Transmission fluid as a lead substitute....???

[Guest ZondaC12]

Yep another thread about lead in fuel sorry guys!

Im a member of www.corral.net/forums, it is geared toward mustangs of any vintage including new but seems to be mostly populated by fox-body (1979-93) guys. I have a fox-body 1987 cougar with the 302 v8 so i get some help at this place.

There was a dicsussion recently in the off-topic section about "stupid comments you get from stupid people about your car" due to things like supercharger whine, fuel cells mounted in the trunk etc...

well this one guy said that years ago he drove a For Edsel and this was after leaded fuel was gone and his grandfather told him to put ATF in with the gas as a substitute (and did it himself!) so this guy did it. But people would scream at him like he was insane as they watched him dump this stuff in the tank.

Apparently it would lubricate the valves as the lead once did?

Any merit to this? I was shocked as I read it. He claims the car gave him many many trouble-free miles, same for grandpa's cars.

I'd never do this, I'd figure the car would smoke blue like a two-stoke engine <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> not really good-looking!

I just get the lead substitute myself, for peace of mind. lets not ignite anothr debate about this all im saying is its available and cheap, no need to dump ATF in your gas!

So what'ya think?

Paul

[Rusty_OToole]

I've thought of using a little smokeless 2 stroke oil as an upper cylinder and valve lube. But not tranny fluid.

I have heard pouring tranny fluid down the carb will clean out carbon but am dubious about that too. Water works so much better for engine cleaning. For that matter it works better to control ping and prevent valve burning too.

[Mike Cullen]

If I was to add anything to the fuel for "valve lubrication" it would be Marvel Mystery Oil. Many guys with antique Harleys use it as a fuel additive for valve guide lubrication. I'd still use lead substitute in an antique car without hardened exhaust seats.

Transmission fluid has all kinds of additives, friction modifiers, etc for the organic parts in a transmission, I don't think I'd want any of that running through my fuel system, and through the engine. Who knows what kind of crud would build up after a while.

There are always anecdotal stories about grandpa running a "pint of moonshine and a cup of cod liver oil" (or whatever) in his old Brand X car and going 800K miles getting 10 MPG more than anybody else with that type of car, and then tearing it down and there wasn't any wear, in fact the rings had barely seated! everything was tight so they put the motor in some yahoo's stock car and won the qualifying race for Daytona but were disqualified because of the illegal fuel mix. I hear two or three stories like that every year, especially at car shows!

You can still find tetraethyl lead to add to fuel for the octane boost and valve protection, of course it's "for off road use only" AVGAS and certain racing fuels contain lead, if you want to go through the hassle of mixing.

As little as we drive our old cars, a bottle of lead substitute every other tank or so will be fine. It will take a lot of miles to start having trouble due to unleaded gas causing valve guide and seat problems.

[Guest ZondaC12]

THATS the other thing i usually put in--Marvel Mystery Oil. somehow forgot about it! love that stuff!

[Dan Marx]

Well folks, I have been using trans fluid in my old ford tractors for many years. Add one quart for each fill up of gas. Of course it was recommended by my father-in-law who is quite long in the tooth. The old 8N ford tractors are running better than him. Hmm, I wonder if a quart would help him???!!!

[R Walling]

DMarx , In referance to your father in law, I think that a fifth

would be better than a quart.

[Bhigdog]

Some of the guys driving diesel pickups do it.

[joe_padavano]

Just keep in mind that there's a big difference between a Ford 8N tractor (or a pre-emissions auto) and a car with an O2 sensor and catalytic converter. I can't imagine that oil in the fuel would be good for either the sensor or the cat.

[Mike Cullen]

I had an 8N for a long time. What a great little tractor! It would run on almost anything you dumped into the tank, I used it to get rid of stale fuel, old oil-mixed 2 cycle gas, even 50/50 fuel oil and gas mix (parts wash). I worked it lightly farming, but really hard plowing snow and dragging logs. The guy I sold it to in 2002 is still using it.

[R W Burgess]

Doesn't hurt mine any. She blows out a belch full of blue smoke every morning when I start her up. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Probably should replace those valve guide seals huh? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wayne

[Guest windjamer]

I hate to open a can of worms,but dosnt anybody remember amoco gas??It was unleaded at least fifty years ago, I dont think it ruined any engines. Never heard of anybody sueing the co. for burnt valves. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[rocketraider]

Amoco premium (usually called "white gas" around here) still had the octane at that time. A high octane fuel charge burns cooler so you didn't get those annoying little detonation-causing hot spots and subsequent burned valves.

For some reason ATF and Mystery Oil have always looked and smelled a lot alike to me. I use MMO in all the old cars fuel, but I notice I get a film on the back bumper near the tailpipe if I dose it according to the bottle directions. I generally go 1/2 to 2/3 the recommended dosage.

Cad/Olds dealer here used to dump a quart of ATF in the crankcase of a Cadillac or Olds engine with noisy lifters. If that didn't quiet it down then they'd do a lifter job. ATF is a pretty high-detergent oil and being thin could get into and flush things out of places.

[Mike Cullen]

Didn't they use a phosphorus additive rather than lead? same effect, different substance. Phosphorus can't be used in the formula for "unleaded" gas now either. We still have Amoco gas here, they merged with BP I think.

[Rusty_OToole]

Adding tranny fluid or other oil substance will lower the octane of your gas, which is just the ticket for an old low compression long stroke engine like a Ford tractor.

Next time try adding one part of kerosene to 6 or 7 parts gas. I have heard owners of cars and motorcycles from the 20s do this. They report easier starting, smoother cooler running,and better performance. Today's gas doesn't have the "heavy ends" the old long stroke engines need to develop full power and performance.

[Guest windjamer]

Back in the 50s. amoco was white gas. It also was just about the only thing you could burn in a coleman stove or lantern outher that coleman fuel as it didnt plug the nozel. WE used to flush an engene with 3 qts. 10wt. oil and one qt tranny fluid. Start it up let it idle for 5-10 min. then shut it down and drain it.Dont think I would recomend that today. WE did add an once or two of light oil to the gas tank once in a while to lube the top end. Dont recomend that eather today. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Rusty_OToole]

Does anybody remember what kind of gas had the "Boron" instead of lead? This was in the 50s.

[Guest ZondaC12]

just to make it clear i wasnt asking if I should do that in MY car...

however does anyone think I ought to do any of these things, like "1 part kerosene to 6 or 7 parts gasoline"

like i said i use a lead substitute i get from walmart or something. the thing starts up and runs beaufitully (well in my subjective opinion anyway) and i do want this thing to run as LONG as possible before i gotta rebuild it, doesnt burn any oil, good compression, i want to see how long she'll tick! would any of these things be something i really ought to do to achieve this?

ive heard "better power" and stuff like that, is it worth it? im actually not sure how accessible kerosene is in my area! though i could do the ATF, thats the exact opposite. obviously at your local auto parts store.

OH! heh, havent heard this mentioned yet, how much ATF should i dump it (per...full tank i guess--the car has an 18 gal tank)

[Rusty_OToole]

The kerosene is for very old cars with very low compression, like 5:1. Cars from the teens and 20s with low compression and long stroke motors.

Gas was low in quality then and contained a lot of kerosene to start with.

For a car made before 1955 or after 1970 I wouldn't worry about the lead issue. But if you want to be all Felix Unger about it, try some Marvel Mystery Oil, ReDex, Bardahl or the like.

[Joe Block]

Cars that old and in the teens had a trimming advance on the steering wheel, to adjust the time depending upon what kind of fuel you could find from whale oil to kerosene to gasoline.

[mlander]

Partial quote from windjammer;

I hate to open a can of worms, but doesn?t anybody remember Amoco gas?

It was unleaded at least fifty years ago; I don?t think it ruined any engines.

I never heard of anybody suing the company for burnt valves.

Doesn?t anyone remember Sunoco Blue? It was colored BLUE to distinguish

it from RED leaded fuel. Tetraethyl lead was colored [color:"red"] RED to tell everyone it was

[color:"red"] poison . It was made for years just as you state, if Sunoco could be made

without Tetraethyl lead why couldn?t other refineries do it? You don?t think perhaps

that money had something to do with it. Do you believe that a lot of people who had

Buick?s didn?t burn Sunoco Blue?

When Aviation fuel got to be 100 Octane (PN) they weren?t allowed to use Tetraethyl Lead

in large quantities as in automobile gasoline due to its fouling tendencies of the sparkplugs,

this was back in the 1930s and up to the time that turbojets took over around 1955.

That front line running up the front right side of the Buick block going into the cylinder

head isn?t there for show it?s there for a purpose and that is to oil the valve

mechanism. If you want clean oil up there make sure the line has an oil filter on it

and that you change at every regular oil change.

One of the things that Tetraethyl Lead did was to foul sparkplugs and the exhaust

valves became fouled up with its residue. Sparkplugs now last 75,000 miles

without lead in the gas, guess why.

M.L. Anderson

[R W Burgess]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"> Sparkplugs now last 75,000 miles without lead in the gas, guess why.

</span> </div></div>

Hotter Spark?

W.

[ted sweet]

no lead deposits on the plugs.

[The Old Guy]

Plugs last longer than that ! I have 150,000 miles on my 91 Park Avenue and it still has the original plugs in it. I am afraid to change them now as it will probably strip the threads.

I found that running 5 gallons of kerosene with 15 gallons of gas in my 32 Buick 90 series worked very well. It helped trmendously in correcting a tendency to vapor lock. I hauled a 17 foot 1935 travel trailer all over the country back in the 70s, and going across the desert I don't think I could have done it on straight gasoline

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Zondac, first let me tell you I think it is great a young guy has such a strong interest in a pre-war car, keeping it in nice, stock condition- it is a beauty to say the least. Enjoy it. My guess is you are not trying to correct anything, just assist the engine in lasting as long as possible. Sometimes it is hard to resist the urge to do something when you may not need to. I know lots of Model A guys running lead substitute that don't realize there was no lead in that era, and forward including yours. I am really not sold on how effective lead is in lubricating valves from this era as they were not initially designed for that, although the Marvel is designed for just that, and is still available.

Realistically, in today's improved roads (less dust, etc.) and improved oils you should be fine. If anything I would drop in a little of the Marvel when you need to top off your oil, and change it a few hundred miles later. I would stay away from any additives designed to fix what is not broken. Sometimes you can create trouble trying to free up deposits that if left alone will just sit there 'till the eventual rebuild, that break loose and cause trouble. The absolute best preventive work you can do for your engine is frequent oil changes, and if available, add a filter to it.

[Guest ZondaC12]

thanks for the advice!

i noticed this past summer after a few hundred miles the oil darkened. thats usually when ive changed it. its not like my 87 cougar, the daily driver, which sits lower to the ground, has two different drain plugs, because the oil pan dips down behind and ahead of the front cross member, and has an oil filter.

the buick--uncap the drain, let it go into the pan, cap it, and pour in the new stuff! it sits a lot higher so i can lay down undeneath it and have plenty of elbow room. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

granted, these are the first few hundred miles its seen in 25 years so id imagine there was probably still some gunk left in some areas that might darken it quicker? i also didnt pay close enough attention to the mileage, i just changed it when it started looking dark (but im sure that was never after more than 400 miles)

ill keep better track next year. but again, 400 miles versus the typical 3000 for newer cars, is no hassle, due to the extreme ease of changing the buick's oil! and i could get one of those canister filters but it only helps the valvetrain! to me thats a little pointless. bottom end is where it counts!

and on that point about lack of lead in my car's era--i have read that before and was shocked when i did! a very interesting point. ill stick with the marvel mystery. the one thing i literally said to myself when i first bought some is "well lets see look at that. says its been around since 1923, and thats well before my car so it should be fine!" <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> haha

and thanks for the kind words, too! i truly appreciate it. fortunately i got plenty of time until ill have the funds to restore it, because i need to decide how far to go. theres just too much good paint on that body, its funny but id feel it would be wasteful and unethical to strip the WHOLE thing down and redo it. besides, thats lacquer paint and im hearing the "greenies" dont like it and are slowly doing their best to take it away so old cars cant have the same paint they originally had! hey, its all part of it. thats the original paint, its just not the same if its got modern clearcoated/enamel/whatever new stuff is made of <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

also the 87 20th anniversary cougar is in beautiful shape, it looks new, especially for 118000 miles! it was also dads, and that is also being kept original and i will have that until i die too.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I would not worry too much about the darkened oil, and if you are changing that frequently you don't need to worry about moisture getting in there or the lack of a filter. Those Buicks were well built, IMO.

Glad to hear you are also maintaining the car in it's current state. I have loved pre-war since I was a teen, although in the 70s - 80s the emphasis was on restoration. Regularly driven cars, or originals with some patina did not command the respect they do now. I appreciate a 100 point car, but also appreciate keeping a clean original or older restoration and enjoying it also.

Good luck with both vehicles!

[Rusty_OToole]

It's not all or nothing. You can and should touch up your paint to keep off rust. A good bodyman can match and blend paint.

The same approach works for other things too. Cover your seats with seat covers. I recently bought a 51 DeSoto that has had seat covers on since new and the upholstery underneath is like new. The seat covers are worn and splitting but the original upholstery is perfect. This is at least the second set of seat covers the car has had, next summer it will be getting its third set.

Same with engines etc. Regular maintenance plus occasional repairs will keep your original engine going a long, long time without a complete rebuild.

Take care of the car, wax it, keep it full of fresh oil, grease, antifreeze, brake fluid etc. and it could well live to the age of 100 without a full restoration.

[mlander]

I found this article from Australia about Valve Seat Recession, its long but may help some to understand the problem;

http://www.unep.org/pcfv/Documents/VSR-FinalDraft.pdf

M.L.Anderson

[Pontiac59]

My understanding is if an engine has 75,000 miles or more on it and alwaya ran with leaded gas, it will have enough lead in it to last the remaining servicable life without using leaded gas. But if you take that engine apart and do a valve job and run it without, it will chew up the seats like nothing.