1960 lincoln continental questions.

[BryanFJ1]

51 minutes ago, m-mman said:

should be removed and flipped over

That is what was on my mind when i was looking into it today.

Especially that back panel part. It's just going to be a nightmare putting this seal in there. 

Adhesive is going to be on the paint.. i'm probably going to scratch something, going to be a lot of swearing..

So yeah, trunk sits there on 4 bolts, so it SHOULD BE an easy job if i'm going to talk my room mate into this adventure.

(Also need to find some carpet or something to put that thing on upside down...)

[m-mman]

6 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

SHOULD BE an easy job

There are VERY FEW easy jobs on these Lincolns 

 

FYI make sure you get the correct seal (Lincoln land? Old Lincoln parts?) They are not that expensive. 

Do NOT buy some generic seal that "looks correct".  Seals and weatherstripping might all look the same but when it is installed you learn that the shape was designed and engineered for that location. 

Typically you place the cut ends at the front end of the lid so that you dont hit them or knock them loose when in use. 

[BryanFJ1]

3 minutes ago, m-mman said:

There are VERY FEW easy jobs on these Lincolns 

 

FYI make sure you get the correct seal (Lincoln land? Old Lincoln parts?) They are not that expensive. 

Do NOT buy some generic seal that "looks correct".  Seals and weatherstripping might all look the same but when it is installed you learn that the shape was designed and engineered for that location. 

Typically you place the cut ends at the front end of the lid so that you dont hit them or knock them loose when in use. 

Quick question - do i need to get C-clamps for this job? And maybe like put long wood planks between this new weather strip and C-clamp? 

Never done that before..

[rocketraider]

1 hour ago, BryanFJ1 said:

if i'm going to talk my room mate into this adventure.

I'd like to be there to watch you do that.🙂  Is yer housemate an adventurous type, up for a challenge? Or is he smart enough to run away when the Linken beckons?

 

Won't hurt to have a third man there. Somebody has to start the bolts back in while the other two hold the lid in place.

 

Make sure to put reference marks at the hinges so you can get it back where you started. Also plenty of padding to put between the decklid and the car body while you're wrangling it. Old towels work well.

 

When we pulled the hood off my Toronado there were five of us. 

[m-mman]

1 hour ago, BryanFJ1 said:

Quick question - do i need to get C-clamps for this job?

Uhhhh. . . No.   

The seal comes in a coil you straighten it out and FIGURE OUT WHICH SIDE GLUES TO THE METAL (not always obvious)

Lay down 12"-18" of 3M weatherstrip adhesive (yellow or black your choice, use nothing else)

Line up and press the rubber into the adhesive. Then straighten out the seal another 2 feet or so, lay down another 12"-18" of adhesive. Repeat.  Carefully guiding the seal around the corners. They aren't sharp BUT the seal can twist as you go around them. 

Applying masking tape (or the blue tape) will hold the seal in place long enough for the adhesive to set. If the seal starts to get too twisted, stop and let the adhesive set a while before continuing.

 

Reminder: Start and end the seal at a location that is not going to be disturbed much. 

 

The real challenge?  Getting the decklid properly adjusted again.

Your closed car is MUCH EASIER than a convertible, but allow an hour for adjusting, readjusting and adjusting some more. 

 

Expect this to be an all day project. 

[BryanFJ1]

13 hours ago, rocketraider said:

hold the lid in place

I wonder how much does that thing is weight...

13 hours ago, m-mman said:

Expect this to be an all day project.

Yeah, i expect nothing less 🙈

[m-mman]

4 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

wonder how much does that thing does weigh...

Two people can lift it. It is bulky but not excessively heavy. 

 

The big issue is needing three hands (or people?). Two to lift and carry and one to work the socket removing and installing the bolts. 

I have done it with two (both hoods and trunks). You stand at the side, balance it on your shoulder, use one hand to grab and hold and lift the lower edge, then you have one hand free to work the ratchet. 

Not easy, best if your are taller, but it is possible. 

[BryanFJ1]

22 minutes ago, m-mman said:

. 

Not easy, best if your are taller, but it is possible. 

Thank you! 

Since it's a general questions topic, and i don't want to create another topic related to another question, i'll just ask it here.

So when i just got the car, tranny dipstick was all dry, so just to make sure everything is working i refilled it with Type F tranny fluid.

It's still leaking some fluid, so i got new pan gasket and metal filter to check what's going on there...

At this moment dipstick showing that it's like half quarter less till full.

And since i am driving it more now, i have noticed that tranny acting "funny".

So when i putting D1 (I guess this is main gear from driving the car low speeds?), sometimes it's working just fine -

But sometimes i'm pressing on the gas, engine revving but car is not accelerating... But when the RPMs drops almost to idle, it picks up the gear and starting to accelerate (People in traffic doesn't love when that happens). 

So i have these questions:

1. If i used Type F, should i refill it with Type F, or i need to flush everything and put Dextron III? Since maybe "they" might used Dextron III and i put Type F, which you can't mix? 
2. Maybe there is something with the linkage? Like maybe when im putting it on D1 but the linkage actually setting gear between D1 and D2 on tranny, thus it's like between two things and acting funny? 

 

[m-mman]

 

1 hour ago, BryanFJ1 said:

So when i putting D1 (I guess this is main gear from driving the car low speeds?), sometimes it's working just fine -

But sometimes i'm pressing on the gas, engine revving but car is not accelerating... But when the RPMs drops almost to idle, it picks up the gear and starting to accelerate (People in traffic doesn't love when that happens). 

 

 D1 starts in first gear. D2 starts in second gear.  Always start in D1.  (D2 was for sand and slippery roads. . . . ) 

 

The fluid you added is very unlikely the problem.   The problem is most likely that your car has been sitting. 

 

Adjust the selector linkage?? Sure! why not. Is it going to fix the symptoms you describe? Unlikely.  However, new rubber bushings in the linkage can reduce the sloppiness. 

 

But DO make sure that you adjust the THROTTLE VALVE linkage (aka "kickdown") This extra rod is much more than a kickdown. It regulates the pressures inside the transmission. (later changed to a vacuum modulator)  I suspect that you are having pressure issues in the transmission. But I still dont think that this will cure your problem. 

 

Remove the pan, drain the converter? refill with new fluid?  Not a bad idea. MIGHT work to alleviate the symptoms you describe. 

 

The main problem?? I suspect that there is gum and varnish in the transmission that is not allowing the many valves to open & close against their springs.

You might also have some hardened O rings too. 

 

After the (complete) fluid change and then giving it enough operation time (warm up, shift through all the ranges, cool down, repeat) MIGHT clear the varnish and free up the sticky valves(?)  New fluid might also soften the O rings(?)

 

Then after draining and refilling, and operating, if the problem continues. . . . . ?

Its time for a removal and rebuild.  The only way to get it really clean inside. AND you get new clutches, bands and rubber O-rings which are probably marginal too. 

 

Been there and done that on my 1959  😥

 

[BryanFJ1]

2 hours ago, m-mman said:

Its time for a removal and rebuild.

I really hope i won't need to go for that (for now). 

But the one of question is still up in the air - what tranny fluid should be used? 

Classic Type F or Dexron III? 

 

2 hours ago, m-mman said:

But DO make sure that you adjust the THROTTLE VALVE linkage (aka "kickdown") This extra rod is much more than a kickdown. It regulates the pressures inside the transmission.

Hopefully this "new" manual book will have some information about that there. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by BryanFJ1 (see edit history)

[61polara]

Definitely Type F

[rocketraider]

I thought F didn't show up till mid-60s? Would it be appropriate for a 1960 transmission?

[BryanFJ1]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:18 PM, 61polara said:

Definitely Type F

Is there any good additive to the transmission fluids for a 1960 and older models? 

There is some fluids like Lubegard Automatic Transmission Fluid Protectant - but this one precisely can't be used with type F.

There is Lucas Transmission Fix Stops Slip, which is in description says "Type: Type F", which should help a little with the performance? 

 

 

[61polara]

57 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

Is there any good additive to the transmission fluids for a 1960 and older models? 

There is some fluids like Lubegard Automatic Transmission Fluid Protectant - but this one precisely can't be used with type F.

There is Lucas Transmission Fix Stops Slip, which is in description says "Type: Type F", which should help a little with the performance? 

 

 

Just stay with straight transmission fluid.  The additives aren't needed.

[pfloro]

On 3/6/2023 at 10:45 AM, BryanFJ1 said:

But sometimes i'm pressing on the gas, engine revving but car is not accelerating... But when the RPMs drops almost to idle, it picks up the gear and starting to accelerate (People in traffic doesn't love when that happens). 

 

With my auto trans experience, I feel you are looking at a rebuild of your C6 transmission.  

 

Regardless of what forward "gear" position you select, the forward clutch is "applied".  The internal seals within this multiple disk clutch are leaking and/or the "frictions" are worn out.  Hydraulic pressure is sometimes leaking past the seals which is causing

the clutch to "slip" (engine RPMs increase without forward motion).   Slipping may be occurring even after the car is up to speed.  "Stop Slip" fluid additives will swell the seals but even it this works, it's only a temporary fix.

 

The throttle linkage adjustment does come into play but even if maladjusted, you should not experience forward clutch slippage from a standstill.

 

m-mman is right on target with his thoughts on this situation.

 

Paul

Edited March 11, 2023 by pfloro (see edit history)

[m-mman]

Not a C6.  1960 Lincolns use a large case Cruise O Matic.  Kinda an FMX. 

[pfloro]

17 minutes ago, m-mman said:

Not a C6.  1960 Lincolns use a large case Cruise O Matic.  Kinda an FMX. 

Thanks for correcting... It was an assumption on my part.

Do you think a rebuild is still where the OP should be headed...?

[Rivguy]

The '63 came with the four barrel carb, maybe the swap was done for that reason? I agree with oldford, if I need the car fixed to go to work on Monday morning, I'm going to do what's expedient.  Besides, who's gonna want this big ugly thing in the future?  ( No offense intended, it was just an old out of fashion car at one time, just like my Boat Tail Riviera or '56 Cadillac.) 

[m-mman]

24 minutes ago, pfloro said:

Do you think a rebuild is still where the OP should be headed?

Yes. I believe that is going to be the final solution, and if money were no object it’s where I would start. 
 

However there is a limited budget for this project, so ya start with the basic simple stuff first.  

[BryanFJ1]

38 minutes ago, m-mman said:

so ya start with the basic simple stuff first.  

Yeah i think i'll try to see what's what with that fluid inside, what's up with the filter.

Maybe try some stop slip additive as pfloro mentioned before - and see from there further behavior.

If it is still funny, then yes THERE GOES TRANY... 

 

 

 

[rocketraider]

Bryan, how long did this car sit unused before you got it?

 

I'd try a fluid and filter service first, in hopes that if anything's varnished and sticking the fresh fluid might clean it up. Then a second fluid and filter service in a couple thousand miles.

 

There is always a possibility that an old gummed up transmission may not work again after a fluid and filter service. But it's worth a try.

[m-mman]

Just an FYI, you might not be able to get a new filter. The car should have the large case transmission and that filter is unique and has typically been unavailable. 
IIRC the filter is just a fine mesh screen so you would wash and clean and reinstall.  

[BryanFJ1]

17 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Bryan, how long did this car sit unused before you got it?

 

I'd try a fluid and filter service first, in hopes that if anything's varnished and sticking the fresh fluid might clean it up. Then a second fluid and filter service in a couple thousand miles.

 

There is always a possibility that an old gummed up transmission may not work again after a fluid and filter service. But it's worth a try.

It was sitting there for 30 years. 

Dipstick was dry when i checked it, so i added like 3-4 quarts of Type F fluid. 

So yeah, i think it's time to change it..

10 hours ago, m-mman said:

the filter is just a fine mesh screen

I think i got the right one. The only thing is concerning is the shape of the gasket but i think it should be correct one.

Though i don't think my kit had these rubber rings in it....

[m-mman]

12 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

I think i got the right one. The only thing is concerning is the shape of the gasket

After I posted I looked at the Rock auto site.  Small case, Medium case, Large case. . . . . 

The listings were not detailed or specific. Some seemed outright wrong. 

 

In your case you might end up disassembling it and having to bring your pan (and filter) to a parts house AND MATCH IT UP to get the right part.  

[pfloro]

When you pull the pan and drain the old fluid, pay attention to the color and smell of it.  If it smells burnt, that means the clutches have been slipping for awhile. Regardless of smell, the color will most likely be merky and dark red.  I don't know the color of fresh type "F", so the color may be less important.  Also..., drain the pan but don't wipe it clean before taking some close up pictures of what you see laying at the bottom.  Those particles have a story to tell...

 

Paul

[BryanFJ1]

27 minutes ago, pfloro said:

When you pull the pan and drain the old fluid, pay attention to the color and smell of it.  If it smells burnt, that means the clutches have been slipping for awhile. Regardless of smell, the color will most likely be merky and dark red.  I don't know the color of fresh type "F", so the color may be less important.  Also..., drain the pan but don't wipe it clean before taking some close up pictures of what you see laying at the bottom.  Those particles have a story to tell...

 

Paul

Yeah, i had a thought abut getting my magnet in that fluid after flushing it..

 

I have few questions actually - where is the drain plug for torque converter located? Is is just one or two? (My manual book hasn't arrived yet).

What is the fluid capacity for the TC and pan flushed? Is it 12 quarts to refill it? 

Edited March 12, 2023 by BryanFJ1 (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

3 hours ago, m-mman said:

In your case you might end up disassembling it and having to bring your pan (and filter) to a parts house AND MATCH IT UP to get the right part.  

Be prepared for dumb looks... like you just got off the bus from Mars.

 

Check with Fatsco, David Edwards or Northwest Transmission. They specialize in older automatics. You may have to get some identifying numbers off your transmission but they'll know how to positively identify your transmission and get the right parts.

[pfloro]

4 hours ago, BryanFJ1 said:

Yeah, i had a thought abut getting my magnet in that fluid after flushing it..

 

I have few questions actually - where is the drain plug for torque converter located? Is is just one or two? (My manual book hasn't arrived yet).

What is the fluid capacity for the TC and pan flushed? Is it 12 quarts to refill it?

I can't help with the capacity of your unit or TC drain plug(s). Not all transmissions have TC drains. Hopefully your's has one. If it's like the Chrysler Torque-Flite in my '73 Plymouth, access is provided by a removable cover at the bottom front of the bell housing.  The lower section of the TC will be visible. The trick is having someone bump the starter (coil disconnected...!) until the plug "comes around" to the bottom...! 

 

Regarding using a magnet to fish through the fluid:  unless you have broken bits of planetary gears or very serious problems, what you will see in the pan will probably not be ferrous.  I don't think the friction material (clutches & bands), or the bushings, thrust washers, etc. contain iron or steel.  I'm not an AT expert so others will know more.  However, what is  in the pan is still important...

 

Keep at it...

 

Paul

Edited March 12, 2023 by pfloro (see edit history)

[BryanFJ1]

Alriiiiight, im back from the field...

Took off the pan, inside the pan were little shiny metal pieces, but i think no one ever took it off before, so it's probably a lifetime gear wear, which i think should be bearable.

Oil was pretty dark, but it wasn't like dark dark. Smells like it wasn't really burnt, smelled like an old oil...

The new gasket and filter were wrong (Wow what a surprise...), so i just cleaned the old filter and went to get some gasket maker (for now).

So at this point the gasket maker is drying out and tomorrow we will see if i put it correctly and hopefully nothing is going to leak...

 

[avgwarhawk]

The trans fluid looks good. 

[rocketraider]

Inside of transmission looks good too.

 

One thing I see on the pan. Looks like someone has snugged down tight on the bolts and deformed the gasket surface a little.

 

Find yourself a piece of flat wood, like a 1x4, and use that and a flat-faced hammer to flatten the pan at the bolts. 1x4 on the bottom side and hammer the raised areas flat. Will reduce the chances of a pan gasket leak.

 

Bryan, do you own a torque wrench? If not just torque the pan bolts snugly and evenly. Start at the corners, then tighten every other bolt, going around the pan twice till they're all snug.

[BryanFJ1]

1 hour ago, rocketraider said:

Bryan, do you own a torque wrench? If not just torque the pan bolts snugly and evenly. Start at the corners, then tighten every other bolt, going around the pan twice till they're all snug.

 

I have one, but the lowest torque specs are like 50? I think for the tranny pan is the same as the valve cover, so it's should be like 25 pounds, which shouldn't be too tight - i trust my hand on that lol. 

Also, yeah, criss-cross pattern tightening and all that 😜

1 hour ago, rocketraider said:

piece of flat wood

Well i just did as a gasket maker suggested - just got pan back in place (was very surprised when dip stick tube went right in where it should go without smudging the gasket maker all over the place), put all the bolts back in place and just tightened it with my hands for a 24 hours drying. 

So I DO REALLY HOPE everything will be tip top 

[BryanFJ1]

(JUST AN INTERESTING OBERVATION FROM THE INTERNET) 

Of how you can keep the brake switch thingy if you are changing the treadle vac to a more modern MC with front disc brakes... 

I was reading that you will have to make an electric switch somewhere at the brake pedal to make it work with new MC, but apparently there is a VERY EASY way to avoid that! 

 

[pfloro]

Bryan,

 

Were you able to drain the torque converter...?

The deposits in the pan look quite "normal" so hopefully, the fresh fluid will have her shifting properly once again...!

 

Paul

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by pfloro (see edit history)

[m-mman]

1 hour ago, BryanFJ1 said:

but apparently there is a VERY EASY way to avoid that! 

Yes, the easiest way it to just keep things original.  

 

Modifications. . . . ? Uhhhh. . . . yeah . . .

PERHAPS somehow modifications MIGHT make an old car "better". . . . . BUT and it is a big but, EVERY MODIFICATION COMES AT A COST.

 

Not just money, (people who make modifications rarely discuss the actual costs) but time and aggravation. 

 

Fact: you cannot make any changes to an old car without having to change something else. An old car is a system, make a change one place and something else will also need modification.  There are people who are very creative and really enjoy reengineering an old car. Changes, leading to changes, leading to changes are their enjoyment. Then after they have finished all their changes they typically sell the car and go on to something else. For most of these people it is all about "the build" not about keeping it and enjoying it.  

 

This commonly translates to "I just bought a car that the prior owner modified and I am having trouble with. . . . " 

or

"The prior owner changed XXXX and now XXXX doesn't work properly"

 

Auto companies spent millions of dollars and thousands of engineering hours proving their cars. Designing them to function well IN ALL CONDITIONS. 

99% of modifications are done to make an old car do ONE thing better. Typically that's go faster. . . . aka racing. 

Well ask any serious racer and they will tell you that a true race car needs to be balanced and thoroughly engineered for that job.  Very few old cars are "go fast" cars. (e.g. 60s muscle cars) They were made to be street cars. Quiet comfortable street cars.  Modify a quiet comfortable car into a "go fast" car and you will have neither a racer or a street car. You have a mess. 

 

The picture you posted is an example of this. This is an UNSAFE mess of a modification done by a person who has no idea of how to actually repair a car but is just making a change "because he saw somebody else do it"

 

What you are looking at is a modern (made in China?) power booster that is operating a dual master cylinder. 

1. My highly regarded power brake booster shop tells me at after almost every major auction he get people (new owners) sending him these cheaply made boosters (removed from cars they just bought) to rebuild because they are broken.

Fact: the original boosters may need rebuilding (they are 50+ years old) but when properly repaired they are worlds better than these poorly made replacements. 

 

2. <YIKES!>  The guy tried to install a dual master cylinder.

Dual master cylinders came out in the mid-late 60s. Effectively they are two master cylinders in one. The idea is that if you have a leak in the system somewhere (maybe the front brake hose - all the fluid is lost) You will then have a second master (working the rear wheels) to stop the car. When working properly the idea was that the dual master cylinder will give you ONE STOP then you need to call a tow truck. Dual or single master cylinder if you have any brake failure, you stop, proceed no further and call a tow truck. 

 

OK so MAYBE a dual master cylinder is somehow better(?) The problem is that this knucklehead has plugged up one half of the system!!!  This Bozo might THINK that is car is somehow safer but in fact it is LESS SAFE!

His brakes are working with less fluid in reserve than it had originally. He does NOT have a dual master, he has rigged up a smaller single master cylinder.  Now couple that with the fact that he has used the original hydraulic brake light switch.  (Most likely he knows even less about auto wiring than he does auto brakes)

Hydraulic brake light switches fail in two ways. 1. they just stop making electrical contact. You lose your brake lights. 2. The plastic breaks and they spray out brake fluid! (this is rare but it has happened to me) 

 

So he has successfully spent time and money making his car LESS SAFE.  Real smart. . . . . 

If he REALLY wanted maximum safety he needs (to sort out the hydraulics) and then add a mechanical brake light switch to the pedal linkage. it isn't that difficult. Especially if you think modifying an old car is the right thing to do.

 

Here at the AACA forum we really prefer stock vehicles, restored just the way the manufactures made them. 

We know their limitations. We dont try to make them into something that they were never suppose to be.  

In the end, that is the cheapest and easiest way to enjoy an old car. 

[BryanFJ1]

1 hour ago, pfloro said:

Were you able to drain the torque converter...?

Unfortunately not. I couldn't find any plugs that could be located under the transmission, so i think they might be in the front wall? 

I didn't had good clearance today to take a look there, plus i cut my fingers couple of times pretty bad (These darn pan outside edges are sharp as a knife!), so i was done for today. 

I'll try to inspect these plugs tomorrow when i'm going to finish the pan job. 

 

I am actually really concerned about putting this 24 oz bottle of Lucas Oil Transmission Fix into the pan. 

The reason that i am concerned is - viscosity. It like very very thick and i am not sure if that paper towel looking filter is going to let it trough itself very easily. I mean, it will be mixed with the new type F, but still... 

 

[BryanFJ1]

1 hour ago, m-mman said:

The problem is that this knucklehead has plugged up one half of the system!!!

Ayyyyy lmao i haven't noticed that!

I noticed that there is only one brake line (That's where i thought WOW THAT'S LOOKS EASY, since there is usually two).

I heard the stories about treadle vacs are not really good in terms of engineering and they can go out while you are driving...

I had to rebuild it twice, actually. So far it's working.  

[Roger Zimmermann]

By looking at your pictures, I doubt that the transmission was never opened, the valve body is too clean. Sure, it's upside down, but after 60 years of use, there is always some dirt attached to it.

 

[old car fan]

Do not use any transmission fix,snake oil.Trans is either  good,our not.

[61polara]

11 hours ago, BryanFJ1 said:

I heard the stories about treadle vacs are not really good in terms of engineering and they can go out while you are driving...

I had to rebuild it twice, actually. So far it's working.  

The treadle vacs were used by a lot of car brands in the 1950's and early 1960's.  They're not my favorite power brake system, but they do work well.  There are two major areas of failure in these units.  If the seal between the vacuum unit and the master cylinder fluid side fail, it can suck brake fluid out of the master cylinder.  This is what causes sudden brake failure while driving on these units.  However, this is a slow process to suck out all the brake fluid.  Regularly checking the fluid level will warn you of a problem in plenty of time to prevent a total loss of brakes while driving.  Just consider it a normal fluid check, just like checking your oil, coolant and transmission fluid.  The other common failure of these units is due to periods of inactivity.  The compensating port is open when the brake pedal is released and closes when the brake pedal is pressed.  The compensating port must close to build pressure in the system.  When these cars sit for an extended period of time the compensating port will stick in the open position.  You get in the car, and there are no brakes.  To prevent this, get in the car at least every few weeks and pump the brake pedal a few times to keep this valve moving.  Should this valve stick, you can free it by putting your finger down in the master cylinder reservoir with someone pushing on the brake pedal and feel the top of the valve and free it.  This will get you brakes, but I would replace the compensating valve after this.  I've never seen this happen while driving the car, only at the first startup after storage.

 

Your Lincoln has big drum brakes, designed to stop the car.  In a disc conversion, you don't know what engineering went into the kit other than it will bolt up, but nothing about the performance of the system in that heavy car.  With a single master cylinder, just keep watch on the fluid level and find any cause of the fluid level dropping.  Also, keep your emergency brake in good operating order; this is your backup braking system.  Drum brakes drive a little different, especially on long downhill grades.   You want to apply and release the brakes for cooling rather than riding them down the mountain.  Also use engine braking by putting the transmission in second or even low to slow down on long or steep grades.  Your drums will work fine as long as you adjust your driving to work with the drums.