own shop. My engine was the last engine in his shop. And then he closed down and started working for someone else's shop. The best I can do is slander his name, and even then I feel bad about that. I have all the paperwork and warranty information, but it does me no good if the business isn't still around. When I contacted him the first time, he had filed for bankruptcy so no one could go after him. Guess I wasn't the only one?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Beemon said:

 

The issue with that is that he was recommended to me by some locals when he was running his own shop. My engine was the last engine in his shop. And then he closed down and started working for someone else's shop. The best I can do is slander his name, and even then I feel bad about that. I have all the paperwork and warranty information, but it does me no good if the business isn't still around. When I contacted him the first time, he had filed for bankruptcy so no one could go after him. Guess I wasn't the only one?

Over a barrel on that one then! Only thing to do is concentrate on moving forward. Only so much mental capacity, no sense using any on that past unmanageability. Takes up mental capacity and distracts from power to make the next good decision! I think this community can give you great direction!

[JohnD1956]

Beemon, First I want to say I am sorry that you are having this engine issue.  But lets stem the tide of how you got to this place and go back a few steps on the basics of how to get moving ahead.  May I ask some questions while inviting the community to offer other steps to diagnose this issue?

 

1- Have you pulled and documented the condition of your spark plugs?

2- Have you run a new compression test and any form of leakdown test?

3- Do you know if your engine was bored when it was rebuilt?

4- Do you have any documentation which indicates where the rings were purchased?

 

In my opinion I am thinking you may have one or two cylinders which have compromised rings.  If that can be determined with any reliability, it may be possible to pull those one or two pistons while the engine remains in the car.  Then just install a new set of rings and reassemble. 

 

I'll note that it's not the optimal solution, and may again be only temporary, but it is not unheard of for people to change one or two bad pistons and away they go.  We've seen this here.  If you have deeper issues than that, it would make no difference as your car will be setting up at home any way.  Looking towards the long term future, in my humble opinion,  it would be a big mistake to bet your future college tuition on rebuilding an engine hastily.  You are so bright, and capable!  I imagine with your potential that in the not too distant future you will find yourself financially capable of rebuilding an engine or two or three.

 

So I recommend seeing if you can patch the 56 together for the short term, keep looking for an altogether engine that runs and is affordable, and see about some long term storage for the 56 so it's there when you can correct the problems to your satisfaction.  It's not everyone who can have their grandfather's Buick. 

[Kosage Chavis]

2 hours ago, Beemon said:

This is probably too much information, but I suffer from social anxiety and depression.

If it helps Ben, I used to be depressed as well.  It really hit me as soon as I graduated high school.  Did the medication thing and all.  I was also extremely introverted as well, so I completely sympathize with your situation, at least to some degree.  I agree with Mr Greg and there are ways out of it.  My way out of it hit me like an apipheny.  

 

As far as the engines goes, my suggestion to you is to just rebuild the one you have now.  I rebuilt my first engine when I was about 20 years old.  And then I rebuilt another engine even better about 3 years later.  You are very smart bruh.  Don't doubt yourself.  To be honest, I am a little intimidated of rebuilding my nailhead.  It has a few nuances that other engines don't have, but then again, I don't trust anyone else fixing it but myself.  And I know it will be fine.  Besides, you got a good group people on here who got your back.  You got this bruh!  Just don't eat it all up in one bite.  Cut it up into smaller pieces and take smaller bites.  

 

I am right behind you.  I plan on removing the engine out of my car sometime this year and starting to overhaul.  I will be keeping up with this thread.  God bless.

 

 

[Beemon]

13 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

1- Have you pulled and documented the condition of your spark plugs?

2- Have you run a new compression test and any form of leakdown test?

3- Do you know if your engine was bored when it was rebuilt?

4- Do you have any documentation which indicates where the rings were purchased?

1. Spark plugs are 6 months new.  I pulled #1 when I swapped the Rochester for the Carter, they were fine.

2. I have not done a compression test recently, but when I did the rear main seal "fix", the numbers looked ok

3. It was bored .030

4. The only documentation I got was the balance paperwork and a receipt of purchase for the Best Gasket engine kit plus man hours. I am not sure if the rings are from there or not. I'll have to dig and see if there is any other paper work, but off the top of my head that's all I got.

 

After doing the rear main "fix", I am not doing anything on my back under the car, especially when it can rain tomorrow. I did the rear main in a down pour because it wouldn't let up and I regretted it. It's pull the engine or bust.

 

I would like to clarify that money I'm throwing at the engine is my own money, not college tuition money. As with everything I do to the car, it is under a specific budget. This just means I cut something out, like a cheap paint job or front end suspension work.

 

KC, rebuilding the engine I have seems counter productive since it's already been ran through. I would rather take the chance on an engine block that can use stock pistons versus my already worn .030 rebuild. Especially with issues like oil starvation unintentionally, I feel like there are more problems than I know. Plus with the hardened valve seats, it's a real structural weakness in the heads. All it needs is electrolysis to take hold in the water jacket and wreak havoc on the already weakened cast iron.

[SpecialEducation]

I'm gonna start by saying I already don't trust your potential donor engine. a 2bbl out of a Roadmaster? I don't think so. I think what we are seeing here is what normally drives folks to LS swaps... not that I'm condoning it! I tend to think that you are unnecessarily discounting the engine you have. If it's been gone through with new pistons & such, you are probably miles ahead of the unknowns related to the other engine. We KNOW it has one bad piston already, so even if you can get by with a hone, you should be looking at a full set of pistons & rings for it. Maybe the crank needs turned, maybe the valves need to be replaced... this can go downhill FAST. There's no reason to suspect your current pistons are shot or the engine is in need of any major machine work. Modern materials & processes give us much more reliable parts than we had in 1956. Yeah, maybe your heads are sketchy, but rebuilding salvage heads is a long way from the cost of a full long block. That's where a good leakdown test will pay off. If there's blow-by, you need to identify the where & why. Back when this car was new, re-ringing (or even re-sleeving) one or two cylinders in lieu of a full rebuild was commonplace. I understand that it might be nice to do a swap over the weekend and move on, but the devil you know is usually better than the devil you don't. This spare engine sounds like a money pit to me.

I'll also add that one of the important things I learned in college was that it's really hard to have a project car as a daily driver. At one point, I broke down and bought a $300 F*rd station wagon. That car was a PITA sometimes, but it got me around when my turbo Opel engine was in the machine shop (which was often). Edited April 25, 2017 by SpecialEducation (see edit history)

[1956322]

I know you're frustrated we've all been there I would suggest taking a breather... Try to address the leak.. Remove the breather and clean it out that's not a huge deal.. As for the hardened valves I think this subject has been way blown out of the water my engine has hardened seats it was done by a shop I know but before I got the car.. Not a single problem in twenty years..I  know  bad things can happen but hey it's done and they seem to be working fine...I  say  breath... Do some tests check compression fix the leak clean the breather hell maybe replace the lifters but I agree I think getting an unknown engine and dumping that money back into a rebuild again will not work out well and the chance of just a hone job on a sixty year old block is slim.. And impossible if it already has a piston with a hole in it.. The devil you know is always better and cheaper then the unknown speaking from experience 

[Beemon]

1 hour ago, SpecialEducation said:

I'm gonna start by saying I already don't trust your potential donor engine. a 2bbl out of a Roadmaster?

 

No one said Roadmaster, but I get your point. Either way, the engine is coming out.

[SpecialEducation]

Sorry, I misread "roadster project" as "roadmaster project."

[old-tank]

Being too lazy to re-read what you did to fix the seal... what did you do?

Is that your only leak?

Smoking?  fouled plugs?

Valley cover serviced yet?

The engine you have is probably basically okay, since you have many trouble free miles on it.

On the other engine, finding only one standard piston to match the others will be very hard even if it is standard.

More plentiful and cheap:  consider a good running 54 or 55 264 to get you around while you disassemble and analyze your engine.

[Ttotired]

With the others on this

Why buy a broken engine to fix a broken engine?

The work that has been done on your engine cant/wont be all bad, perhaps spending a little money to get a professional to check and diagnose

the problem with it will save you much more money than starting a fresh rebuild.

Hot tanking requires full did assembly of the engine.

Any white metal (cam bearings) must be replaced and all the oil galleries will still need to be cleaned afterwards.

What I am getting at here is your current engine has some sort of issue, but will require much less work than rebuilding another one.

Don't be pigheaded and think you are going to save plenty of money doing it yourself, much of what the "home mechanic" knows has come from expensive, self created, expensive disasters, listening to the advice of other "home mechanics"

Take it to a shop and get their opinion on the engine, and if not happy, take it to another one

You will probably find the $500 your thinking of spending on another engine will go a long way towards repairing whatever is wrong in your engine

 

By the way, before anyone yells at me, I am a tradesman auto electrician and I deal with the misguided advice and subsequent necessary repairs required a lot.

Most of the advice you have been given is spot on here (advising you to fix the one you have). The worse thing you can do is throw your arms up in the air and say f&ck it, I am going to start again

[NTX5467]

I completely understand the logic of starting over with another engine.  Something you can work on as desired, rather than "have to", BUT you'll obviously need a better place to do the work than what you now have.  And a place that is secure so that you can do the work in segments, leave it, and come back to find it as you left it.

 

I concur that the machine work done to your current motor is probably NOT the issue, but how it was put back together, plus some other related things.

 

Unfortunately, it seem that "your mind" is "all over the map" as to what to do next.  THAT complicates things!  Anxiety, depression, procrastination are all related, so best to move past those, but once you determine "the way forward", things get better and in better focus, by observation.

 

Something tells me that you might discover some bearing issues and/or crank sizing issues.  There is normally a certain amount of "throw-off" from the crank and rod bearings, which is how the cam lobes are lubricated.  Excessive clearance down there can result in the oil rings being flooded from the bottom side, which can compromise or overpower their scraping function.  Oil coming up from the bottom will be visible on the edges of the piston crowns, usually. 

 

IF you get another engine to rebuild, you're still going to need a machine shop to do necessary machining work.  Unless the Buick blocks are better than others, they'll take a .030" overbore to get a round cylinder as a result.  Anything less, you'll just be hitting the high spots, so to speak.  BUT that's already been done to your existing engine.  Bored, balanced, and such!  WHY do that again?

 

To pull the crank, you'll need to get the engine on an engine stand and pull it apart.  Heads first, then work downward to the crank area.  When you get the pan off, the bearing caps removed, I suspect you'll find some issues (as I mentioned above).  Invest in a digital caliper or some fresh PlastiGage to check bearing clearances.  Plus a dial indicator to check THRUST clearance!  Look for stamps of how the crankshaft was ground to undersize journals by the crank people.  Hopefully, it was just polished and no more.  Check for wear on the rear main seal area of the journal, too!  At this time, if you can upgrade to a two-piece rubber rear main seal, this would be the time to do that, too.

 

Upon disassembly, picture and document everything as you do it!  It can take time, but can be worth it as you diagnose problem areas that need to be done differently upon reassembly.  Look at piston/cylinder wall clearance, piston ring end gaps, plus bearing clearances.

 

As for the cylinder heads, there are pluses and minuses of the hard seats in a Nailhead V-8.  As they have been done, you might look for any coolant leaks near them, for good measure.  For good measure, you can check the valve spring pressure and valve stem clearances.

 

This WILL be a time consuming operation, although each section won't take that long, per se.  Don't hurry!  Don't order "a kit" unless it's an engine teardown/overhaul gasket kit.  Pistons should be good, Rings should be good, but you'll need "the tool" to reinstall the piston/ring assembly into the engine block's cylinders.  By the way, note any cylinder number stamps on the side of the connecting rods OR put your own marks to designate which cylinder they came out of and so they can be put back in the same hole!

 

In addition to the dial indicator, digital calipers, and such . . .  you'll also need a good torque wrench, plus appropriate tools.  AND plenty of thick plastic trash bags to keep things clean while awaiting for reassembly!

 

There ARE a few kinks and whinks to assembling a Buick engine compared to a Chevy engine.  Sure, they can assemble in similar manners, but each OEM did things a little specific-to-them rather than "as Chevy did".  There is sufficient knowledge base in several active posters to cover that situation, by observation.

 

IF you get another motor to rebuild, you'll be going down a similar road as you've already gone down and had a few rough stretches.  NO need to re-do that! 

 

Of course, you can pull the crank out without taking the upper side apart.  Don't even need to take the pistons out, either, but do get some rubber tubing to cover the threads of the rod bolts with during placement of the crank back "in the saddle".  Doing the PlastiGage tests doesn't need the crank to be removed, either!  You'll need to be able to rotate it in place for the rod bearing checks.  Then the main bearings one at a time with it stationary.

 

REMEMBER the recent comment/thread about only fixing what needs to be fixed, resisting the "While I'm there . . . " orientations?  SAME applies here!

 

If there's THAT much oil getting past the rear main seal, then the torque tube has one heck of an anti-rust coating on it!

 

In oil usage situations, forget about compression tests!  All the compression test checks is the compression ring, The oil ring pack's function is to scrape oil off of the cylinder and NO more.  There can be some contributory affect of the oil ring pack to total compression sealing, but it's not the main function of the oil ring to do the same level of job as the upper compression ring(s).

 

UNTIL you can make all that needs to happen happen, get some inexpensive 30 oil at the discount house (a full case of quarts and maybe a gallon jug, if possible) and tolerate what you have to do in the mean time.  Even if things are done shoddily, things don't work decently and suddenly  kaput, generally . . . which seems to be happening to you a lot lately.

 

Please keep us posted on your progress!

NTX5467

[Beemon]

I fortunately have another vehicle to drive for a bit during this period. I just don't like to drive it because it's held over my head.

 

I think I'll keep the engine I have and go from there. The full gasket kit is not expensive and will be a good place to start. I'll probably start into disassembly later this week if everything goes well. I'm still going to do it myself, I'm done consulting experts for a while.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[old-tank]

2 hours ago, Beemon said:

I'm still going to do it myself,

Good choice!

[MrEarl]

3 hours ago, Beemon said:

I'm done consulting experts for a while.

 

So you won't be posting here then I take it

[avgwarhawk]

4 hours ago, Beemon said:

 I'm still going to do it myself,  

 

And when she starts and runs like a champ you can sit back and say,"That is my handy work."    

[Beemon]

11 hours ago, MrEarl said:

 

So you won't be posting here then I take it

No one on these boards have ever claimed to be an expert. They've been called experts, but I'm pretty sure everyone has been humble. Which is why I always come here first.

[NTX5467]

Beemon, back when your Buick was a new car, an "expert" (as seen as "expert witnesses" on "Perry Mason") was somebody who was acknowledged to be in the top 10% of their field.  In more modern times, the term "expert" has tended to mean that one person knows more about  particular subject than another one does -- a "point of reference" sort of orientation.  Personally, I understand both situations!  I do know that people of both definitions do exist in these forums, by observation

 

In the second orientation, I've seen some perceived "experts" who got their knowledge (flawed knowledge, as we later found out) from poor sources in a few of the car club groups I've been associated with.  After being found out, those people came to be on the fringes of the group, IF that close.  Others (more interested in having correct knowledge) corrected their poor knowledge by admitting their faults and seeking out better mentors . . . for the good of all involved.

 

If you research things on the Internet, my experience has been that the same information gets re-posted several times.  In some cases, that original post is flawed in some manner, yet it's quoted over and over again.  The number of repostings are seen by some as "correct knowledge", although it might not be completely accurate.  Postings which tend to gain credibility, which might not be completely deserved.  THIS can be a problem!  As with local issues, finding those who fit the first definition (above) of "expert" can be difficult and take quite some time to orchestrate.

 

On the other hand, "expert" can be such a finite definition.  I'd prefer terminology as "extremely knowledgeable" instead, which indicates, to me, that knowledge is an ever-evolving activity rather than having a definite start and end . . . as are our lives and experiences.   Yet to remain in that upper 10% of their field, knowledge MUST keep expanding to maintain that position.  Once that upper plateau is reached, increments of expansion can be smaller, but still there.  In any event, credibility must be maintained.

 

Some of what we know about Buicks and other mechanisms will not change, but understanding the "Why" of things (design intent, operational dynamics, etc.) can be an ever-evolving situation as some things can open doors to expanding our knowledge of these things.  These things can explain why some things worked great (especially when they were designed and later put into production) as other things didn't work so well although they were based on solid (at the time) theories.  Sometimes, knowing or determining the suspected reason behind those theories can be important (side issues or historical trends at the time of design/production).  Passing on or sharing this historical knowledge can assist newer generations of enthusiasts can help them understand how we got to where we now are and where things might end up in the coming years.

 

Beemon, if you end up "being silent" for a while as you get your vehicular issues sorted out, I feel safe in saying that we (as a group) understand AND await your later posts of what you found.

 

NTX5467  

 

.

Edited April 27, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[SpecialEducation]

Wow, that's quite a definition. Here's mine: Back when my dad worked for Raytheon, he was in an area where there were "specialists" and there were "experts." One of my dad's duties as an expert was to train specialists. The question would often come up, "What exactly *is* an expert?" Well the answer is quite simple. An 'ex' is someone who has been something, but isn't anymore. A 'spurt' is a sudden leak, like a drip, but with more pressure behind it. So an expert is a has-been drip under pressure.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 minute ago, SpecialEducation said:

Wow, that's quite a definition. Here's mine: Back when my dad worked for Raytheon, he was in an area where there were "specialists" and there were "experts." One of my dad's duties as an expert was to train specialists. The question would often come up, "What exactly *is* an expert?" Well the answer is quite simple. An 'ex' is someone who has been something, but isn't anymore. A 'spurt' is a sudden leak, like a drip, but with more pressure behind it. So an expert is a has-been drip under pressure.

 

 I wanted to say that last sentence, but chickened out.

   Ben, we are here for you if needed.

 

  Ben

[1956322]

Any updates??

[Beemon]

I work nights 40 hours a week with some mandatory overtime. Where I was going to do it, that avenue came and went, so now I have to either clean the garage out (not likely, it's a huge mess and about 5% of it is my stuff - last time I dug into it my mother almost took my life), or find somewhere else to do it. I don't have any friends to put up a wayward Buick and don't have the cash to front for storage. I still have to order a kit, too, but I need storage first.

[Fr. Buick]

Be patient, friend, it will happen if you persist.

[Beemon]

I have been helping my dad move into a new place the past two weeks on my day's off. He's out on the coast and it hasn't been without some fun. My uncle lives 30 mins from him and he had a 1966 IH Scout I6 and a 1970 Chevy C20 350ci parked in the barn/carport area that haven't been running in a few years. We got both of them started and moved so I've kind of adopted two new engines between two old men that used to rod in the 70s and 80s but apparently lost the trade when they had to "grow up" (IE kids). So I got back into town, handed the guy at Autozone a $50 and pulled the spark plugs in the parking lot. I did a compression test tonight, and here are my results:

1. 115
2. 105
3. 125
4. 120
5. 115
6. 115
7. 115
8. 105

So it looks like I have two bad cylinders on the same side of the engine, but I feel like these numbers are less than satisfactory for an engine with only 8000 miles on it (if I'm being generous). Here are the plugs:

L2R: 7,5,3,1

8,6,4,2 (looks like I found a partial oil leak, too. Been wondering why the starter has been dripping...)

 

The picture makes them kind of whiter than they were, but they were a pretty decent tan. So I guess that says something about my carb tuning abilities... too lean? I'm not sure what happened to #3... according to the guide at AutoZone, it says ash deposits are an excess of oil in the combustion chamber or something... I hope the guides aren't worn...

 

Anyways, I'll be clearing some space in the garage this weekend hopefully. I won't really get into pulling the engine until my next set of days off, though. It's actually kind of depressing, I was hoping for the best, but this engine is worse than a stock 2 barrel low compression Syncromesh Special (140psi), when it should be 170psi minimum. I figured being .030 over, that it would have been somewhere around 150psi with the "low compression" pistons, but man...

Edited May 20, 2017 by Beemon
got my numbers mixed up (see edit history)

[Bloo]

You cant really tell much about static compression ratio with a compression gauge. Everyones gauge behaves a little differently, cranking speed affects the readings (condition of the battery, gear ratio of the starter drive, etc). The cam grind affects it too. Some people hold the throttle wide open while taking the reading, some do not. Readings can be dry (lower) or wet (with a drop or two of oil, higher).

 

The main thing with a compression gauge is that the readings are fairly close to the same. yours are. I wouldn't have been upset at all about those readings on a 9:1 Mopar back in the day. On the other hand one of my friends was driving around a Buick Electra with a 401 Nailhead and couldn't get good enough gas for it. The compression ratio was just too high.

 

It's way better for the static compression ratio to be too low than a teeny bit too high.

 

You can tell a lot more about the condition of an engine with a leakdown test, but the static compression ratio generally has to be measured with the engine apart.

 

Your plugs look mostly ok. Light tan is perfect (other colors are possible with the gas now). Too rich would be black, Too lean would be white, often combined with signs of overheating or detonation (little balls of metal).

 

The one plug with the buildup is most likely oil burning. If these plugs were in when you were experimenting with PCV, it could have easily come from that. The oily ones could be oil burning, but probably aren't. They look too clean. Oil can come up the spark plug threads on an oil burning engine. I doubt it though. If theres any sign the oil could have come from the outside, like a leaking valve cover gasket or oil cap, then it probably did come from the outside.

 

 

[Beemon]

2 minutes ago, Bloo said:

The one plug with the buildup is most likely oil burning. If these plugs were in when you were experimenting with PCV, it could have easily come from that. The oily ones could be oil burning, but probably aren't. They look too clean. Oil can come up the spark plug threads on an oil burning engine. I doubt it though. If theres any sign the oil could have come from the outside, like a leaking valve cover gasket or oil cap, then it probably did come from the outside.

 

The two plugs on the driver side bank had oil in the wells, not actually from the cylinder. My valve covers are warped, but I never noticed with the spark plug covers on that they have been leaking. I thought about my PCV experiment, too, but I find it odd that only one plug is like that out of 8.

 

Regarding compression testing, throttle was held open like it says in he shop manual. It also says in the shop manual that 140 PSI is for Special Syncromesh, 160 PSI for Special Dynaflow and 170 PSI for all other models. Plus, everything I've ready said readings have to be within the 20% range of all cylinders and at 100-105 PSI (I was really being optimistic here) compared to 120-125 PSI seems too low for these cylinders. Cam is stock as far as I know.

 

I've never performed a leak down test before, though. That just puts pressure on the rings, right?

[Bloo]

On a compression test its the balance that matters. The 20 percent usually means balance. In a perfect world cylinders would all be exactly the same, but with rough cast combustion chambers it just varies. Many shop manuals say 20 percent. On a new engine I would expect it to more or less meet that, but wouldn't suspect trouble if it barely missed. Random cars off the street could have 25 percent or maybe even a little more and not be broken. If your lowest was 100psi, 20 percent would be 120psi. Thats not far off from what you are seeing.

 

Matching the absolute numbers in the book is another thing entirely. I have a pretty good compression gauge (snap-on), and have never duplicated another person's exact numbers. The balance will be the same as any other competent person gets. If there is a cylinder at 40psi (burned valve) it will still be super low when I test it. If cylinder 6 was the highest compression, it still will be. I ignore the absolute numbers entirely, unless its so far low or high that I suspect wrong valve timing.

 

Compression testing is easy and quick, and can find stuff like burned valves (most common cause of a cylinder way lower than the others) or worn compression rings (by dry checking and then wet checking). Leakdown testing is more trouble but tells you a lot more. You have to bring each cylinder to exact TDC, then adjust a regulator on the tester. It tells you PERCENTAGE OF LEAKAGE. Again, like compression results vary with different people and different testers, but some average cars might have 20 percent. some tired but just fine ones might have even 35. A new engine, fully broken in, might have on the order of 5 if its really good. It might be 10. You want less. 2 would be nice, but if you have that, you probably spent hours in the machine shop nitpicking every last little detail of every detail of every detail. In the real world I doubt you will ever see it.

 

Those numbers assume it is all ring leakage. While the tester is running listen for air. Figure out where the air is going. This is where the leakdown tester really shines. If an exhaust valve is burned, It will hiss out the exhaust pipe. If an intake valve is warped or burned (extremely rare) it will hiss out the intake (open the throttle and listen). A head gasket blown between cylinders would hiss out the adjacent cylinder. A head gasket blown into the water jacket blows bubbles in the radiator. It should only hiss through the crankcase (listen at oil cap), because the leakage should all be through the rings. One cylinder with a much higher leakage number might indicate a broken ring or holed piston or a scored cylinder.

 

Have someone disconnect the air from tester for a moment while you listen to the various leak points, so you don't get fooled by the "sea shell" effect.

 

The reason I thought of your PCV experiment was that I thought there wasn't an actual pcv port on the carb. If the port was out in a manifold runner I would expect the oil to go to one cylinder. Maybe 2. On a carbureted car, a tiny air leak at a vacuum connection on a manifold runner can cause a miss on one cylinder by making it too lean. I would expect oil vapor to follow the same path, and foul one plug.