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1960 lincoln continental questions.


BryanFJ1

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8 hours ago, old car fan said:

Do not use any transmission fix,snake oil.

Well, it's not considered as a snake oil, it think it's considered as a better performance solution? 

It just if there was this new type metal filter, i would put it in to try and see the results.

With this old mesh filter i am just afraid it can gumm it up... 

Maybe i can try to mix this Lucas tranny oil with few quarts of Type F together before putting it in and see how thin it will become? 

On the bright side, Lucas products are have very good reputation on the market isn't it? 

 

 

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Excellent advice given by 61polara...  

 

I learned more about the treadle vac system...!

 

Drum brakes are not evil.  As mentioned, you just have to understand their strengths and weaknesses...  My '84 Toronado had standard 4 wheel disk brakes. The rear brakes were never good. Eventially, I converted the rear disk brakes to drum.  Not only did the car stop SO much better, but I never had any problems again...

 

Paul

Edited by pfloro (see edit history)
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42 minutes ago, pfloro said:

Excellent advice given by 61polara...  

 

I learned more about the treadle vac system...!

 

Drum brakes are not evil.  As mentioned, you just have to understand their strengths and weaknesses...  My '84 Toronado had standard 4 wheel disk brakes. The rear brakes were never good. Eventially, I converted the rear disk brakes to drum.  Not only did the car stop SO much better, but I never had any problems again...

 

Paul

Rear disc/caliper brakes that GM put out in the 80's were horrible. 

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1 hour ago, BryanFJ1 said:

Well, it's not considered as a snake oil, it think it's considered as a better performance solution? 

It just if there was this new type metal filter, i would put it in to try and see the results.

With this old mesh filter i am just afraid it can gumm it up... 

Maybe i can try to mix this Lucas tranny oil with few quarts of Type F together before putting it in and see how thin it will become? 

On the bright side, Lucas products are have very good reputation on the market isn't it? 

 

 

 

Dynaflow needs a bit of Lucas Transmission Stop Slip.  Today's Mercon is thinner than the transmission fluid from the 50's.  Sometimes snake oil is what is needed. :) 

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1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

Dynaflow needs a bit of Lucas Transmission Stop Slip.  Today's Mercon is thinner than the transmission fluid from the 50's.  Sometimes snake oil is what is needed. :) 

So i took plastic bottle, put like 25% of Lucas and rest filled up with Type F. At first you could see the blob but after i shake it a little it was gone.

Then i tried what is in the bottle with my fingers on left hand and on my right hand with basic Type F (I know, this is not how you check the viscosity lol), but that was enough for me to feel what kind of that mixture is, so i think it will be just fine.

 

Put everything in the car, started it, start shifting gears, was sitting there shifting for a while and went for a ride.

I can tell right from the start car is picking up the acceleration way better, but still when i floor it - it slips at pretty high RPMs. 

But at this point acceleration is good enough to not make everyone mad in traffic. 

So maybe it needs some time to get even better in a little while. 

 

 

Edited by BryanFJ1 (see edit history)
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7 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

So i took plastic bottle, put like 25% of Lucas and rest filled up with Type F. At first you could see the blob but after i shake it a little it was gone.

Then i tried what is in the bottle with my fingers on left hand and on my right hand with basic Type F (I know, this is not how you check the viscosity lol), but that was enough for me to feel what kind of that mixture is, so i think it will be just fine.

 

Put everything in the car, started it, start shifting gears, was sitting there shifting for a while and went for a ride.

I can tell right from the start car is picking up the acceleration way better, but still when i floor it - it slips at pretty high RPMs. 

But at this point acceleration is good enough to not make everyone mad in traffic. 

So maybe it needs some time to get even better in a little while. 

 

 

 

Now that you have driven it, recheck the transmission dipstick to assure it is full.   The transmission will need to be warm, engine started and LEFT IN PARK before pulling the transmission dipstick.    

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I have a 1957 Ford Skyliner that the transmission was slipping when you accelerated hard.  I thought I was going to have to pull it and have it rebuilt, but driving it has cleared it up.  Took a couple hundred miles to get it to accelerate properly.  Don't abuse it and it may come around.  Keep the fluid level up. 

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So, i am happy with the results! 😅

Took it for a ride around the town, and apparently either it Lucas oil, or its just new oil and cleaned filter - when you floor it, it's FLYING! 

Took it like maybe 15-20 minutes to get it back to normal, but now you really really flooring and its going FAAAAAAAAST now ahah! 

 

2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

recheck the transmission dipstick to assure it is full.

Just got home, double check the dipstick - its shows its FULL. 

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33 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

So, i am happy with the results! 😅

Took it for a ride around the town, and apparently either it Lucas oil, or its just new oil and cleaned filter - when you floor it, it's FLYING! 

Took it like maybe 15-20 minutes to get it back to normal, but now you really really flooring and its going FAAAAAAAAST now ahah! 

 

Just got home, double check the dipstick - its shows its FULL. 

Probably a combination of all you did and additive.  Transmissions. They work or they don't.  There is no in-between.   Glad it worked out. 

 

 

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

Rear disc/caliper brakes that GM put out in the 80's were horrible. 

The original ones in 70s were even worse. I found a 77 Eldorado with rear discs and thought, these will work on my 69 Toronado!🤩

 

Then I talked with the Olds Zone Service Manager and he quickly talked me out of that foolishness.

 

Modern stuff isn't always better for old cars, as the master cylinder mess picture shows.

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BEHOLD! THE BIBLE OF 1960 LINCOLN IS FINALLY HERE!

If there was only a book, i wouldn't write it here.

But it came all nice and tidy in the plastic bag, and behind the book was something else...

Some receipt dated from summer of 1999, and some catalog of Lincoln parts (And labor?).

Also some names on the front page with phone numbers of people who could perform some jobs on Lincolns. (carbs, water pumps?) 

I don't know if these people are still in business or even alive, but i just wanted to share it with you guys. Cuz maybe, just maybe...

Not sure if the catalog thing is still in business as well. 

But hey, look at these prices! 6 different things and only 33$! :D

 

image.png.e8bb18cfefb42c976e0c3008f799eb57.pngimage.png.03ccba9a74838bea5a7c3d0e111a970a.pngimage.png.093b9d886c750b3777161bc2847c7d56.pngimage.png.ecd5fa51e8474f225663f6d8fa22f217.png

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On 1/12/2023 at 10:45 PM, m-mman said:

The black edge arrow points to the TWO flat spring clips that clip into the horn ring to retain the center. One on each side 

As suggested a very thin tool wedged to move the center straight out from the ring is needed. Perhaps one thin tool on each side simultaneously. 

 

The yellow edge arrow pointing down is your problem This is the "spring" for the horn. However it is NOT a metal spring. It is a circular rubber ring. It is deteriorated and no longer pushes the horn ring outward.  It must be replaced with another rubber ring. A thick closed cell type of rubber ring is needed.  You cannot use any metal spring it works by being insulated between the ring and other metal parts. 

 

The yellow arrow pointing up is the 4 screws/bolts that hold the ring to the parts labeled as 13A 815. There are little insulating washers under each screw. DO NOT LOSE THEM!!!   The horn ring is fully insulated UNTIL it is pressed and makes ground contact. 

 

After the horn ring middle is removed the entire steering wheel then must be removed to service everything. 

 

60 horn ring.png

Have you actually done it like this before? Like i swear i was trying and trying and nothing was happening, i was afraid i am going to brake something...

But here is what the manual says. 

image.png.a420753107794ae4f5568319bc910163.png

 

Even though I TRIED to do that as well...

God i hope they didn't do anything stupid like putting glue or gasket maker inside of that thing... 

 

Edited by BryanFJ1 (see edit history)
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Small victory today. 

Hit the horn ring couple of times with plastic hammer.

Grabbed it very tight and tried turn it counterclockwise - and voilà, it finally came off. 

BUT 4 screws are not coming out, they are just twisting on spot, apparently you need to hold it both sides when screwing/unscrewing.

Removed steering wheel nut - it's not budging... The books says i need 3600-AA tool, which is supposedly is a "Ford Steering Wheel Remover".

But something tells me there these is ground strap is missing... I think i should see it without removing anything, right? 

(Orange circle is where it was touching the horn ring?) 

image.png.95f38f57035f7a095b65d5daa72be39c.png

 

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Steering wheel nut removed with an appropriate socket. 
Then you use a steering wheel puller. Generic will work.  Two bolts are screwed into the holes near the big nut. 
yes you need access to both sides of the wheel to remove the screws. 
BEWARE those things are NOT just washers! They are irreplaceable insulators.  Don’t lose them. 

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51 minutes ago, m-mman said:

Steering wheel nut removed with an appropriate socket. 
Then you use a steering wheel puller. Generic will work.  Two bolts are screwed into the holes near the big nut. 
yes you need access to both sides of the wheel to remove the screws. 
BEWARE those things are NOT just washers! They are irreplaceable insulators.  Don’t lose them. 

Have you ever changed the Pressure Pad on your Linc? 

Found this one online, bit it kinda looks more thick and higher? 

0005300_C0DZ-13A813-A.jpeg

It's says it fits like Fairlane - 1962-1966 Galaxie - 1963-1966 Ranchero - 1960-1966 Falcon - 1960-1966 Comet - 1960-1966 Truck F-100 - 1961-1970 - F-200 - 1960-1966, but no Lincolns.. which is weird, since the part number is C0DZ-13A813 (Like on your picture above) 

Something telling me it might be the wrong one. 

I guess i can give it a shot, since it's just few bucks, but i am still concerned about the Ground Strap, which i can't find online at all... 

Edited by BryanFJ1 (see edit history)
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I believe that this pad holds up the plastic middle in the listed vehicles.  
 

The Lincoln uses a “pad” as the spring.  It needs to be strong enough to support the weight of the horn ring and support it against the vibrations of driving.  
I have a tube of dense closed cell foam that I got somewhere.  I cut off a thick slice for my “springs”.  
 

You don’t need/have a ground strap.  Remove the wheel and ring first to understand how it works. 
 

You now have a shop manual these parts are not shown well in there.  
The best views for this are the exploded views in the parts book.  
 

Edited by m-mman (see edit history)
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11 minutes ago, m-mman said:

You don’t need/have a ground strap.  Remove the wheel and ring first to understand how it works. 

I'm afraid, as you said before, the spring is deformed so bad - it started touching metal thus blowing horns.

And i think what they did - they just removed this ground strap - so the horn ring is just "sitting in the air"... 

 

13 minutes ago, m-mman said:

I cut off a thick slice for my “springs”.

Yeah, i am starting to think about crafting something.

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The “spring” that holds up the horn ring cannot be metal. 
the horn ring works by NOT being grounded.   If (when) the horn ring grounds it completes the circuit activating the relay and sounds the horn.  

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3 hours ago, rocketraider said:

Go to Harbor Freight and get one of these. Under $20 and will work fine. All those bolts are so it can be used on multiple cars steering wheels. What, you thought standardization was a thing?

 

Also works on harmonic balancers and other such things.

62620_zzz_500.jpg

Yeah. i ordered one from Amazon.

The thing is that i have this feeling that it should have be an easy fix - but something tells me it's going to be a pain in the arse for a while (a really annoying one) 

 

 

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2 hours ago, BryanFJ1 said:

The thing is that i have this feeling that it should have be an easy fix - but something tells me it's going to be a pain in the arse for a while (a really annoying one) 

You are describing pretty much all collector car repairs.  😁

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Well. Another day - another pleasant surprise!

The antenna is working! Finally figured out how to activate it (Thanks to the manual book lol)

It kinda being stuck a bit, had to help it to go up/down with my hands but its working!

And when it's up - speaker is really loud too! (Even tho it's just one at the passenger side?) 

Put some WD40 all over the antenna so maybe it will help it a little bit.

The problem is - the radio stuck in one channel.

Im pressing buttons and only 1 transferring to some Spanish speaking radio, pressing any other buttons stays on this Christian radio.

Tried to turn right knob back and forth over and over - nothing :C 

Also when i am pressing COUNTRY or TOWN buttons - it's stops working.

The floor button does the same.

(I thought COUNTRY antenna goes up - TOWN goes down). 

Plus when exploring the radio, stumbled on that weird button in the glovebox (Which i thought was the light switch for it)

Turns out the trunk pivot for opening it remotely is working too!!!

Gee what a day! - noting have been fixed but im happy with the results! ^^ 

 

(But the big button for the door locks on the driver door is doing nothing, but eh, you cant get it all working in one day right?) 

Edited by BryanFJ1 (see edit history)
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Well, as i predicted before - the spring pad deteriorated too bad, they decide to remove ground strap...

I took the whole thing apart and it wasn't there.

So there is 2 questions in the air right now.

  1. Is it possible to soak the spring pad in something that will give it's elastic back? (It has cracks but it kinda looks that there is a second chance for it, if there is one)
  2. Where/how to find ground strap?

image.png.f6c8b5c7369dbfdcc05a49369ca2c179.png

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15 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

Well, as i predicted before - the spring pad deteriorated too bad, they decide to remove ground strap...

I took the whole thing apart and it wasn't there.

So there is 2 questions in the air right now.

  1. Is it possible to soak the spring pad in something that will give it's elastic back? (It has cracks but it kinda looks that there is a second chance for it, if there is one)
  2. Where/how to find ground strap?

image.png.f6c8b5c7369dbfdcc05a49369ca2c179.png

If you can not find this pad I would look to use a very large thick O ring. 

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3 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

If you can not find this pad I would look to use a very large thick O ring. 

For a pad and this ground strap could be an option actually.

There is 2 Lincolns on our local scrap yard, which are 1959 and 1958 models, so they must be pretty much the same...

I can harvest the ground strip probably, but these pads are going to to be in the same condition..

(Also i tried to put this pad into a boiled water for like couple hours. Nada...) 

 

 

Edited by BryanFJ1 (see edit history)
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This spring loaded button rubbing brush is what makes the horn work. 

This button should be carrying power from the horn relay.   

It Should  have 12 volts if you check it with your test light.

Whenever this power is grounded it should close the relay and sound the horn. 

If you connect between this button and ground (the steering post? the hourn should sound.  

 

There should be a brass "track" on the back of the steering wheel where this button rubs. Cleans these surfaces. 

 

There should be another spring loaded button in the steering wheel that touches the (normally not grounded - held up by the rubber "spring")  horn ring.   Is it there? 

That button should touch the (normally not grounded - held up by the rubber "spring") chrome horn ring. 

 

When depressed, the horn ring should ground against the steering wheel center metal area. (typically rusty) Clean this area and make sure that there is a good ground between the (normally not grounded - held up by the rubber "spring") horn ring WHEN COMPRESSING the rubber spring.  

If these are good then your horn should function. 

 

turnsig.png.ace9b5dbba84bef1d2d617ec9244fb59.png

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6 minutes ago, m-mman said:

If you connect between this button and ground (the steering post? the hourn should sound.  

Tried to connect steering post and this brass contact insulator with a wire - nothing happened. But i haven't tried my tester yet.

8 minutes ago, m-mman said:

There should be another spring loaded button in the steering wheel that touches the (normally not grounded - held up by the rubber "spring")  horn ring.   Is it there? 

That is missing... I can see there is a special spots between the rubber pad and the horn ring, like something has to go in there.

 

 

Well, im going tomorrow to the scrapyard to salvage some parts from there, also going to stop to get some Kerosene (Apparently it softens rubber related products with a combination of motor oil). 

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7 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

Well, im going tomorrow to the scrapyard to salvage some parts from there, also going to stop to get some Kerosene (Apparently it softens rubber related products with a combination of motor oil). 

Forget it. Nothing you do will add enough strength to the CRACKED rubber to reliability support the horn ring against the vibrations of driving.  You will need a ring of closed cell foam. 

 

9 minutes ago, BryanFJ1 said:

That is missing... I can see there is a special spots between the rubber pad and the horn ring, like something has to go in there.

This was most likely removed because when the rubber spring lost its ability to support the horn ring, the horn sounded constantly when driving or turning the wheel. 

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This is water pipe insulation material. Readily available at Home Depot -Lowes. 

Various diameters.  Buy a length and cut to various lengths until you find how much is needed to give enough springiness. Not too much not too little 

 

But check your horn electrical first. Before you begin assembling the ring. 

ring.jpg

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I don't know Lincolns in particular, but I do not think there should be any voltage present at that spring loaded button.

It does indeed connect to the relay but is there to provide a ground to the relay which is the actual switch that supplies voltage to the horns.

A test would be to take a piece of wire and touch that button to a ground and the horns should honk.

If there should be voltage there, (which I have never seen) then that test would blow a fuse.

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There would be voltage, but not in the way you might think. An open ground will show the whole supply voltage when measured with a voltmeter. There just wouldn't be a lot of current available.

 

It helps to think of the open spot in the circuit as a resistor. You can't really do math on infinity, but think of it as something crazy high like 99 billion ohms. The resistance of the horn relay coil is dwarfed by comparison, and an overwhelming majority of the voltage gets dropped across the open part of the circuit, the 99 billion ohm resistor. The drop across the relay coil is so miniscule, you wont even notice it. All of the supply voltage will appear on your meter.

 

Now when you honk the horn, by shorting the contact, that 99 billion ohm resistor becomes 0 ohms. Well not quite 0 ohms because that is impossible, No connection is quite perfect. It is extremely close to zero though, maybe 0.001 ohms or something like that. Now the coil of the horn relay is the highest resistance in the circuit, and an overwhelming majority of the supply voltage gets dropped across it. The relay pulls in and the horn honks.

 

It's the same reason you can measure voltage on the ground terminal of an ignition coil when the points are open.

 

horn.jpg

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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45 minutes ago, Bloo said:

There would be voltage, but not in the way you might think. An open ground will show the whole supply voltage when measured with a voltmeter. There just wouldn't be a lot of current available.

 

It helps to think of the open spot in the circuit as a resistor. You can't really do math on infinity, but think of it as something crazy high like 99 billion ohms. The resistance of the horn relay coil is dwarfed by comparison, and an overwhelming majority of the voltage gets dropped across the open part of the circuit, the 99 billion ohm resistor. The drop across the relay coil is so miniscule, you wont even notice it. All of the supply voltage will appear on your meter.

 

Now when you honk the horn, by shorting the contact, that 99 billion ohm resistor becomes 0 ohms. Well not quite 0 ohms because that is impossible, No connection is quite perfect. It is extremely close to zero though, maybe 0.001 ohms or something like that. Now the coil of the horn relay is the highest resistance in the circuit, and an overwhelming majority of the supply voltage gets dropped across it. The relay pulls in and the horn honks.

 

It's the same reason you can measure voltage on the ground terminal of an ignition coil when the points are open.

 

horn.jpg

 

I accept this explanation.

Learned something new (that I always thought I knew) today.

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Back from the fields...

Defeated...

Couldn't take the steering wheel from BOTH cars...

Don't know why. My tools all crooked and damaged now, but it's whatever...

I guess i can make something myself that can ground the horns with maybe copper sheet cut planks or something 

Also, one of these cars has a radio still there, but it's different. WAY TOO OLD LOL 

 

image.png.60f7cf2cb4ecc9c979dbe80272185eb0.png

 

Not sure what is that circle thingy is next to the radio. I don't think 1960 has it too? 

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2 hours ago, Bloo said:

It helps to think of the open spot in the circuit as a resistor. You can't really do math on infinity, but think of it as something crazy high like 99 billion ohms. The resistance of the horn relay coil is dwarfed by comparison, and an overwhelming majority of the voltage gets dropped across the open part of the circuit, the 99 billion ohm resistor. The drop across the relay coil is so miniscule, you wont even notice it. All of the supply voltage will appear on your meter.

tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif

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1 hour ago, BryanFJ1 said:

Couldn't take the steering wheel from BOTH cars...

Don't know why. My tools all crooked and damaged now, but it's whatever...

Slow down . . . .  Dont be in a rush . . . . Relax . . . . 

  

Learning about and knowing how to use tools, properly and learning what they do and what they DONT do is a critically important mechanical skill. 

 

1. Tool connects with the part you want removed, ensure that it has connected properly and solidly. 

2. Apply force in the proper direction.

         Understand threads intimately dont guess at the proper rotation.

         If pulling, ensure and verify that you are pulling in a straight line. (applying force at an angle will cause injuries, broken tools and stripped nuts)

3. Experience will teach you the maximum amount of force that can be applied JUST BEFORE something breaks or loosens up or you smash your knuckles. 

 

1 hour ago, BryanFJ1 said:

Not sure what is that circle thingy is next to the radio. I don't think 1960 has it too? 

This parts car looks like either a 1958 or 1959.  Both are very, very similar in most all parts. Many interchangeable parts. 

 

You have a 1960. Looks very similar but about one half of the car was brand new and doesnt interchange with a 1958-1959. (rear suspension switched from coil springs to leaf springs. . . ) 

 

The "round thing" is the HVAC servo control motor. 58-9 used mechanical cables. I believe that 1960 was vacuum. 

 

1 hour ago, BryanFJ1 said:

I guess i can make something myself that can ground the horns with maybe copper sheet cut planks or something

No. . . . .slow down (I know you are frustrated and maybe a little angry) But you are not going to be cutting any copper the replace the broken or missing parts. 

 

If those horn brushes are still in the parts cars, you should catch your breath, reset your tools and go back another day and try to retrieve them. 

Think of your time in the wrecking yard as a classroom. Be inquisitive.  You are there for more than just getting parts.

Dismantling parts cars is how you learn to repair your own car. 

 

I have many times gone to the wrecking yard not because I needed parts but because I wanted to remove the part from the junk car before I removed it on my car. (learn where all the bolts are)

Once I get the parts off, I leave them and I go home and fix my car. 

 

Stop, look observe, take pictures and go back home to look up what you have seen in the parts cars and learn what those parts are and why they are there. Auto repair and restoration is a lifelong learning experience. 

 

Then, try to remember that you are doing this for fun  🙂 

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21 minutes ago, m-mman said:

 

1. Tool connects with the part you want removed, ensure that it has connected properly and solidly.

Ahh. I know what you are saying there. But something was way off. I think the steering wheel was exposed to the air/moist way too much it just needed some WD40... (which i hadn't with me). 

But the horn rings on these older models looks different too. The shape for the rubber spring like WAAAY bigger. I could see it without taking it off.

The funny thing was, that in these way older cars than 1960 model - THE HORN RINGS IS NICE AND PUSHY. Like you press it and you can tell it's like brand new!!! Both cars! They changed something in 1960 for a "better" rubber, which is actually turned out to be the worse. Haha, classic...

 

Here is a picture of a my car horn ring, and 1959,1958 model? 

image.png.36b6573e84cb4e3c0ac39ad1f8e11151.pngimage.png.76af59be3752b4c4dfd04ec8f0da0c7e.png

 

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5 hours ago, Bloo said:

There would be voltage, but not in the way you might think. An open ground will show the whole supply voltage when measured with a voltmeter. There just wouldn't be a lot of current available.

 

It helps to think of the open spot in the circuit as a resistor. You can't really do math on infinity, but think of it as something crazy high like 99 billion ohms. The resistance of the horn relay coil is dwarfed by comparison, and an overwhelming majority of the voltage gets dropped across the open part of the circuit, the 99 billion ohm resistor. The drop across the relay coil is so miniscule, you wont even notice it. All of the supply voltage will appear on your meter.

 

Now when you honk the horn, by shorting the contact, that 99 billion ohm resistor becomes 0 ohms. Well not quite 0 ohms because that is impossible, No connection is quite perfect. It is extremely close to zero though, maybe 0.001 ohms or something like that. Now the coil of the horn relay is the highest resistance in the circuit, and an overwhelming majority of the supply voltage gets dropped across it. The relay pulls in and the horn honks.

 

It's the same reason you can measure voltage on the ground terminal of an ignition coil when the points are open.

 

horn.jpg

 

So, with all that being said - if i am going to try to test it with my light tester between the column post and the copper looking contact insulator - should be a light up in the tool? 

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