Fuel Injection

[NTX5467]

Admiring the great lines is one reason you wax the car a lot in the off-season.  Feeling the magnificance as you also look for spots missed or which need more work.  Static artwork.  Inside and out.

 

NTX5467

Edited April 17 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Deadpurpledog]

Nothing like them.  Beautiful from every angle.

[60FlatTop]

It is the polishing of the body shape I find most satisfying. The razor edge tops of the '64 Riviera are like nothing else. #34's of my garage floor has vinyl flooring for peaceful warm afternoons of barefoot polishing. One quarter left for "hard" work may get a cheap sheet of expendable  vinyl for oil changes and brake jobs soon.

 

I guess I'd call that retirement.

[NTX5467]

"Barefoot polishing"??  (Gasp!!)  No flip-flops which are "garage only"?

[XframeFX]

On 4/16/2024 at 3:16 PM, LarryDolphins said:

Do you happen to know any Qjet experts in the Los Angeles area ?

Carburetor Exchange and Carburetor Center are now one and the same in the LA area?

 

Carburetor Exchange quoted an in-stock 1966 Q-Jet, a 7041309 I think for <$500 a few years back. Last August, "DowndraftDan" at Carburetor Center quoted $950 +$500 for a Core I do not have. So, $1450! That amount will take me well into an FI swap.

https://www.carburetorcenter.com/product-page/1966-buick-rochester-quadrajet-carburetor-remanufactured

[65VerdeGS]

Ever since I've had my '65 Gran Sport (41 years now) it has been a bit 'balky' to start after having been left sitting for anything over two weeks.  This behavior remained after I had the engine and both Carter carbs rebuilt in 2005.  The car is 100% stock.  I have to pump the gas several times to get enough fuel up into the carb(s) to start the car.

 

Is this something to do with the fuel evaporating from the float bowl?  Or to do with today's ethanol blended gas?  Would the car have had this problem when new?

[tenugent]

5 hours ago, 65VerdeGS said:

Ever since I've had my '65 Gran Sport (41 years now) it has been a bit 'balky' to start after having been left sitting for anything over two weeks.  This behavior remained after I had the engine and both Carter carbs rebuilt in 2005.  The car is 100% stock.  I have to pump the gas several times to get enough fuel up into the carb(s) to start the car.

 

Is this something to do with the fuel evaporating from the float bowl?  Or to do with today's ethanol blended gas?  Would the car have had this problem when new?

You may look into a electric fuel pump with a on and off switch.I have one I like so I can turn the motor over to get oil pumping through the motor so I dont get a dry start.As Tom T said I'd rather change a starter than a motor.

[NTX5467]

9 hours ago, 65VerdeGS said:

Is this something to do with the fuel evaporating from the float bowl?  Or to do with today's ethanol blended gas?  Would the car have had this problem when new?

That hot soak re-start issue would have depended on where it happened.  Phoenix in the summer, probably.  Phoenix in the winter, probably not.  Even with the gas the car was designed for, when it was a "used car" or over 1 year old.  Pumping the accel pedal just put fuel into the intake manifold, not "gas to the carbs".

 

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

12 hours ago, XframeFX said:

Carburetor Exchange and Carburetor Center are now one and the same in the LA area?

 

Carburetor Exchange quoted an in-stock 1966 Q-Jet, a 7041309 I think for <$500 a few years back. Last August, "DowndraftDan" at Carburetor Center quoted $950 +$500 for a Core I do not have. So, $1450! That amount will take me well into an FI swap.

https://www.carburetorcenter.com/product-page/1966-buick-rochester-quadrajet-carburetor-remanufactured

I know that carb kit prices have increased a bit, depending upon the source and quality thereof.  I can understand an increase in labor rates, to an extent.  I can understand environmental issues with cleaning fluids.  For THIS price, I would expect above perfection.  Even a full re-cast with all design issues fixed and finessed beyond perfection.  Even a stainless steel sleeved power valve bore and thick secondary air valve cam!  Neither of which are mentioned!

 

QJets have always been more expensive to rebuild than an AFB, but that price can get close to TWO NEW AFBs.  Wonder what he pays his employees, to justify those prices?

 

NTX5467

 

NTX5467

[telriv]

Even when new IF they sat for awhile, a week or more, you would have to crank them for awhile. 

Way back when they were a newer car & more than likely a daily driver so you didn't run into these problems.

AGAIN,  I would rather crank it over for awhile to get oil flowing RATHER than a dry start.

Todays fuel with alcohol evaporates even faster with the normal heat of the engine.

The cure install an electric fuel pump or fuel injection.

Now we're back to the dry start situation.

Which would you rather have???

 

Tom T.

[dr914]

fuel injection, disc brakes, quick ratio steering, and bilstein shocks are certainly the way to go if one wants to do worthwhile modifications for better driving and performance and handling

[60FlatTop]

I looked at that carburetor re-manufacture service that was $450 after deducting the core charge.

 

Kits are about $50 on the low end. That leaves $400 in the rest of the job. Those carbs did not come with throttle shaft bushings that I know of. That is some machining there plus fabrication of the bushes. A test run on an engine to set it up is added labor. Usually something like a small displacement Chevy small block is used.

 

General shop rates around here are about $175 and it is hard to get 100% billable time. The minimum income for an employee to rent a single apartment around here, backwoods New York State, not city, is $50,000 per year. And the rental people know who can't make the rate.

 

I see it as a reasonable deal. I would never even consider providing the service. Not enough margin and the expectation of the customer would likely be that bolting that carb on would cure all their ills. I wouldn't touch any implication like that. That is the kind of deal you recommend to the worst playing, most annoying person you have tried to work for. "Here, buy a carb from these guys. They look good. And it has a guaranty!"

[60FlatTop]

17 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

"Barefoot polishing"??  (Gasp!!)  No flip-flops which are "garage only"?

I have never been one for hard or dirty work. And the climate doesn't breed crawly things.

[telriv]

Even when new IF they sat for awhile, a week or more, you would have to crank them for awhile. 

Way back when they were a newer car & more than likely a daily driver so you didn't run into these problems.

AGAIN,  I would rather crank it over for awhile to get oil flowing RATHER than a dry start.

Todays fuel with alcohol evaporates even faster with the normal heat of the engine.

 

Tom T.

[telriv]

On EVERY carb. I rebuild they ALL go through a process.

Reason many of my re-builds seem to be costly.

Re-bushed throttle shafts IF NEC.

In MANY cases only the primary shafts need to be re-bushed.

Seldom the secondary's, BUT sometimes also.

Seized up  throttle shafts, etc.

Rusted linkage beyond recognition.

Water intrusion corroding internally.

EVERYONE is installed on a running/driving '64 Riv. I have & use for this process.

DON'T need a problem with an overseas carb. as shipping back & forth can get to be quite costly.

Ask those I've done rebuilds for & ask them/those questions & whether satisfied or not & their impressions.

 

Tom T.

[carbking]

Interesting comments about the price of that Q-Jet.

 

I have been out of carburetor restoration now for 12 years, so I have no dog in this hunt.

 

We did cosmetic and mechanical restoration to each carburetor. Early on, I tried doing rebuilding, and the carbs looked so bad that I ended up restoring about half a dozen that I had quoted rebuilding, and shipped at the quoted price. But I wasn't ashamed at the way the carbs looked.

 

The blurb as posted does not state all of the work that was done, and the linkage does not look like it has been electroplated (perhaps it has).

 

12 years ago, once we had totally disassembled the carb, and cleaned the castings, and useable linkage pieces; these would be sent to a metal laundry company to do the zinc chromate conversion on the castings, and the yellow zinc electroplate on those steel items requiring yellow zinc, black oxide on those items requiring black oxide, and Teflon coating on the few linkages that required this coating. Average cost to us, 12 years ago, was $250./carburetor.

 

Add to this the cost of a kit (12 years ago, about $80. for a good Q-Jet kit with jets, springs, secondary cam, etc.), a set of primary bushings (about $10 then), the machine time to install the bushings (not going to add the price of the milling machine or the cost of fabricating the fixture) roughly 1 hour machine shop time ($125./hour), roughly 2 hours shop time disassembly ($75./hour), roughly 2 hours shop time assembly and adjustment ($75./hour). Figure 95 percent of Q-Jets with 60k miles are going to require primary bushing.

 

Now, we have to consider incorrect metering rods (many are NLA and must be fabricated), and hangers ($15.), a brass float, a new choke pull-off (some of these can exceed $100. if you can find one). Anyone ever tried fabrication a metering rod on a lathe?

 

Put all that together and adjust for 12 years of inflation, and that $950. doesn't look too bad IF the carburetor is being restored.

 

AFB's are considerably cheaper, as Carter didn't use a foam float that failed as often as a politician tells a falsehood  ; the Carter brass floats are generally reuseable, and most do not have a choke pull-off.  The major problem with the floats in the AFB was a previous "rebuilder" "one size fits all" attitude. Carter used at least 5 different floats in various AFB's, and they are different for a reason. Also, the AFB's only required body recoloring on the choke housing and pump jet housing.

 

I believe Tom does about the same.

 

Quality work costs premium money.

 

Jon

Edited April 18 by carbking (see edit history)

[XframeFX]

On 4/17/2024 at 10:20 PM, 65VerdeGS said:

I have to pump the gas several times to get enough fuel up into the carb(s) to start the car.

Alex, here in Western Canada, Princess Auto in the "Farming" Section has at least two Electric fuel Pumps to choose from. If using just to prime on start, make sure it's the type that flows thru when off which most do.

Everyone should install a 2-Pole Oil Pressure switch in the Block's 1/8" NPT Oil Port. The 1st Pole switches to ground like a conventional switch. The 2nd Pole are dry contacts for if you want to switch an electric fuel pump, electric choke or in my case, a relay to power a sub-4-circuit fuse block. So, I have three 12V paths 1) Start 2) Accessory/Ignition and 3) Run/Ignition

https://www.partsking.ca/Product/BLU//PS133

 

 

 

On 4/18/2024 at 9:08 AM, dr914 said:

fuel injection, disc brakes, quick ratio steering, and bilstein shocks are certainly the way to go if one wants to do worthwhile modifications for better driving and performance and handling

Except for disc brakes, this was my plan, especially bolt-in Bilstein Shocks. Add to that for those of us with '63s: Dynaflow to an OD or at least a more responsive transmission. I've done none of that. Too busy troubleshooting the Nailhead. Soft & Spongey Motor Mounts on my list too.

Edited April 21 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[jframe]

I can attest to Tom T's work on carbs. He did a correct AFB for my '65 some years ago, and it's still running strong, and looked great out of the box to boot.

[60FlatTop]

Maintaining a collector car: "Just a wave of the hand and another ten minute job".

[XframeFX]

14 hours ago, jframe said:

He did a correct AFB for my '65 some years ago, and it's still running strong, and looked great out of the box to boot.

My retired AFB rebuilder did a "Quick-and-Dirty" on my AFB in his trailer park garage for $400.

Should've DIY in hindsight.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20 by XframeFX (see edit history)

[70rivme]

@Deadpurpledog, I love the fact that you injected your '67. You did what a lot of people think about including myself. What other kind of mods had to be or were done to your Riv to accomplish this? 

[Deadpurpledog]

Thanks 70rivme!  Can’t take much credit.  Spent a lot of time and money trying to get the carb to run reasonably while stopping the fuel smell.  Also, was considering switching ignitions.  As I’m about to explain, and as many more here like EmTee already know, I don’t know squat about the mechanical side of cars.  Maybe less.  
 

Tony, with Carbuerators and More said he could fix the problems or, for another $1,800, he could fix all the issues permanently and my Riviera would run a whole lot better.  I opted for Door #2.  Believe the conversion included ignition, fuel pump, all new lines, risers for my air cleaner to fit and maybe more.

 

Driving it for a few weeks with computer attached to learn how I drive.  Will return soon to have it calibrated to match how I drive.

 

sorry I can’t tell,u more.  Surely many here will be able to tell you more.

[Deadpurpledog]

On 4/13/2024 at 8:01 AM, joe_padavano said:

^^^THIS! I remain amazed that people who can't figure out how to rebuild and tune a simple carb think that a far more complex (and significantly less transparent) aftermarket throttle body fuel injection system will be easier for them. I'm sure it works great out of the box. How will it be a year or two from now when the injectors get gummed up with deposits from crappy fuel and the unobtanium gaskets dry out? What happens when the electrical connections start to corrode and you have to chase down those intermittent problems? Sorry, but no aftermarket system has even a fraction of the engineering and testing that went into OEM hardware, especially a one-size-fits-none aftermarket EFI system.

Wow!  What has made you so completely negative about FI, Joe?  Due to desert heat, found I needed insulated fuel lines.  Who knows what will happen years from now?  So far, runs amazingly.

[Deadpurpledog]

On 4/20/2024 at 6:26 AM, 70rivme said:

@Deadpurpledog, I love the fact that you injected your '67. You did what a lot of people think about including myself. What other kind of mods had to be or were done to your Riv to accomplish this? 

Had to add insulated fuel lines due to heat here and fuel pump was moved.  Otherwise pretty much plug and play.

[XframeFX]

An edit to my negativity 5 months ago on this post (page-1):

I am no longer wishing for a Plug & Play widget that installs in 1-hour to make enjoyable motorvation for my Riviera. This includes Throttle Body FI which might still be an improvement over its resolved state.

With Nailhead symptoms gone or Normal, I actually enjoy driving my Riviera now.😊

[joe_padavano]

12 hours ago, Deadpurpledog said:

Wow!  What has made you so completely negative about FI, Joe?  Due to desert heat, found I needed insulated fuel lines.  Who knows what will happen years from now?  So far, runs amazingly.

I'm not "completely negative about FI". Read what I wrote again, not what you want it to say. The factory performs a tremendous amount of engineering and testing on their units. Every single configuration is calibrated for the specific application (just as were carburetors, by the way). There is NO WAY that any aftermarket company can afford to invest a fraction of that effort into an aftermarket unit, especially when it's a generic system designed for multiple applications. Don't kid yourself otherwise. And again, if someone can't get a carb to run right, I find it highly unlikely that they can get a one-size-fits-none aftermarket EFI to run right. On the other hand, I'm completely sure that a brand new unit right out of the box will run better than the long-neglected carb that they are replacing, so sure, it's "better". The same can be said for the popularity of Edelbrock aftermarket carbs as well. And I'll also note that I have frequently pointed out the same factory engineering vs aftermarket issue with disc brake "upgrades" as well.

[Deadpurpledog]

Oh my.  Joe, I did read what you said. . .both the original note and this one.  I completely understand your POV and do not dispute original engineering was the best they could do 60 years ago.  Thanks for your time and interest.

[carbking]

To add to Joe's comment about aftermarket carburetors:

 

When CARTER was still making the AFB, Carter had a chart of suggested STARTING POINT carburetors for most V-8 installations. This chart had applications for both "street" and "race", but again, these were "starting points" based on flow capability, NOT as a "plug and play".

 

A typical sale would have been a Carburetor, a "strip kit" (a number of different jets, and metering rods of different calibrations with a physical profile to fit the carburetor being sold), and a "blister-pak" spring kit.

 

Carter also had available other tuning parts not contained in either the strip kit or the spring kit.

 

As to "60 year old engineering"? It was pretty doggone good, especially if the accountants would allow the engineers to use their work in production!

 

Jon

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, carbking said:

To add to Joe's comment about aftermarket carburetors:

 

When CARTER was still making the AFB, Carter had a chart of suggested STARTING POINT carburetors for most V-8 installations. This chart had applications for both "street" and "race", but again, these were "starting points" based on flow capability, NOT as a "plug and play".

 

A typical sale would have been a Carburetor, a "strip kit" (a number of different jets, and metering rods of different calibrations with a physical profile to fit the carburetor being sold), and a "blister-pak" spring kit.

 

Carter also had available other tuning parts not contained in either the strip kit or the spring kit.

 

As to "60 year old engineering"? It was pretty doggone good, especially if the accountants would allow the engineers to use their work in production!

 

Jon

Jon, in fairness to the E-brock clones, I will say that they also come with a fairly detailed manual that includes exactly that same tuning information, including a number of charts that detail how to adjust the jetting for rich and lean conditions at specific operating points (sample page attached). I used this info to dial in the E-brock carb on my 1962 Olds with the 215. You can also still buy a version of the Strip Kit, though I still have a couple of those from the 1980s that I used (yes, all the parts interchange). The problem is that 99% of the people who buy an E-brock carb never even look at that tuning manual, which is why I am skeptical that they can get the aftermarket EFI dialed in either.

 

[carbking]

Joe - it is the "Carter also had available other tuning parts not contained in either the strip kit or the spring kit." that can make a huge difference.

 

Oh, and reading is over-rated  Perhaps someone will do a searchable video of the e-manual  

 

Or maybe "Alexa, how do I set up this EFI"

 

Jon

[NTX5467]

In the first Rochester carb book (HP Books), there was a tuning orientation which involved "metering area" of the primaries at various vac levels (and related steps on the metering rod).  An interesting take on things that seemed to yield very good results.  Back then, it was usually "one size up on the jets" and such.  

 

BUT this approach took calculations, a vac gauge, a stop watch, and "road" to do it.  PLUS the afternoon or so of tuning changes.  That section of the book detailed what they did to an emissions-controlled K-5 Blazer 350 4bbl to get it to both run better (NOT necessarily "richer"!) with better throttle response, fuel economy, and lower emissions.  I suspect that in more recent times, to get to a suitable "road", would take over an hour to get there, as population areas have expanded a good bit since then.  Not sure a chassis dyno would be a suitable substitute, either.

 

In a "fixed jet" carb, these calculations would be easier.  In a "metering rod" carb, more complicated as the resulting metering area of the "jet" would be the size of the physical jet minus the size of the particular metering rod step diameter.  Then how that changed with the phasing of the metering rod steps to the vac levels.

 

With the huge number of metering rods/jets/power valve springs available for a QJet, any level of tuning is very possible.  But the array of similar items for Carters and Edelbrocks can do similar.  Using the same "metering area" orientation.

 

I had seen the "User's Manual" for the earlier Edelbrock AFBs and was amazed at how much detail it went into.  I later found a version online and downloaded it for consideration.  Printed it off, too.  In some ways, it paralleled the Rochester Book's methods.  Perhaps a bit less tedious?

 

Hopeful end results will include:  less throttle input, faster acceleration, better fuel economy, and resultant fewer exhaust emissions in the mix, too.  Can't dismiss ignition activities or automatic trans part-throttle upshift speeds, either.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[XframeFX]

6 hours ago, carbking said:

As to "60 year old engineering"? It was pretty doggone good, especially if the accountants would allow the engineers to use their work in production!

Mechanical Fuel Pumps are part of the induction system as well.

Accountants must've twisted some arms to lower costs with the emergence of crimped style Unitac pumps starting as early as the late 60's.

I've been critical of replacements and have been searching for OE AC4706 "rebuildable" pumps for our Nailheads. Only, not impressed with any of the rebuild kits.

 

Now jump to replacements for same vintage Chev. Way more choices of course and same situation for rebuild kits for my original decrepit AC4460. Diaphragms and check valves inferior to OE.

 

New Mech. Fuel Pump choices for Chev application:

1) AC4460 exact Clones Made-in-China

2) Crimped style Unitac replacements

3) Hi Perf/Hi Flow/Hi RPM Speed Shop Pumps where the Edelbrock Units are Made-in-USA. They are mostly chromed die castings assembled with screws but I doubt rebuildable. They are not AC clones.

 

Amazing on Forum complaints regarding country of origin for #1. If only we had this choice for Buick!  A copy of brilliant 50s/60s engineering still available today. Except for country of manufacture, no corners cut!

 

I will order a 4460 clone from Rockauto. I will most likely have to disassemble to "clock" dual NPT Ports to the correct position. So, will assess soft components inside.

 

 

[carbking]

Engines have a calibration curve consistant with the type of engine. Modifications to the engine (compression, cam overlap/lift, timing, etc.) will alter the original curve.

 

Anyone can buy a "tuning kit" (jets and rods), and at least have the parts to maybe make the carburetor better. And the tuning manual is a helpful item! 

 

But starting with an aftermarket carburetor, or even the incorrect O.E. carburetor is probably going to have incorrect air bleeds, air bypasses, and restrictors necessary to really fine tune a carburetor. I have yet to see a kit containing these parts. The average enthusiast does not have a jewelers lathe in order to fabricate the correct calibrations; nor the special tooling necessary to remove/replace these items. These would primarily be on the primary side of a four-barrel.

 

Lots of folks have hesitations when the secondary side of the four-barrel is engaged. Carter controlled the timing of the secondary opening by the use of a weighted air-valve on the AFB. The air valve had two fixed calibrations (the angle of attack of the valve blades, and the mass, or weight of the weights). Anyone that believes that a four-barrel designed for a Chevrolet will work the secondaries correctly on a Buick or Pontiac probably believes in the tooth fairy!

 

As Carter made O.E. AFB's, they had a really good handle on which air valve to substitute for the original in one of their aftermarket AFB's, and these air valves were available.

 

The Carter TQ (thermoquad) and the Rochester Q-Jet (quadrajet) controlled the timing of the opening of the air valve with an adjustable spring. Anyone believing that this form of air valve can be perfectly adjusted by adjusting the air valve probably believes in both the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny. While adjusting the spring can normally get one close; a more precise method is to get as close as possible with the spring adjustment, and then modify the vacuum orifice in the choke pull off.

 

Thus while replacing an original carburetor with an aftermarket version MAY be necessary for additional air flow, the aftermarket out of the box is probably NOT going to perform as well as a stock original in good condition. As Joe mentioned, replacing an original that needs MAJOR machine work with either a new aftermarket carb or a new EFI is probably going to be an improvement over the worn-out original; it just might not work as well as bringing the original back to specifications.

 

Jon

[Deadpurpledog]

You’re probably right. . .seems you’re an expert.  Unfortunately, have had little luck finding a carb expert in Las Vegas.  After spending a few thousands and getting no where, FI seemed like the best option for me. . . .if, perhaps, not the perfect option.

[60FlatTop]

20 hours ago, carbking said:

the aftermarket out of the box is probably NOT going to perform as well as a stock original in good condition.

This goes back to my old story about spending a day with Tom Toal, the Rochester Products engineer closely involved in the design of the Quadrajet. In his home garage was a shelf with 10 or 12 "gold" painted carburetors. They were the factory carbs sent out to each division and field tested for calibration on specific engines. Once approved the ideal one was painted gold and sent back as the production spec. They varied with application.

 

Tom told me there were too many real world variables to consider carburetion as a science. It had to be taken as an art. He admitted that I was pretty good with carburetors and that bit of extra insight has helped me a lot over the years. Today I have to chuckle at times when I watch upstream O2 sensors at work. "That's art in action. It sure ain't science."

 

I always had an idea that the 4MV was designed because the 4GC wouldn't fit under the low hood of the Toranado.

[carbking]

Bernie - I personally believe it is a combination of the two.

 

Based on existing data (CID, RPM, vacuum, vehicle mass, transmission type, etc.) the STARTING POINT to pick a carburetor (probably also an EFI) is a science. Then the "art" takes over for fine-tuning.

 

The folks that ignore the science have no chance with the art.

 

Jon

[EmTee]

21 hours ago, carbking said:

Then the "art" takes over for fine-tuning.

Or, just 'brute-force' it empirically with a microprocessor...

[XframeFX]

On 9/30/2024 at 8:15 AM, carbking said:

I personally believe it is a combination of the two.

That is Art and Science.

 

Would troubleshooting be the science part?

 

It took me a while to realize most of my symptoms were while idling. I could have it in PARK, get out, walk around, raise the hood and measure vacuum, check timing. This is on the carburetor's Idle Circuit. How complicated could that be?

 

Driving, I could not walk around and check the tailpipes for water, smell and raise the hood.

Except for fuel consumption, my Riviera drove fine.

If I had instrumented my Nailhead with a data logger, indications would be all good.

An aftermarket throttlebody FI would have an App displaying realtime data, trend data, like a data logger. Nice!

 

A 4BBL Carburetor has 3 circuits, Idle, Primary, Secondary.

 

Again, how complicated could an Idle circuit be? The original AFB was not my problem.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 05:16 AM by XframeFX (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

"Things" can get very complicated if one does not know what they are seeing and how it works.

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

"Things" can get very complicated if one does not know what they are seeing and how it works.

 

NTX5467

When one knows too much, best example is the Rochester Products engineering group, things can get way out of hand like the 1986 Cadillac F. I. In that instance computerization offered the opportunity to measure so many variables. The group that designed it even scared themself.

 

Cynicism appears to be a genetic trait of mine, so a little tickle for those who understand fuel injection efficiency: think about why there are downstream O2 sensors.