DBKissel Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Hi, I have a 1929 Kissel that was restored in about 1999 in upstate new York. The owner passed and the car was sold to me so I have no further info on the top, but it appears to be a broad cloth weave over a padding. It looks great, but I suspect that it is not waterproof. It has been in the local Auto Museum [www.wisconsinautomuseum.com] since 2001, but next year I would like to take it out. It occurred to me that I might at some point encounter rain, which could really ruin the top. I did a single water drop test on the top- which seemed Ok, but... Does anyone have suggestions? Thx in advance, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Scotchgard? They used to sell a convertible top dressing for the purpose. I don't know if you can still buy it. In those days travel trailers had a roof covered in canvas, waterproofed with 2 coats of white lead paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Contact Ron Hausman. He is the Kissel go to guy. He is on this forum. https://forums.aaca.org/profile/101322-ron-hausmann/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 It is not the top I would be worried about ruining. It is everything underneath the top! If the top doesn't shed water reasonably well? One good rain could lead to serious rust issues (could take years to show up?), total destruction of upholstery materials (could show up in months), or even lead to wood rotting issues. Numerous types of top materials were used back in the day, some based on canvas, others on oil-soaked cloth of several types. Many materials used for automobile tops were not much different (except for chemically being synthetic?) than Naugahyde (which is actually a modern trade name!), or other similar modern top materials. Colors and surface patterns of course varied considerably over the years. Your car currently has some sort of off-white cloth material, and may or may not have had something similar when it was new. When the car was new, the top material should have been somewhat water repellent. However, it may not have been really good at it. Quite frankly, Even most high end automobiles were not expected to survive and be in regular use for several decades! If there was some minor seepage, or leaks around the seams or edges, it may not have been considered a problem. Today, we should care whether our nearly hundred year old cars can survive the next century. To that end, we should make a bit of an effort to make sure that if we get caught in the rain? That the top can do its job well enough to not cause serious problems. I can't think of any really good way to test the top. Subjecting it to enough water to see what happens could do considerable harm if it fails the test. There must be some good top dressing out there that would make the material, and seams, all shed water all the while looking good? Scotch Guard is a great product for many things! And lousy at others. Some years back, several companies were pushing Scotch Guarded towels. They were HORRIBLE! What good is a towel that refuses to soak up water? I don't know if it would work for what you need or not? I sure would like to hear from someone that has tried it? Another possibility might be to get a yard of similar type material? Treat it, and then hang the piece in something like a basketball hoop and fill it with a gallon of water. See what happens? Just a thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Doug, This may not be the most authentic solution, but it is practical and I would do this if it were my Kissel and I intended to drive it very often. I would mask off the cloth top and coat it completely with a polyurethane spray coating. Two or three coats. Let it soak in in between. The top will look the same but will be a hardened plastic surface which will repel most any stain and rain. Park it under a Wisconsin mulberry tree with confidence. Take care. Ron Hausmann P. E. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Ash Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 The covering could be three-ply material as used on convertible tops. The inner layer would be an impervious polymeric layer, so no treatment would be required or even suggested. Is there a way to peek at a corner or edge of the fabric to see what it is? Don't put anything on it until you know what it is. See Haartz Stayfast material a an example: https://www.haartz.com/products/stayfast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt G Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Great advice from both Gary and Ron in short, to the point solutions and information. Haartz material is the best available and has been around and was used on the cars when new! It is my good fortune to have the owner of Haartz material company as a long time good friend who provided me with original company top sample books from the era for my research. I will use a word that I never use - it is rare to have the same company still around that provided the material on your 80+ year old car still in business owned by the same family and still providing the finest material! A short time ago there was a feature article done on Harrtz company and its history in Hemmings Classic Car magazine when that publication was still easily available. Follow the advice of Gary and Ron ( thank you gentlemen) , and proceed from there. Walt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuhner Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 I remember Rustoleum made a product called Never Wet. They claimed it could make cloth water proof. Seen it in the big box stores couple years ago. https://www.rustoleum.co.za/pages/help-and-support/faqs/neverwet-fabric-faqs/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Griots garage makes a number of products for convertible tops. Not sure they are compatible with what you have as it looks a bit coarse to me (may be just the close up). I would take Walts advice first though and see if it is water resistant to begin with. BTW, nice car! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBKissel Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 Thanks everyone for thoughts. Since the edges are tacked on to the wood frame, I will gently removed a tack or two in a safe spot and peek under to see what layers are there. My water test in the picture was a drop of about 3/16" dia and the surface tension of the water probably contributed to the beading effect. I'll let everyone know the results. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) You (or anyone of that matter) are not going to tour with it enough to make a difference (so probably a Scotch-Gard or comercial equivelent - ask Eric Harrtz - good solutions that will work fine if really concerned) and the real issue is not the fabric (as most likely is Stayfast /Haartz), but is all the edges, around the rear window, and stitching seams to some extent, and thereafter problem is one of those type of cars that you get more water inside when raining than there is rain outside - just joking but not far from the joke is reality (remember being on AACA tour with 1931 Cadillac and getting caught in a snow storm to have literally 12 wet people piled in car matched to all the snow in car and leaking everwhere, being caught in the 1941 Cadillac in a monsoon and having an inch of water sloshing from drivers side floor to passengers and visa versa (came in faster than could pull over to stp car to open doors to let water out), the 30 Franklin first time out of restoration that was in a field for a show that flooded over the spokes in the rims - long night drying wheels out and 25 years later car scorred 99.5 CCCA), first monsoon with 35 Auburn Pheaton with towels in our lap), lots of evenings drying out wilton wool carpet, and the list goes on and on. Edited October 23, 2022 by John_Mereness (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 John if you attract that much water you should tour th western half of the USA they need the water! Who knows you may even be able to earn some $$ by saying you are a rain maker ! LOL dave s 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmsue Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) Follow the advice given above, but if the consensus is to use a waterproofing spray, I've had success with 303 Fabric Guard on my 2 cloth convertible tops (Mini and Whippet). Recommended to me by the Mini Dealer in 2013. I spray on a heavy coat just about every year and let the top dry in the sun. The top on my Mini is just about 10 years old and looks new. Good Luck, Bill Edited October 23, 2022 by wmsue update (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Mereness Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 hour ago, SC38dls said: John if you attract that much water you should tour th western half of the USA they need the water! Who knows you may even be able to earn some $$ by saying you are a rain maker ! LOL dave s That 1941 Cadillac 60 Special Fleetwood was bought with 17,000 miles in 1979 (I was 14 when I purcaed it) and sold in 2017, with 97,500 miles on it - most people will never do that kind of AACA / CCCA touring. The 35 Auburn has 50,000 miles on it since mechancial restoration (crossed the United States twice), the 31 Cadillac 12K miles (crossed the United States once), the Franklin maybe 5K miles, and the balance of cars maybe 500 miles a year albeit I am probably leaving something regulally used out of this note. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBKissel Posted June 29, 2023 Author Share Posted June 29, 2023 Just a follow up to this discussion. I have the car out of the Museum and after further research, decided to use a water based product- Starbrite Protectant. It is advertised as being less aggressive than solvent based products used on older threads. I applied with foam roller when I found out that the top was semi water proof already. Changing to using the sprayer worked better. It dried uniformly with no change in color. I would recommend this for anyone in a similar top. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFeeney Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 I am always amazed at the "Real World" information found on this forum. If I learned anymore my "Head" might crack open. Thanks again to all who posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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