BryanFJ1 Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Hello everyone! It's been a while So, today I tried to fix my temperature gauge readings with a new sending unit.To my surprise it still shows barely warm after the car has been running for an hour...So I am starting to think that there is this brass thingy where in my car sending unit goes to. Something tells me it's not the original part and coolant (in that thing) barely touches the unit, thus the reading is wrong. The second question I would like to ask you guys - is how to fix the horn? The fuse looks fine, the wiring to the horns looks fine BUT - the horn ring is wobbly and I just can't wrap my head around how to take it off. I have a picture from the maintenance book, but that just doesn't help. I tried to pray with a very thin knife - nothing. You can kinda see on the picture where i tried to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 I don't think your Lincoln had those pipe reducers on the temperature sending unit from the factory. That could create an air pocket which will cause erratic readings. The bulb on the sender needs to be in contact with coolant for an accurate reading. Remove the pipe reducers and nipples and screw the sender directly into the intake manifold coolant passage. I'd juice them up good with penetrating oil first. Won't hurt to do a good repair on that wire either. Also- make sure you have a sender for a gauge. A sending unit for a car with a warning light is different. Can't help on the horn, but you might try twisting the center cap a bit to release it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) Looks like the horn button #3623 has a clip on each side. Try prying from the side instead of the bottom. Then you can access the 4 screws for the horn ring. Edited January 12, 2023 by keiser31 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 15 minutes ago, rocketraider said: That could create an air pocket which will cause erratic readings. EGG XACTLY! That's what i am thinking of. 17 minutes ago, rocketraider said: and screw the sender directly into the intake manifold coolant passage. The problem is there is a threaded connection to these brass pipes. And the sending unit is threaded as well, so there is has to be something in between them, like a nut or something. Hopefully if the thread sizes are the same for both of them, maybe i can find a nut, that a can screw on manifold, and then, from another side i can screw on the sending unit. That might work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, keiser31 said: Looks like the horn button #3623 has a clip on each side. Try prying from the side instead of the bottom. The problem is i cant even pry on that thing, like i need to get hella thin awl or something. Feels like there is no way that thing is coming off at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Can you get a razor blade between the parts? Sometimes that will loosen up anything stuck between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 Somebody put hardware store pipe fittings on the sender. I think it screws directly into the manifold. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mman Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) The black edge arrow points to the TWO flat spring clips that clip into the horn ring to retain the center. One on each side As suggested a very thin tool wedged to move the center straight out from the ring is needed. Perhaps one thin tool on each side simultaneously. The yellow edge arrow pointing down is your problem This is the "spring" for the horn. However it is NOT a metal spring. It is a circular rubber ring. It is deteriorated and no longer pushes the horn ring outward. It must be replaced with another rubber ring. A thick closed cell type of rubber ring is needed. You cannot use any metal spring it works by being insulated between the ring and other metal parts. The yellow arrow pointing up is the 4 screws/bolts that hold the ring to the parts labeled as 13A 815. There are little insulating washers under each screw. DO NOT LOSE THEM!!! The horn ring is fully insulated UNTIL it is pressed and makes ground contact. After the horn ring middle is removed the entire steering wheel then must be removed to service everything. Edited January 13, 2023 by m-mman (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mman Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 7 hours ago, BryanFJ1 said: The problem is there is a threaded connection to these brass pipes. And the sending unit is threaded as well, so there is has to be something in between them, like a nut or something. Hopefully if the thread sizes are the same for both of them, maybe i can find a nut, that a can screw on manifold, and then, from another side i can screw on the sending unit. That might work... No. The threads are "Pipe Threads" (aka NPT) You car read more about them. Unless the manifold is cracked? otherwise damaged? The temp sender will screw directly into the manifold. Get rid all all that Home Depot plumbing junk. When the sender is screwed in, it will tighten as it is inserted. It needs no lock nut or other retainer. Read about the tapered aspects of National Pipe Thread (NPT) They are NOT threaded flush, They are screwed in "just enough" to seal. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlestown Mike Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 6 hours ago, m-mman said: No. The threads are "Pipe Threads" (aka NPT) You car read more about them. Unless the manifold is cracked? otherwise damaged? The temp sender will screw directly into the manifold. Get rid all all that Home Depot plumbing junk. When the sender is screwed in, it will tighten as it is inserted. It needs no lock nut or other retainer. Read about the tapered aspects of National Pipe Thread (NPT) They are NOT threaded flush, They are screwed in "just enough" to seal. Good point about the tapered pipe threads--as you say, just tighten them "enough". That raises another question---Usually, pipe threads require a sealant or Teflon tape to seal ( duh!), but the temperature sender needs to be grounded to the engine to work. I think such sealants must present a problem for the grounding of the sender and will probably contribute to an error in reading. Like others, I would suggest getting the proper sender and screwing it directly into the engine. It wouldn't hurt to repair the wiring connection, too. If you are in doubt as to the gauge readings, you could place the sender with a ground wire and the regular connection in a pan of water and heat it up. Use a thermometer to check the temperature of the water as you watch the dash board gauge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 13 hours ago, m-mman said: The black edge arrow points to the TWO flat spring clips that clip into the horn ring to retain the center. One on each side As suggested a very thin tool wedged to move the center straight out from the ring is needed. Perhaps one thin tool on each side simultaneously. The yellow edge arrow pointing down is your problem This is the "spring" for the horn. However it is NOT a metal spring. It is a circular rubber ring. It is deteriorated and no longer pushes the horn ring outward. It must be replaced with another rubber ring. A thick closed cell type of rubber ring is needed. You cannot use any metal spring it works by being insulated between the ring and other metal parts. The yellow arrow pointing up is the 4 screws/bolts that hold the ring to the parts labeled as 13A 815. There are little insulating washers under each screw. DO NOT LOSE THEM!!! The horn ring is fully insulated UNTIL it is pressed and makes ground contact. After the horn ring middle is removed the entire steering wheel then must be removed to service everything. Thank you! Very informative!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 12 hours ago, m-mman said: They are screwed in "just enough" to seal. Oh trust me, i have learned my lesson with this car snapping things by tightening things too much... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 Okay so just to show you guys what i am dealing here with i took these mumbo jumbo pipes off to take some pictures. I don't know does it makes any difference but manifold on this car is from 1963 model. On a second picture i just put sending unit on top of that tapered pipe that is connected to the manifold. And it doesn't look that the sending unit can be screwed into the manifold (If tapered pipe is not there) , it kinda looks too big... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 Looks like there is still a nipple in your manifold. However, from the photo it looks to be the wrong size for the sender, that is why all those plumbing parts were installed. See if you can find a gauge sender for the 63 model as it would seem that it used a different sized thread. I suspect that one could drill and tap that hole larger once that nipple is gone. Another idea, look around the manifold to see if there may be another port to the coolant that is the right size. Another trick to test the system, ground that sending wire and turn on the ignition, it should peg the needle. But I am with the rest here, that the sender is not submerged into the coolant with all that extra plumbing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mman Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) Original 63 Lincoln sending unit in original 63 Lincoln parts engine. you will need to use a vice grip to remove the brass nipple. Edited January 13, 2023 by m-mman (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 One of these might be easier than trying to get vise-grips in there. Internal pipe wrench. Again, juice that nipple good with penetrating oil and drain the cooling system below the level of the sender unit so the wrenches won't slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, JACK M said: But I am with the rest here, that the sender is not submerged into the coolant with all that extra plumbing. I can't wrap my head around WHY this was created in the first place? Like why would you need to make this plumber rocket science in the first place? Why the original sending unit couldn't be installed how it should be? I bet there is something with the manifold... Found this bad boy and it kinda looks more longer and thinner? I bet they changed the manifold from 1963 to 1960 and be like OOPS - The old sending unit is too big to get in 1963 manifold. "HOLD MY BEER, ILL BE BACK" (Goes to the plumbing store). Edited January 13, 2023 by BryanFJ1 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mman Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said: I can't wrap my head around WHY this was created in the first place? Like why would you need to make this plumber rocket science in the first place? Why the original sending unit couldn't be installed how it should be? THIS is why old car people prefer original untouched, unmolested cars. In most cases you will never figure out why they destroyed the car the way they did. The mantra around here is that it is always easier to put it back correctly. Sometimes that takes more time and parts, but then it remains fixed and is easier and cheaper in the long run. Edited January 13, 2023 by m-mman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 14, 2023 Author Share Posted January 14, 2023 42 minutes ago, m-mman said: THIS is why old car people prefer original untouched, unmolested cars. In most cases you will never figure out why they destroyed the car the way they did. The mantra around here is that it is always easier to put it back correctly. Sometimes that takes more time and parts, but then it remains fixed and is easier and cheaper in the long run. The only thing is scares me is to remove that nipple correctly. Hopefully these Internal Pipe Wrenches will do the job the right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 1 hour ago, BryanFJ1 said: I can't wrap my head around WHY this was created in the first place? Bryan, we're talking about a 63 year old car that previous owners and mechanics have done god knows what to it to keep it running over the years. Be glad you don't have a similar vintage Chevrolet, Ford or Plymouth, or any variation of musclecar. You would see some truly unbelievable things. The best we as preservationists can do is try to find the parts and knowledge to put it back like it was designed to be. All- does 1963 Lincoln have a temperature gauge? If it does, finding a correct 1963 sender unit can probably clear up this problem. ***edit*** For ~$25 I'd go for that ebay sender, unless you can find one at NAPA or similar. SMP should be Standard Motor Parts which is as good an aftermarket brand as you'll find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Zimmermann Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Did you check the thermostat? When the thermostat is defective and is staying open, you will have the same reading from the gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 That crossed my mind, but all those pipe fittings aren't helping. I think we need to get the gage working, see what it does and if it still reads low, then a new 180° thermostat. Friend tried to put an aftermarket fuel injection unit on a 68 442 in early 90s. Its function was tied to an accurate coolant temperature reading. The 68 intake had only one bung for the temperature sender and he rigged some pipe fittings to install the fi system sensor and keep the factory gauge working. As expected, it created an air pocket and neither the gauge nor the fi worked properly. Ended up having to change intakes to get an extra bung to mount the fi coolant temp sensor. Once both sensors were in contact with coolant, everything worked very nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 26, 2023 Author Share Posted January 26, 2023 Hi everyone! So i have finally received my new temperature sensor. There is a picture for a more clear understanding the size difference between 1960 and 1963 models. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 Yup. as long as it is for a gauge and not a light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 Were you able to get that pipe nipple out of the intake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 27, 2023 Author Share Posted January 27, 2023 On 1/26/2023 at 3:18 PM, rocketraider said: Were you able to get that pipe nipple out of the intake? Unfortunately not. The smallest internal pipe wrench i could find was 3/8 inches. It is exactly the same size as this nipple. So at this point i'm hoping that the vice grips can do this job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 Plenty of penetrating oil and hope the dissimilar metals haven't seized. If so, plan B. Use a propane torch to heat if necessary. Maybe melt some candle wax onto it where it threads in, in hopes the wax will wick into the threads and allow them to unscrew easily. Mm-hmm. Even a Linken isn't immune from Previous Owner's Stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 A little heat saves a lot of headaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mman Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 Skip the heat. Brass melts quickly and easily. Brass and iron do not react and the tightness is from the pipe threads not any rust. Use a tightly locked vice grips APPLIED IN THE PROPER DIRECTION. To gain the best access and prevent slipping the grips should be at a right angle to the nipple. My suggestion is to remove the distributor to allow clearance to attach and swing the grips. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 28, 2023 Author Share Posted January 28, 2023 16 hours ago, m-mman said: My suggestion is to remove the distributor to allow clearance to attach and swing the grips. Yeah i was thinking about it, cuz you'd need to grab it horizontal with enough space to twist it. Also there is one little thing that concerns me - i'm going to grab this brass thingy with the vice grips, the thingy trough the years and temperature become all weak - SNAP - and all the pieces are going to fall into the manifold. starting to floating around to the point it's going to jam the water pump 🙈 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 being brass it will come out easily and not corroded in im sure,use socket wherever possible so the part wont collapse even if you have to gain access Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 Did anyone think that with those pipe fitting between the intake and sending unit, air could be trapped and the coolant never touches the sending unit, thus it does not get hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted January 28, 2023 Author Share Posted January 28, 2023 4 minutes ago, Barney Eaton said: Did anyone think that with those pipe fitting between the intake and sending unit, air could be trapped and the coolant never touches the sending unit, thus it does not get hot. ROCKET CSIENCE LLC (1992) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mman Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 (edited) On 1/28/2023 at 8:43 AM, BryanFJ1 said: i'm going to grab this brass thingy with the vice grips, the thingy trough the years and temperature become all weak - SNAP - and all the pieces are going to fall into the manifold. starting to floating around to the point it's going to jam the water pump 🙈 Little chance of the brass shattering. 1. brass is soft (compared to iron) you will discover that the vice grips will leave bite marks in the threads 2. IF something breaks, the pieces don’t go into the water pump. You have the coolant drained and if by chance something falls in the hole and you can’t grab it, you remove the thermostat housing and reach in. The temp sensor hole is just above that space. 3. I doubt that the 63 engine/manifold has been installed or operating long enough for serious alterations in metallic structure to occur. Edited January 30, 2023 by m-mman (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 On 1/28/2023 at 12:06 PM, Barney Eaton said: Did anyone think that with those pipe fitting between the intake and sending unit, air could be trapped and the coolant never touches the sending unit, thus it does not get hot. A couple of folks in this thread picked up on it. Whoever engineered that setup obviously didn't!🙃 Maybe Bryan should put those pictures in the hack work thread, since if that ain't hack work, nothing is! "Ooom, Ahon't know whah them Linken fokes made thet hole littler then thisheah piece Ah got offen thet Fowcom down to the junkyard. Iffen hit's offen anudda Fode hit oughten to fit!" Yes, I have known people like that. Redneck Einsteins as they are. Parts is parts. Make it work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BryanFJ1 Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 Small victory today. This thing didn't want to come out at all. But the funny thing is - it started to coming out when i grabbed it with vice grips from the top and turned it with the corners of vice grips. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticbuicks Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 looks like you might have bumped your distributor cap out of place doing work in pic,might want to check before starting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 I hesitated replying to this thread for obvious reasons, as will be shown. There is always a bit of talk about how someone in the past has butchered these collector cars by doing something like the plumber's fix above. "The mechanic should have known better than to do that!!" Maybe, just maybe the person who fixed the Lincoln in that manner considered it to be merely a used car that he needed to keep on the road. And, maybe, the correct sender was not available at the time of the repair. Now the mechanic is faced with a decision - fix it the best way I can or leave the car in the garage until it can be fixed properly, according to today's standards. Come on, guys, it's just a car... Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-mman Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, oldford said: I hesitated replying to this thread for obvious reasons, as will be shown. There is always a bit of talk about how someone in the past has butchered these collector cars by doing something like the plumber's fix above. "The mechanic should have known better than to do that!!" Maybe, just maybe the person who fixed the Lincoln in that manner considered it to be merely a used car that he needed to keep on the road. And, maybe, the correct sender was not available at the time of the repair. The car is a 1960 and has a 1963 intake manifold (maybe the entire engine?) The senders are different between 60 & 63. Who ever did the swap did not want to acquire the correct 63 sender. Instead they took the time and effort to rig up the plumbers fix using a bunch of adaptors. The senders are readily available. By not having the sender submerged in coolant it gives an inaccurate readings. (the original complaint) Make one change and likely there are many other changes that are needed. Whoever did the swap was lazy and choose to not perform the swap completely and accurately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 Looks MUCH better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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