Help needed: 63 Electra lower on one side - suspension or frame?

[Electra63]

Hello Buick guys.

I've been trying to get to the bottom of an issue with my 63 Electra which sits about 1 to 1-1/2 " lower on the left rear than on the right rear.

Front is also off but by only 1/2 to 3/4"

So here is the story..... About 2-3 months after buying the car I noticed one day when it was in my garage that it looked lower on the rear left (photo).  Also the rear left spring (original) looked more compressed than the right.

I took it to a suspension place who deal with modern and older vehicles and after eyeballing it the guy told me it looked like a weak spring.

So I bought a replacement set from Cars (Oldbuickparts.com) which they had custom made from a place they've used for 30+years.  I believe they came from Espo Springs in PA.

Anyway, I pay to have the shop replace new with old and after I pick up the car and drive it home I realize its exactly the same....lower by 1-1/2 ish on the left !

So I get under the car and its the exact same thing - left spring more compressed than the right.  what the heck?

I call the shop and they tell me that the guy wrote on the shop ticket that he believes the frame is bent and to go to a body shop.

So I take it to a local place that has a frame machine and they measure the frame and tell me that it's not the frame and they see no damage that would cause the vehicle to sit skew by so much and tell me it has to be the suspension.

After talking more to the owner and his lead tech, the lead guy tells me it happened once before to him on a 67 Chevelle.  The car sat lower on one side, so they separated the body from the frame and put the frame on a level surface - it was perfect.  They then put it all back together and hey-ho it was still lower on one side.

He told me maybe a drag link was bad, or bushings etc.

Before I go back around this loop I'd really appreciate any input from this community as you guys have probably seen most situations by now?

My observations:

1.  The left rear spring looks more compressed than the right, and the right has more of a curve/arc to it.  Perhaps this is related to the different compression between the sides?  It almost looks as if the spring perches are in different positions (?!)

2. The drag links look to be OK (no damage) 

3.  When you bounce the car, everything seems to move freely and return smoothly with little to no resistance.

4.  Could the orientation of the springs be wrong and if so, could it cause this problem?  The shop manual says right spring should have open end to the front and left spring to the back.  I found it difficult to see how they are oriented but could this cause such a problem?

5.  the only mechanical difference I see between the two sides from the shop manual is that right side has the extra adjustment link to set the angle of the drive train.  Could this be a factor if its binding slightly? (...but again - everything seems to move freely in the bushings)

 

All input appreciated.  with the spring replacement etc I'm in $500-700 and I dont want to throw good money after bad.

Note:  obviously I checked that the trunk is empty and there is no additional load/weight on either side of the car

 

my fingers are crossed that someone has 'been there, seen that' before ! 

thanks !

 

Photos: 

rear of car showing the slant

right and left side showing height difference at wheel arch

right spring 

left spring (with the brake hose in the picture) 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Electra63 (see edit history)

[telriv]

IF the right front spring is not orientated into it's pocket properly it would allow the right front to be higher & consequently affect the left rear.

Check the chassis manual for proper orientation on the front springs. There IS a certain way they are supposed to be orientated. 

Same with the rear. The top end tag is supposed to be at a certain orientation also.

I have seen this MANY times over the years. 

 

Tom T.

[Electra63]

Thanks Tom 

I'll check your suggestions next. 

Wish I could jump on it right away but I'm going out of town for a week... but hey -something to look forward to when I return....!

I really appreciate the advice and quick reply 

 

Mark 

 

[OldGerman]

Was this car involved in a bankrobbery and they forgot to remove the hide away Gold bar from one side of the Frame ? 🤩

 

[Electra63]

2 hours ago, OldGerman said:

Was this car involved in a bankrobbery and they forgot to remove the hide away Gold bar from one side of the Frame ? 🤩

 

Ha ha.  I like the thought.  Perhaps I'll get it x-rayed.  You may see me on national TV news 🤣

[EmTee]

How do all of the the body mounts look?

[moran75]

I have a 65 that sags just like yrs …the lower control arm bushings are shot on that side which may account for at least some of the sag, if not all…worth checking as well

 

kev

[Electra63]

On 1/30/2023 at 3:01 PM, EmTee said:

How do all of the the body mounts look?

The body mounts are not in great condition. Some are pretty bad.  They could account for some of the sag but according to what I can tell they would not account for the full 1.5 + inches...unless you've seen otherwise ?

 

[Electra63]

On 1/30/2023 at 6:59 PM, moran75 said:

I have a 65 that sags just like yrs …the lower control arm bushings are shot on that side which may account for at least some of the sag, if not all…worth checking as well

 

kev

Thanks Kev.  Bushings are original I believe.  Everything moves freely and no creaking etc when I bounce the car on either side at the back. Is there a way to tell if the bushings could be causing the sag?  From what I can tell using a tape measure there  is about 1/4 or 3/8 height difference between the top and bottom spring mounts on either side when the car is sitting.  

[steelman]

Jack the car and put a jackstand under each corner of the frame, front and rear on a semi level surface. Check across front and rear for level and adjust as needed with shims. Now measure all wheel arches. Record front, rear, and center of each arch on each side. If these are drastically different, it it frame or body mounts. If all are within a certain tolerance, the difference is in the suspension.

[JZRIV]

Agree with Tom T the front being off can affect the rear. Spring orientation is more critical in front due to the lower control arm & suspension physics. On a long car a little off in front could make the rear off a lot more. Besides weight, compression distance can also be affected by resistance to movement in the suspension bushings but since everything is moving smoothly with no binding probably not the cause. 

I had same issue in past with a leaf-sprung pickup. Left rear 1.5" low. Drove me nuts looking at it on a level surface. I went through all the theoretical issues with spring eye bushings front and back and whatnot but still same problem though I did not replace springs as I wasn't convinced that was the issue. I finally shimmed the left rear spring and got on with life. Oddly enough I only had to shim 5/8 to get L & R trim heights to match. Sometimes we end up chasing ghosts on these old vehicles that drain our wallet and enjoyment! 

Edited February 1, 2023 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

The inner sleeve of the suspension bushings is serrated on the ends and grips the control arm when tightened. A shop will disconnect your shocks, remove the spring bolts, and pull the axle down enough to jam the spring in and clamp it down. It is common procedure.

 

Looking at your pictures hardly anything was touched or a drop of penetrating oil used. All dry and rusty.

 

To do the job properly the bushing through bolts need to all be loosened. The I use a large cold chisel to spread the control arm away from the serrated inner bushing sleeves so they move freely. Otherwise they grip and the old rubber at each point gets twisted, sometimes enough to tear it. The rear axle can be lowered freely with no resistance and the springs set in place. New nuts or at least lightly lubricated ones can hold the spring clamp down.

Once installed the car should have its weight on the tires and jounced a couple of times. Then you can reach in and tighten the bushing bolts without lifting the car.

 

Print that out and show what I wrote to the shop guys. See if they say "Duh, what's a seragation?"

 

Or just correct their job yourself. Sometimes there is much more satisfaction in leaving them in ignorance than trying to explain.

 

Next time you are tempted to use a shop ask for an estimate. Subtract the cost of the parts and use their labor amount to buy tools.

[Electra63]

Thanks for all the replies!  I really appreciate it.

I'll post updates as I work through the various suggestions and recommendations 

[Electra63]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:48 PM, telriv said:

IF the right front spring is not orientated into it's pocket properly it would allow the right front to be higher & consequently affect the left rear.

Check the chassis manual for proper orientation on the front springs. There IS a certain way they are supposed to be orientated. 

Same with the rear. The top end tag is supposed to be at a certain orientation also.

I have seen this MANY times over the years. 

 

Tom T.

Hey Tom (& JZRiv). 

I'm back from my trip and managed to find time to jack up the front end and take a look at the springs.

Per the manual the bottom end of the spring should be within 1/4" of the hole in the lower control arm.

The spring on the left (driver) side seems to be within tolerance but on the right it's more like 3/4" away from the hole so perhaps 1/2" over spec.  

I've posted a couple of pics.  Was a bit difficult to get a photo from directly above with the tape measure in place but you can see the difference. 

Any idea if as little as 1/2" over spec on the coil position could cause 1-1/2" difference in the back ?

 

I'm going to try to get a good look at the rear spring positions next, just to be sure...

[Electra63]

From what I can tell after today's few minutes under the car with a flashlight the rear spring orientation isn't correct.  

I'm going to set up an appointment with the suspension shop and get that corrected to at least eliminate it from the equation 

[telriv]

I still say the top of the spring is not orientated correctly.

No need to go to a shop for the rear just dis-connect the bottom of the shocks & let the rear end hang down, which will relieve some pressure on the springs, then you should be able to rotate the springs into their proper position if needed.

Again, look at the chassis manual.

 

Tom T.

Edited February 13, 2023 by telriv (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

On 1/28/2023 at 3:27 PM, Electra63 said:

the guy told me it looked like

I ran into one of those guys around 1963. Within 10 years I had shed myself of them for the most part. He wasn't the first one then. And I see they keep spawning.

 

You can out perform him simply because you care more.

[Electra63]

4 hours ago, telriv said:

I still say the top of the spring is not orientated correctly.

No need to go to a shop for the rear just dis-connect the bottom of the shocks & let the rear end hang down, which will relieve some pressure on the springs, then you should be able to rotate the springs into their proper position if needed.

Again, look at the chassis manual.

 

Tom T.

Thanks Tom.  I don't have a lift which makes it more tricky but I'll ask my son to assist and perhaps we can do it on the driveway 

[telriv]

Mark,

 

For the rear a jack & a of couple jack stands are nec.

Jack by using the rear pumpkin & put the stands under the frame where the lower control arm attaches to the frame towards the front. Easier to remove both rear tires.

Let the jack down until the shocks are at full extension then jack up one/two pumps to lessen tension.. Dis-connect the bottom of shocks & remove. IF I remember correctly a 5/8ths. & 11/16ths. wrenches. Now remove the bolts & the shocks will extend to full length.

Now let the rear end down & the rear will be hanging by the springs. Install a piece of 2x4 between the springs & the rear end housing. This helps to keep the spring from moving & makes for easier bolt up when done doing what's nec. Keep a little tension on the rear with the jack.

Looks like the rear springs are new so you shouldn't need any penetrating lube. Loosen the lower bolt & nut which is 3/4". Not nec. to remove just loosen a couple turns. 

The top bolt is harder to get to as you need to go though the middle of the spring. A 3/4" socket, universal & extension will do the trick. Again not nec to remove only loosen.

Now you should be ale to turn the springs into the nec. positions by using the jack to find a neutral position.

I feel by orientating the rear springs will NOT take care of the sag.

Should be NO PROBLEM doing this in the driveway. IF it's hot outside use pieces of 3/4" plywood to put under the jack stand legs to keep them from sinking into the asphalt.

Hope this helps.

 

The rear is MUCH EAISER than the front.

 

I can walk you through this also but consult the chassis manual.  

When it comes time I can give you some tips to make the job easier.

 

Tom T.

 

 

 

Tom T.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by telriv (see edit history)

[Electra63]

7 hours ago, telriv said:

Mark,

 

For the rear a jack & a of couple jack stands are nec.

Jack by using the rear pumpkin & put the stands under the frame where the lower control arm attaches to the frame towards the front. Easier to remove both rear tires.

Let the jack down until the shocks are at full extension then jack up one/two pumps to lessen tension.. Dis-connect the bottom of shocks & remove. IF I remember correctly a 5/8ths. & 11/16ths. wrenches. Now remove the bolts & the shocks will extend to full length.

Now let the rear end down & the rear will be hanging by the springs. Install a piece of 2x4 between the springs & the rear end housing. This helps to keep the spring from moving & makes for easier bolt up when done doing what's nec. Keep a little tension on the rear with the jack.

Looks like the rear springs are new so you shouldn't need any penetrating lube. Loosen the lower bolt & nut which is 3/4". Not nec. to remove just loosen a couple turns. 

The top bolt is harder to get to as you need to go though the middle of the spring. A 3/4" socket, universal & extension will do the trick. Again not nec to remove only loosen.

Now you should be ale to turn the springs into the nec. positions by using the jack to find a neutral position.

I feel by orientating the rear springs will NOT take care of the sag.

Should be NO PROBLEM doing this in the driveway. IF it's hot outside use pieces of 3/4" plywood to put under the jack stand legs to keep them from sinking into the asphalt.

Hope this helps.

 

The rear is MUCH ESIAER than the front.

 

I can walk you through this also but consult the chassis manual.  

When it comes time I can give you some tips to make the job easier.

 

Tom T.

 

 

 

Tom T.

 

15 hours ago, telriv said:

 

Thanks Tom this is VERY helpful and will save me some time.

I'll post an update once I've tackled the rear.  It's in the 60s and dry where I am right now so ideal conditions to do this work outside 

[Electra63]

@Tom T

Quick question....

When you say "I feel by orientating the rear springs will NOT take care of the sag" are you thinking that the sag is caused by the front right spring, or something else?

thanks

[telriv]

Yes Mark.

 

Tom T.

[Electra63]

@telriv

Hi Tom.  So... this afternoon I finished rotating the rear springs with the help of my son.

It wasn't quite as straight forward as we hoped.  We disconnected the drive shaft from the diff to allow it to drop as far as possible, but the springs didn't free up enough to be able to rotate them.  The problem was the bottom spring retainers.  The angle of the trailing arms meant that the bottom of the springs jammed between the lower arm and the spring retainer on the front facing side.  The top spring retainer wasn't really a problem and we got that good and loose but the bolts on the bottom retainers are not that long and we didn't want to undo the it all the way and have the spring pop out of position.

Long story short with some spring compressors and a bit of finagling we got everything to where we could rotate the springs so the top ends are now facing in the required directions per the shop manual.

 

...and of course you were right.  No difference in the 'sag' on the left side...its about the same.  At least I can now check that off the list of possible causes...!     [Edit] What I will say is that the springs look a lot more even and symmetrical to each other now they are oriented correctly per the manual. Previously the right looked quite "banana'd" whereas the left was straighter. Now they are both even. 

 

So....of course, my next question is - what should I attack next?  You mentioned the front end, but is there anything else I should check before that, as the front end work sounds like a much more involved job?

Perhaps I'm suffering from worn bushings, even though everything appears to move freely?

I considered spraying all my rear end bushings with silicone lubricant, but somehow I don't think that's going to change anything..

Also the body mounts are original and in varying degrees of condition.  By my reckoning having made a few measurements I doubt that would contribute more than about 1/4 to 3/8 of the overall 1-1/2" sag.

Finally the link that adjusts the drive line angle is attached to the right side of the rear axle but again that seems to move freely based on what I saw when we dropped the rear.

 

I'd appreciate your advice on what to look at next.

thanks 

Mark

 

 

 

 

thanks 

 

Mark

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Electra63 (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

Assuming you have done your due diligence regarding possibilities, install a shim under the spring in question, that's what the factory did.

Tom Mooney

[gungeey]

Your picture (1st post) shows bumper misaligned a bit. Is there frame damage under there ?

 

Are the body mounts rotted out?

 

Does the car drive straight? Tires look to have even wear?

 

Grab the back bumper and get the car swinging left to right in a strong rhythm and pay attention for shifting/scraping

 

 

[60FlatTop]

I my February 1st post I wrote about freeing up the inner sleeve of the suspension bushings. I consider that an important part of any jobs that swing the arms beyond their normal angles.

 

Twisting a 50+ year old one of these needs all the help it can get.

[Electra63]

9 hours ago, gungeey said:

Your picture (1st post) shows bumper misaligned a bit. Is there frame damage under there ?

 

Are the body mounts rotted out?

 

Does the car drive straight? Tires look to have even wear?

 

Grab the back bumper and get the car swinging left to right in a strong rhythm and pay attention for shifting/scraping

 

 

Thanksthere is no apparent damage to the frame anywhere under the rear end 

The body mounts are not great but still there.  Left and right side mounts look pretty much similar in terms of height.  Nothing major there. 

 

The car drives perfectly straight.  As for tire wear it's too early to say as I only bought it 6-7 months ago and the tires were quite new and look ok so far. 

 

The rear track bar and shocks were replaced and swinging left to right it makes no odd noises at all.  In a way I wish it did... It might give me something specific to look at 

 

[Electra63]

10 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I my February 1st post I wrote about freeing up the inner sleeve of the suspension bushings. I consider that an important part of any jobs that swing the arms beyond their normal angles.

 

Twisting a 50+ year old one of these needs all the help it can get.

Thanks.  I'll look into this in more detail.  Everything seems to move freely even when we dropped the rear axle but it's definitely worth a closer look.  Left to right there is a difference in the clearance where the rear bushings on the lower control/trailing arm attach to the axle.  See photos.  The bracket on the right side (second photo) seems to have been hit and bent slightly towards the arm v the left (first photo)  

Edited February 21, 2023 by Electra63 (see edit history)

[Electra63]

Update. First thanks to everyone who has posted their suggestions and advice.

 

I think I may be zeroing in on the source of the issue.  Maybe a little early as I just finished measuring around the front end but here is what I found.

 

As Tom T said i think it could be the front right spring or certainly a mis match between the two sides on the front.

 

After carrying out various measurements I checked the manual as per the dimensions in the table 7-17.

 

The passenger side is roughly 1/2" higher than the driver side.  The driver side is closest to the factory dimensions given in the table. 

I know the passenger side front spring is not exactly oriented per the manual but perhaps it also has a shim on it that it doesn't need.  Either way I think I'll have to remove the springs and check the whole setup.

I think I'll also remove the stabilizer bar and  links and renew them as the bushings on the link appear old and may not be allowing the stabilizer bar to move freely.

 

If Tom T or anyone else has hints or tips on how to deal with removing the front springs I'd appreciate your advice

 

Thanks 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Electra63 (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

If you have never done one, you really need a Shop Manual for that car. Not complicated, just need to know what you are doing for safety. I have never done a ball joint suspension, so will not advise you. Does not look to difficult.

 

  Ben

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Put the car on jack stands, locate them on frame as far away from a- arms as you can get them and still be safe. Put your floor jack under the lower a- arm and lift the a-arm up to about half its travel. Separate the upper ball joint from the spindle mount using a big effing hammer and ball joint tool . Once separated, lower the floor jack , remove coil springs. If you are not confident about doing this, i would advise you to pay someone that has done it before. I have seen people get hurt tackling this job. I would change front coils all the time when i was a teen, messing with the hydraulics on my 67 rivi. Was never a job i looked forward to doing. Good luck

[Electra63]

2 hours ago, arnulfo de l.a. said:

Put the car on jack stands, locate them on frame as far away from a- arms as you can get them and still be safe. Put your floor jack under the lower a- arm and lift the a-arm up to about half its travel. Separate the upper ball joint from the spindle mount using a big effing hammer and ball joint tool . Once separated, lower the floor jack , remove coil springs. If you are not confident about doing this, i would advise you to pay someone that has done it before. I have seen people get hurt tackling this job. I would change front coils all the time when i was a teen, messing with the hydraulics on my 67 rivi. Was never a job i looked forward to doing. Good luck

OK thanks for the advice.  I'll ask my son for his availability to help.  He has done plenty of his own car work but not sure he has removed front springs like these .

If in any doubt I'll take it to a shop 

[Electra63]

16 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

If you have never done one, you really need a Shop Manual for that car. Not complicated, just need to know what you are doing for safety. I have never done a ball joint suspension, so will not advise you. Does not look to difficult.

 

  Ben

Thanks.  I have a shop manual and have read through the procedure.  It's tricky to assess the level of difficulty but I did note the safety warnings obviously due to spring energy etc.  Hence I'm cautious about it

[60FlatTop]

Spin the ball joint nut back on with 3/8-1/4" gap while you are separating the taper. It will give you a little safety when it pops.

[telriv]

Last year, 1st. time ever, separated the lower then upper ball joint. Had the upper nut unthreaded about 3 turns. Never had this happen before. 

When the lower B/J popped the threads of the upper B/J nut stripped clean. Came close to losing a finger.

Now I back the upper nut off, but not so much that I can't get a cotter pin in there to keep the nut from stripping.

Just a caution.

 

Tom T.

[Electra63]

1 hour ago, telriv said:

Last year, 1st. time ever, separated the lower then upper ball joint. Had the upper nut unthreaded about 3 turns. Never had this happen before. 

When the lower B/J popped the threads of the upper B/J nut stripped clean. Came close to losing a finger.

Now I back the upper nut off, but not so much that I can't get a cotter pin in there to keep the nut from stripping.

Just a caution.

 

Tom T.

Wow !  thanks for that.  Point noted

[60FlatTop]

Inspect newer hardware closely. I have purchased recent ball joints with the nut so poorly machined I reused the old nut and threw the new one away. If you are working on a car that was repaired by others, a shop, they may not have looked that close.

 

I will keep that cotter pin idea in mind and pass it on. Working with 60 year old parts is fairly safe. If replacing or working on new parts installed in the last 20 years expect the unexpected.

[RivNut]

Compress the spring using a floor jack under the A-arm then secure it with some spring compressor tools, then remove the spring as noted above. The spring will not have any stored energy in it, then you can safely decompress the spring.  No need to mess with stored kinetic energy. Chances are this tool cab be borrowed from your local jobber.

Edited March 14, 2023 by RivNut (see edit history)

[RivNut]

1 minute ago, RivNut said:

Oops

Edited March 14, 2023 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Electra63]

16 hours ago, RivNut said:

Compress the spring using a floor jack under the A-arm then secure it with some spring compressor tools, then remove the spring as noted above. The spring will not have any stored energy in it, then you can safely decompress the spring.  No need to mess with stored kinetic energy. Chances are this tool cab be borrowed from your local jobber.

Thanks.

My son has a pair of spring compressors like your photo.

However, it looks like the spring perch is up inside a 'top hat' shaped recess and not many spring coils are visible above the lower control arm.  Also the clearance between the OD of the springs and the body members/top hat section looks like it may not be adequate to get enough access around the outside to fit this style of compressor?.

I see the official Buick tool in the manual is a threaded rod with a plate and it fits down the center of the spring through the hole where the shock is attached at the top....so I have two additional questions:

1.  Anyone have experience of using the 'regular' spring compressors like in this photo and is there enough access to install and tighten them to compress the springs?

2.  Once the lower control arm is swung down the manual says the spring may need to be pried from its perch on the lower arm.   This is the part that was of concern to my son.  Anyone have experience of whether that can be a problem or not?

 

thanks !