Do you also replace the timing chain when replacing water pump?

[JamesR]

I'm replacing the water pump on my FE 352 Mercury engine...about 58,000 actual miles. Runs pretty good. How many of you also replace the timing chain while you have everything else apart to replace the water pump? My research on the internet seems to indicate that it's highly recommended to replace the timing BELT on later model cars when replacing the water pump or vice versa, but I don't know if that also holds true for older V-8's with timing chains. I have no experience changing a timing chain, but I always like to avoid additional work in the future if possible, and taking off all the stuff again as well as the water pump I recently put on to change the timing chain would be a hassle and demoralizing.

[joe_padavano]

First, stop assuming that information on the interwebs is correct. About 80% of the automotive info I've seen is flat wrong.

Second, later model engines with timing belts typically drive the water pump with that timing belt. You have to pull the timing belt off to change the water pump, so in that case you'd be silly not to install a new water pump at the same time you were changing the belt. The amount of additional work is just the number of bolts on the water pump. Also, timing belts typically should be replaced at about 50,000 miles.

 

Your FE motor has the timing chain under the front cover. The amount of additional work to change the timing chain involves removing the pressed-on harmonic balancer, removing the front cover, and then replacing the timing chain. That's significantly more work than just the water pump. It is unlikely that a timing chain with 58,000 miles on it needs replacement. Some engines (like my Oldsmobiles) use a cam gear with nylon teeth. These usually turn to nubs by 80,000 miles, which is when I replace the chain. On the other hand, the 454 in my Chevy truck has all-metal gears and when I replaced the chain at 150,000 miles as a preventative measure, it still looked absolutely fine. I have no experience with Ford timing sets, unfortunately.

Edited August 6, 2023 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Depends what it is.

 

On a 64-90 Oldsmobile V8 for example, once the water pump is out of the way another few bolts and a puller can have the harmonic balancer and timing cover off, and a small modification to the timing cover's oil pan seal retainer makes a timing set replacement relatively easy. These engines also have fiber toothed cam timing sprockets that are notorious for breaking apart, so changing out a timing set for one with steel sprockets is a no-brainer if engine has 80k or more miles on it.

 

Your engine and experience may vary. Generally steel timing sets last a good long time.

[JamesR]

Thanks Joe, Jack and Rocketraider. I haven't noticed any problems - everything's very quiet -  but didn't want to avoid an opportunity if one was presenting itself. I really appreciate the education on timing chains and related stuff, and your time and effort in helping me out! Thanks again.

[joe_padavano]

24 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

 a small modification to the timing cover's oil pan seal retainer makes a timing set replacement relatively easy.

Glenn, we'll agree to disagree on on your definition of "relatively easy"... 😉

[rocketraider]

That's why I used the qualifier "relatively". And bad as I hate to admit it I learned the trick from the SBC guys!

 

I think some company makes plastic shims and wedges specifically to gain oil pan clearance when trying to coax a timing cover back in place, but I had an air-powered die grinder and didn't have those wedges...

[joe_padavano]

51 minutes ago, rocketraider said:

That's why I used the qualifier "relatively". And bad as I hate to admit it I learned the trick from the SBC guys!

 

I think some company makes plastic shims and wedges specifically to gain oil pan clearance when trying to coax a timing cover back in place, but I had an air-powered die grinder and didn't have those wedges...

Actually, I made some offset screw studs that go into the lower bolt holes for the front cover and allow you to wedge that rubber seal down against the oil pan. You have to temporarily pull the dowel pins out, but once the offset studs are rotated down, you can tap the pins back in. Last one I did was a piece of cake.

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Jack Bennett said:

possibly the water pump…although usually not

I would beg to differ with that statement. Here's a small sample.

 

[Paul Dobbin]

If you are going remove all that spaggetti, might as well do the Waterpump at the same time.  Save some money and a lot of work.

I'm m speaking for modern cars where the waterpump ia buried behibd everything else.  Mercury may not be modern enough to matter.

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, Jack Bennett said:

My 1947 Chevy Fleetline used a small drive gear on the crankshaft, and a huge driven gear on the camshaft. Both were made of fiber, and the teeth would shear off without warning. But, during that era the owner/driver had a pretty good idea of the problem, and how to repair it along side Highway 66.

Just a side note on more modern, timing belt equipped engines. The primary job of the timing belt, which relies totally on rubber cleats, meshing for a fraction of a second with a wildly spinning gear, is to rotate the camshaft, possibly the water pump…although usually not….and ensure that the valves are opened and closed in synchronized harmony with the stroke of a piston. In the days where the distributor was also driven by the camshaft, and timed accordingly, when the belt broke, the camshaft stopped and ignition timing ceased when the belt broke. That resulted in the engine losing power, and fuel was no longer being fed to, or exploded in the combustion chamber. Also, cylinder heads were designed to leave some clearance between an open valve and a cylinder top when it rotated past TDC. That is not the case now. Ignition and fuel management is managed by a little device called a Electronic Programmable Read-Only Memory (EPROM) and most engines now also have camshaft positioning sensors which allow a variable to valve timing as engine speeds and power needs demand. Without lengthy, and perhaps boring details, I will add that a broken timing belt may result in a cylinder, still under power, being repeatedly slammed into the valves left open when the belt broke. Needless to say this can cause the total, and irreparable destruction of a very expensive, and under different circumstances, otherwise perfectly good engine.

Thus the mandate to change engine timing belts within prescribed time periods.

Jack

This scenario (of wiping out an engine) you described for more modern engines has been going on now for more than 56 years in some engines. 1966 OHC Pontiac six will do that. I witnessed a 1978 D15A3 Honda explode in a Prelude, wasn't pretty.

On some of my traditional Pontiac V-8 cars I have learned to pick a nice day when the vehicle goes over 35K to do the water pump and the timing gear. Pontiac's just like to jump and destroy from 35-75K and then where are you???? Now you've got to drop the pan and get the mess out and hope none of that crud made it past the oil pump to the oil galleries I've been in a car when the chain slipped over the gear for the first time. I would rather do it when I have the time because if left to an engines own nuance it will happen when I've got something better to do-OR I'm in the middle of NOWHERE. After it's done and with the proper double roller chain and gears and new water pump that's just one engine I don't have to worry about.

One thing to note is stick shift cars tend to not only wear down or break off (due to heat) the plastic/fiber coated teeth much faster than automatic cars because of the on again/off again of going up through the gears and downshifting having a push-pull effect on the gears/chain.   

[Steve9]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

First, stop assuming that information on the interwebs is correct. About 80% of the automotive info I've seen is flat wrong.

Second, later model engines with timing belts typically drive the water pump with that timing belt. You have to pull the timing belt off to change the water pump, so in that case you'd be silly not to install a new water pump at the same time you were changing the belt. The amount of additional work is just the number of bolts on the water pump. Also, timing belts typically should be replaced at about 50,000 miles.

Modern day timing belts will give you 100K easily.

[60FlatTop]

3 hours ago, JamesR said:

'm replacing the water pump on my FE 352 Mercury engine...about 58,000 actual miles.

In my garage a lot questions come to mind from experience, mostly fixing other people's cars.

 

What are the circumstances around the water pump failure? Did you recently acquire the car? Was it in regular use or did you recommission it after a long period of sitting idle?. How was that 58,000 miles put on the car over the possible 65 years? Did it get 20,000 in the first couple of years and then sit for a number of years? Or sit for long stretches many times? Each time the car sat was it recommissioned properly or "just put a battery in the old Merc and she ran like new"?

 

I like the term "benevolent neglect". It is very common.

 

That chain could have had many dry starts, same for the engine bearings that might be showing copper.

 

Have you flushed the rearend and transmission to be sure you don't have a couple pints of condensation from temperature changes during the time it averaged something like 80 miles per month?

 

I would be prepared to go deeper, maybe drop the pan to investigate and flush the fluids. The cars lifespan history should determine the steps you take.

[intimeold]

I worked as a technician at a Ford/Lincoln-Mercury dealership; when there were still 352's and 390's, 360 trucks, 428's still running around every day.  Those engines are all FE style powerplants.

 

Back then if and engine needed a water pump; it was for a coolant leak, usually. 

 

People would have thought we were "Padding" the repair bill, if we just did more than the water pump. 

 

So, where does it stop?  Water pump leaking, would it seem rational to overhaul the engine too?  The water pump; and it's function is far removed from the timing chain or timing gears, function.

 

But in saying that; if You as the owner, would feel better by digging deeper in the engine if the miles are high, or some other reason; go ahead.

 

You can't compare that style of engine to some modern engines that have water pumps, deep in the engine.  The 352 engine, water pump is super simple to replace, unlike some newer models.

intimeold

Edited August 7, 2023 by intimeold (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

3 hours ago, Paul Dobbin said:

If you are going remove all that spaggetti, might as well do the Waterpump at the same time.  Save some money and a lot of work.

I'm m speaking for modern cars where the waterpump ia buried behibd everything else.  Mercury may not be modern enough to matter.

The OP IS changing the water pump. He's asking about the timing chain.

Edited August 7, 2023 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[Bloo]

7 hours ago, JamesR said:

I'm replacing the water pump on my FE 352 Mercury engine...about 58,000 actual miles. Runs pretty good. How many of you also replace the timing chain while you have everything else apart to replace the water pump?

You didn't mention a year. Later ones have plastic sprockets. They rot, the teeth fall off, pieces of them get sucked into the oil pump, which then twists off the oil pump drive shaft causing no oil pressure and catastrophic engine failure.

 

If the teeth are steel, the timing set is still worn out at 58000 miles, as it would be in any old American car V8 with a "silent chain" drive. It would have been bad at 20,000 miles. For the most part, nobody knows that because it can get a lot worse, and it will by 100,000 miles, but still will not have any effect the driver will notice. Unless the engine fails early, no one ever sees the loose chain. They are all loose.

 

If you take the cover off and check it against the spec in the shop manual the chain will prove to be "bad" but unless it's so loose it's slapping the cover there is really nothing to be gained by replacing it as long as it is all steel. The danger is if it is plastic.

 

If it was made before about 1963, I don't think I would take it apart. In my opinion, those earliest FEs tend to be a can of worms, and are most likely too old to have plastic sprockets. I don't know what year they started using plastic. My 1970 had a plastic one. If there is a possibility of a plastic sprocket, I would pull the cover, and if is in great shape, I would replace the whole timing set with a steel one. If the plastic is damaged in any way, or if you find any pieces of tooth, I would pull the oil pan too and give it a thorough cleaning. In this case, also replace the pickup on the oil pump. If there have been loose chunks of plastic floating around in there, do not skip replacing the pickup.

 

If you take the timing cover off, you will need to buy, make, or fake a tool to align it. This is just a round tube that fits pretty close around the crank snout, and engages the seal hole in the timing cover. It holds the seal hole centered around the crank while you tighten the timing cover bolts. The front cover does not lock into the oil pan like on some other makes, and you don't have to drop the oil pan to remove it, but it does use the front couple of inches of the the oil pan gasket. A gasket set for the cover will include replacement pieces of pan gasket. Use sealer at the corner where it all intersects. You might want to replace the front seal. The piece the seal rides on may have a groove worn. If it does, either replace it or put a speedi sleeve on it.

 

To directly answer your question, NOBODY would have done any of this as part of a water pump service back in the day. If you care about the car though, you may need to consider it.

 

P.S. pay attention to the year of the timing chain set. A timing set exists for some smog-era FEs that retards the cam timing 6 degrees. You don't want that one in a 352. That kludge came after they had stopped making 352s, so it can't possibly be the right part. It looks identical.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Bloo (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

17 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said:

I’ll bet most of my egged face that I can take 10 minutes and find a number of engines which use a serpentine belt to power accessories, such as water pumps, air conditioner compressors, power steering pumps and emission control pumps.

I suspect that you will find that those motors predominantly use a timing chain, not a belt. The Chevy LS motors, for example, use a timing chain with an external, belt-driven water pump. Ford DOHC Modular V8 uses a timing chain for the cams and a belt-driven water pump. Same for the Northstar (where the water pump is belt driven off the other end of one of the cams!). None of these use timing belts.

[Rusty_OToole]

One way to check for wear in the timing chain is to pop the distributor cap and see how far you can turn the crankshaft back and forth before the rotor moves. This will give an idea how much slop there is in the timing chain and gears. What is normal, and what is excessive I leave to the Ford experts.

[JamesR]

4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

 

What are the circumstances around the water pump failure? Did you recently acquire the car? Was it in regular use or did you recommission it after a long period of sitting idle?. How was that 58,000 miles put on the car over the possible 65 years? Did it get 20,000 in the first couple of years and then sit for a number of years? Or sit for long stretches many times? Each time the car sat was it recommissioned properly or "just put a battery in the old Merc and she ran like new"?

 

I like the term "benevolent neglect". It is very common.

 

That chain could have had many dry starts, same for the engine bearings that might be showing copper.

 

Have you flushed the rearend and transmission to be sure you don't have a couple pints of condensation from temperature changes during the time it averaged something like 80 miles per month?

 

I would be prepared to go deeper, maybe drop the pan to investigate and flush the fluids. The cars lifespan history should determine the steps you take.

I've owned the car about 17 years I guess. It's a '61 Monterey. I don't really know the usage or maintenance before I bought it but I got it from the original owner's family and they told me some things about the car, like it was mostly highway miles, as I recall. I've had a local transmission shop I trust check out the fluids and the rear end a couple times since I've owned it. I've put close to 10k miles on it since I've owned it. I haven't seen any metal shavings in the oil.

[Str8-8-Dave]

Ford FE engines use steel gears and pretty decent chains.  Most GM engines from the early 60's into the 80s or maybe even 90s used aluminum cam gears with nylon teeth thought to reduce noise, and they really reduce noise when they fail, the engine goes quiet.  The local Pontiac dealer replaced the oil pan on my 1969 GTO equipped with high performance Ram Air IV engine at about 8,000 miles under warranty, it developed a stress crack in the stamped oil pan.  They also wound up replacing the factory timing chain and gears because half the nylon teeth had already failed and were laying in the bottom of the original pan.  The dealer put a Cloyes heavy duty chain and good steel gears in that engine to preclude a catastrophic engine failure. 

 

One easy check on timing chains is to rotate the engine slightly forward and reverse, can be done by using the fan on the old FE's that have solid non-viscous fans.  On engines with viscous drive fans you have to put a breaker bar and socket on the damper wheel bolt.  The crankshaft should only rotate a degree or 2 back and forth before you feel the effort go way up indicating you have taken the slack out of the timing chain in each direction to the point it starts to rotate the camshaft gear.  If it rotates quite a bit, tear it apart and service the chain and gears.  If it only rotates a couple degrees the gears and chain are likely healthy.  

[Laughing Coyote]

9 minutes ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

Ford FE engines use steel gears and pretty decent chains

Agreed. Mine was all steel sprockets when I did the engine. If you decide to change it out make sure you get the right timing chain set. I had a vendor send me one for a 1961 352 engine and the top sprocket was actually for a 1964 352. The locating pin for the cam is on the opposite side. I still have it in a box. The bottom one is the same and the chain is the same. 

 

From my restore page:

 

I figured out that the timing set that they sent me was for a 64 not a 61. :mad: I can use the chain and crank sprocket not the cam sprocket. The company does not offer the right sprocket as a set and the cost for the sprocket was more than the whole set including shipping. The correct one is on the left and if you look at it the dowel pin hole is farther away from the center hole. The back on the correct one is flat and doesn't have the big step on it. I checked it over with the original one and we're all good now. I have the starter end cap all repaired and have the case and other parts all cleaned and ready to go. Just have to order the rebuild kit and that will be done. I'm going to order the oil pump and pan gasket next so I can get he bottom all buttoned up.

[Pfeil]

41 minutes ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

Ford FE engines use steel gears and pretty decent chains.  Most GM engines from the early 60's into the 80s or maybe even 90s used aluminum cam gears with nylon teeth thought to reduce noise, and they really reduce noise when they fail, the engine goes quiet.  The local Pontiac dealer replaced the oil pan on my 1969 GTO equipped with high performance Ram Air IV engine at about 8,000 miles under warranty, it developed a stress crack in the stamped oil pan.  They also wound up replacing the factory timing chain and gears because half the nylon teeth had already failed and were laying in the bottom of the original pan.  The dealer put a Cloyes heavy duty chain and good steel gears in that engine to preclude a catastrophic engine failure. 

 

One easy check on timing chains is to rotate the engine slightly forward and reverse, can be done by using the fan on the old FE's that have solid non-viscous fans.  On engines with viscous drive fans you have to put a breaker bar and socket on the damper wheel bolt.  The crankshaft should only rotate a degree or 2 back and forth before you feel the effort go way up indicating you have taken the slack out of the timing chain in each direction to the point it starts to rotate the camshaft gear.  If it rotates quite a bit, tear it apart and service the chain and gears.  If it only rotates a couple degrees the gears and chain are likely healthy.  

OE Ford FE engines used plastic fiber gear on camshaft. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[Bloo]

6 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

OE Ford FE engines used plastic fiber gear on camshaft. 

Some of them sure did! Not all of them, but it is a question of which ones, and I don't know. They were plastic in 1970.

 

The failure I described above is well known and common. 352 implies an earlier engine, but I don't remember what year they stopped making them in favor of the 360. 1967 maybe?. I'll bet there are some 352s out in the wild with plastic sprockets.

 

The early setup @Laughing Coyote pictured also had a spring loaded puck holding the cam in place instead of a bolted thrust plate. That setup is not interchangeable for a whole bunch of reasons. I am fairly confident no FEs that early had plastic sprockets.

 

[Pfeil]

13 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Some of them sure did! Not all of them, but it is a question of which ones, and I don't know. They were plastic in 1970.

 

The failure I described above is well known and common. 352 implies an earlier engine, but I don't remember what year they stopped making them in favor of the 360. 1967 maybe?. I'll bet there are some 352s out in the wild with plastic sprockets.

 

The early setup @Laughing Coyote pictured also had a spring loaded puck holding the cam in place instead of a bolted thrust plate. That setup is not interchangeable for a whole bunch of reasons. I am fairly confident no FEs that early had plastic sprockets.

 

The thing that really got me was a friend from work had a 63-1/2 Factory 427 dual quad FE Galaxie which at the time he got it was a low milage street/strip car and ad never been apart. We found a nylon cam gear in it from the factory! That was a 425 hp solid lifter engine.

 I know for sure no Super Duty Pontiac's came that way. Even my 69 LeMans with a 354 H-O engine had a steel gear.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[JamesR]

13 hours ago, Laughing Coyote said:

Agreed. Mine was all steel sprockets when I did the engine. If you decide to change it out make sure you get the right timing chain set. I had a vendor send me one for a 1961 352 engine and the top sprocket was actually for a 1964 352. The locating pin for the cam is on the opposite side. I still have it in a box. The bottom one is the same and the chain is the same. 

 

From my restore page:

 

I figured out that the timing set that they sent me was for a 64 not a 61. :mad: I can use the chain and crank sprocket not the cam sprocket. The company does not offer the right sprocket as a set and the cost for the sprocket was more than the whole set including shipping. The correct one is on the left and if you look at it the dowel pin hole is farther away from the center hole. The back on the correct one is flat and doesn't have the big step on it. I checked it over with the original one and we're all good now. I have the starter end cap all repaired and have the case and other parts all cleaned and ready to go. Just have to order the rebuild kit and that will be done. I'm going to order the oil pump and pan gasket next so I can get he bottom all buttoned up.

 

Wow, thanks for the warning. Sorry for your misfortune. Taking Bloo's caution to heart, the last thing I want to do is open a can of worms by fixing something that doesn't appear to be broken, but I want to cover my bases. I opted for replacing the water pump only - leaving the timing chain be - which seems to be the consensus of opinion from those who responded. If there's a new way to install a timing chain wrong, I'll certainly find it. Thanks very much for the specific and detailed info on '61 Merc 352 timing chains.

[PWN]

19 hours ago, Steve9 said:

Modern day timing belts will give you 100K easily.

Unless you drive a VW diesel. 60k