60FlatTop Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 On 10/16/2023 at 12:18 PM, old-tank said: .needs total disassembly, tanked then inspected, total rebuild...up tp 2 months. If the shop is open 10 hours a day 6 days a week that gives them about a 500 working hour window for the job. Sometimes you can find an old tub for your own soaking. I have seen them behind houses in the city. If the grass is not matted down they might even let you borrow one. Should you decide to risk the two months and the memory issues just give me a call if you get suck on the reassembly. Between the two of us we'll get it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted October 21, 2023 Author Share Posted October 21, 2023 Removed the windage tray and there is similar material starting at the front. I am guessing front cam bearing. Putting it back together so I can move it around. Waiting for help and cooler weather. Maybe I will trailer it to Lamar's shop?? If I leave now I might have lots of help! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 6 hours ago, old-tank said: Removed the windage tray and there is similar material starting at the front. I am guessing front cam bearing. Putting it back together so I can move it around. Waiting for help and cooler weather. Maybe I will trailer it to Lamar's shop?? If I leave now I might have lots of help! Club project! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
195354 Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 Willy You keep bringing up cam bearings is this a problem area. Do you suspect it flaking out or the bearing rotating in the block. I have seen this on engines in the past block turns black at the problem area if they spin much. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 19 minutes ago, 195354 said: Willy You keep bringing up cam bearings is this a problem area. Do you suspect it flaking out or the bearing rotating in the block. I have seen this on engines in the past block turns black at the problem area if they spin much. Steve Answer to your question is pending tear down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 I put it together so I can move it around and drive a little bit locally. The 5-year-old Remflex flange gaskets where reused with no issues. I don't sell them but I'll recommend them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 (edited) Can a 1960 401 be dressed-up to look like your 322? Enough to "fool the judges"? Will the '60 401/DF bolt into the same place as your current powertrain? Just curious. If it was not for the torque tube, I might recommend an enhanced THM200-family OD automatic for better fuel economy on the annual trips, as the existing 3.64 rear axle with OD would make for lower cruising rpms. The "question" might be "Why the mains showed no wear but the cam bearings allegedly are "shedding"? Just some thoughts, NTX5467 Edited November 4, 2023 by NTX5467 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted November 5, 2023 Author Share Posted November 5, 2023 Later nailheads have different engine mounts, different trans mounts. Later dynaflows will not attach to the torque tube. Even if it were easy I would not install a step gear transmission. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted November 9, 2023 Share Posted November 9, 2023 Now Willie's feeling my pain with the low oil pressure. I really need to tear mine down too but, I'm too lazy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 29, 2023 Author Share Posted December 29, 2023 The tear down begins. 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted December 30, 2023 Share Posted December 30, 2023 "Casting assumption to the winds!" Disassembly is the worst of times and the best of times, but a far better thing to do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 30, 2023 Author Share Posted December 30, 2023 Progress, but no diagnosis yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted December 31, 2023 Share Posted December 31, 2023 Is the darkness on the piston crowns I see from "too rich" mixture? Happy New Year to All! NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 31, 2023 Author Share Posted December 31, 2023 Not really, it was just run briefly after a cold start before tear down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 31, 2023 Author Share Posted December 31, 2023 The front camshaft bearing had some of the flakes of material around it like I found in the pan and there is a wear pattern. The other camshaft bearings look like they had never been touched by the journals. Otherwise the camshaft and lifters were pristine. The timing chain had a little slop in it but otherwise it was serviceable. The intake ports on the cylinder heads had a buildup of black crusty material that was also on the back of the intake valves and stems. This has nothing to do with the low oil pressure but was probably caused by the repeated percolation on my hot trip this summer. Next I guess I'll punch the Pistons out and plastigauge the main and rod journal bearings. The cylinder still at hone marks after 20 years and 120,000 miles. Hopefully I can reuse the Pistons$$$$$and maybe the bearings$$$$ if they spec out okay. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 I have never worked on an engine like your doing now………I understand using pistons over with a light hone if all check out fine…….as for bearings, why not just replace everything? I’m guessing they are available, what is the cost? Same for the chain…….why toss in a used one? Are all hard parts readily available? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 At this point in time, the crank/rod bearings' condition is still "TBD". Although I suspect that could well be where the lowered oil pressure is coming from. Piston clearance and ring condition will not affect oil pressure, but the current condition of such is also still "TBD". For general insurance, I'd upgrade to a roller timing chain and just see how long things could go. My experience has been that a quality roller chain will last well past 400K miles with no problems. As a side note, the brand and viscosity of motor oil that was used in that motor from its last rebuild . . . there is a YouTube video of a very high-mileage Volvo engine teardown with that same brand of motor oil (maybe not the same viscosity, though) where the engine parts showed remarkably NO wear after many gazillion of miles accumulated on it. I'm not expecting anything less in this case. Certainly, I suspect the engine has held up (on this rebuild) better than it would have if circa-1960 motor oil had been used in it. Waiting for further updates from @Old-Tank . . . Happy New Year to ALL! NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 (edited) If the pistons are brought down to BDC you would be able to push down with hammer handle and hear a "thunk" if there's excessive clearance. A quick test that will disclose any glaring defect within the rod bearings Meant to say : Recently found out the hard way there are no .020 bearings for a 401 425. This may affect you also. Edited January 1 by gungeey (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 1 Author Share Posted January 1 14 hours ago, gungeey said: Recently found out the hard way there are no .020 bearings for a 401 425. This may affect you also. 20 years ago I had to have the crank ground to fit the available bearings... and it seems that the supply is no better now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 It seems like a shop that can pour babbit into a rod or a block could reuse your steel backs. I have never had to do it. But like my ex-brother in law used to say "They don't plant seeds to get them". Someone must have done that. Back about 20 years ago I had a Packard V8 rebuilt and I remember the main bearings being around $100 each and the rods weren't far behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 1 Author Share Posted January 1 (edited) Front main bearing lower shell, all the others are like that except for the rear main. Rod bearings show very little wear on both sides. I can't find a size stamping on those main bearing shells. I'll have to look at my notes but I think the crank has been turned on the main bearings at least 0.020" undersize. Edited January 6 by old-tank (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Does not look so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 2 hours ago, old-tank said: Front main bearing lower sheel, all the others are like that except for the rear main. Rod bearings show very little wear on both sides. I can't find a size stamping on those main bearing sheels. I'll have to look at my notes but I think the crank has been turned on the main bearings at least 0.020" undersize. How much effort was required to remove the caps? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 35 minutes ago, gungeey said: How much effort was required to remove the caps? Steve Just a straight forward removal is to remove the bolts and jiggle it a little bit and it comes right out ... then push the bearing shell out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just curious as to brand of the bearings? Clearance when disassembled? Just curious, NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 http://Engine-bearing-failures-and-how-to-avoid-them1.pdf No brand on the bearings and my guess is that it's just inferior bearing material. These bearings were sourced by machine shop. I saw this one time before on a 51 Ford flathead engine that had an undersized crankshaft. It seems that the bearing shell the steel shell is used on all the undersized bearings and the standard bearing too. In this case you end up with a thicker layer of bearing material that might be more likely to crack and flake off. If this was a common bearing I'd look for some better quality ones but in this case I'll be lucky to just find some bearings. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 13 hours ago, old-tank said: in this case I'll be lucky to just find some bearings. Here is a little food for thought from the kids with big insert bearings. https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/pouring-main-bearings-for-an-ihc-m-1-1-2-hp.19792/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I used Terrill Machine in De Leon Texas for my main and rod bearings and other engine parts, and they had a quality products and were great to deal with. Friend of mine used Egge Machine in Texas for his 66 Ford F100 engine parts, he is waiting for his parts to arrive. If you need to measure your crankshaft journals you can borrow my outside micrometers. Just some thoughts, Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I was not kidding about repouring on the old backs. I would certainly not rule it out. I looked on Ebay for 322 Buick engine bearings. There are quite a few old stock items. I have used the search notification feature to assemble parts for a project from both keywords and part numbers. With time on your side now is the time to start. I tend to over buy and resell what I did not use or want. I wanted a copy of one of the Richard Sealey Keep Your Volkswagen Alive books from the 1980s to review his writing style. It looks like those are some kind of cult books now, going for up to $100. Search notification got me one for $16 a few days ago. Even a sneaky search like "0.020" would not overwhelm anyone looking for bearings misspelled or some description mistake. Not that many come in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Have you had a look at the condition cam bearings yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 31 minutes ago, EmTee said: Have you had a look at the condition cam bearings yet? See one of my posts dec 31 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 OK, yes, I did see that picture of the cam bearing (duh...). Anyway, do you think that material spalled from the cam bearing could have contaminated the main bearings leading to that damage? Not sure why the rods were spared, but maybe something about the oil circulates through the engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Another thought to share from my history, check the gaskets at the timing chain oil passages, head, and oil pump passages. When I did the 3.8 for my Park Ave convertible we had no oil pressure on start up. We discovered there were two different gaskets and my engine kit came with the wrong on and the gasket was blocking flow. Had it been slightly off and restricting or the oil pressure had blown through the gasket we might not have known, just run at lower pressure for ten years. In another instance with coolant flow instead of oil I had a Terraplane convertible coupe that had always run hot since a professional rebuild. The first time out it severely overheated. When cooled and refilled it was OK but not cooling 100%. The owner bought a new distribution plate for the straight eight figuring it rusted and was bypassing. When I removed the plate I found gasket material hanging like an old curtain in the block. The shop had fabricated a perimeter gasket and not cut out the center. Completely blocked the first time cause steam to blow through the blocking gasket and left remnants to impede the flow. I did put the new plate in to avoid an "I thought" incident. So look through those disassembled parts with that in mind just in case there is something suspicious going on with the oil flow. An put a test gauge on it when you are done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 (edited) 14 hours ago, EmTee said: OK, yes, I did see that picture of the cam bearing (duh...). Anyway, do you think that material spalled from the cam bearing could have contaminated the main bearings leading to that damage? Not sure why the rods were spared, but maybe something about the oil circulates through the engine? The wear on the cam bearing and the chunks missing from the main bearings are two different issues. Besides the babbit material from the bearings is not abrasive anyway. The big problem is the failure of the material on the main bearings not wear. I checked the clearance on the main bearings with plastigauge and they were not worn. Neither were the rod bearings. If I knew the size of the main bearings I could just roll some new ones in there and put it back together. One other observation, the rope seal in the rear main bearing cap was not leaking but it had a hard glazed finish on it. Edited January 3 by old-tank (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) Edited January 3 by gungeey (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gungeey Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Do the main bearing inserts appear as your earlier picture on the block side also? I wonder about the resistance of the caps when removed, after 20 years the varnish should be like cement, they usually put up a fight. Any tiny play would allow the caps to cock at your index mating surface. As I'm sure you know they should be a light press fit. Just something to consider. Steve in MA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 2 hours ago, gungeey said: Do the main bearing inserts appear as your earlier picture on the block side also? I wonder about the resistance of the caps when removed, after 20 years the varnish should be like cement, they usually put up a fight. Any tiny play would allow the caps to cock at your index mating surface. As I'm sure you know they should be a light press fit. Just something to consider. Steve in MA Nothing abnormal on the backsides. My guess is these were no brand economy bearings that gave up after 20 years and 120K miles. The rest of the engine appears to be good for another 100K miles. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I went looking through service literature last night for bearing specs. Looks like the 322s are only "322" items. I might have suspected trhey would have been the same as the 364s, but that apparently is not the case. As far as "as produced" goes. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) Willie drives his cars and wants them reliable. He is a retired veterinarian..... I think he can handle fixing an old Buick engine without issue. Pressure gage.... l'll bet he has at least 3 Edited January 4 by Barney Eaton (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Well, for me, an engine that gets past 100k miles owes you nothing. Anything beyond is a bonus. After the rebuild she'll be good for another 100k. Looking forward to watching you rebuild and first start. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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