1957 Intermittent stalling when at temperature

[lancemb]

As some of you know, I've just gotten my 57 75R back on the road after decades of sitting and a 5 year restoration involving complete teardown and reassembly.  Damn near everything is new or rebuilt.  A couple weeks ago, after taking it for a short drive after which it had only been driven about 10 miles since reassembly, it died and would not restart as I pulled into the garage.  That turned out to be a failed fuel pump rebuild, and rebuilder fixed the pump Ib sent back to then and confirmed the arm had come loose from the diaphram.

 

Last week I attempted to drive it to the upholstery shop 23 miles away and it died 10 miles from destination.  It had been at operating temperature for awhile and was not overheating and the ambient temperature was about 72 degrees so not a particularly hot day, and there was no real warning and was running perfectly up to that point.  I had it towed the rest of the was to the shop where upholstery is getting done and thought perhaps it's the old rebuilt fuel pump I'd put in it that now failed.  However, the next day the shop fired it up no problem and it ran fine, got up to operating temperature and there was no sign of problems.

 

I know if I do nothing it will fail again, probably on the way home.  I feel I have little choice but to bring them some parts to swap out, so I'm trying to figure out what it could be.  I doubt there is something blocking in fuel system as everything is new and it ran after nothing changing other than the car cooling down.  I'm thinking it's something in ignition system, and my first thought is a failing coil.

 

Any ideas?

Edited May 2, 2022 by lancemb (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

Coil. Condenser. 

[EmTee]

Agree with avgwarhawk - but I'd either add a set of points, or suggest hitting the contacts with a point file to ensure there's no issue with them.

[NailheadBob]

After getting my 1958 back from the body shop, was there for 2 years,  I had a similar problem where it died out while driving, let it sit for 20 minutes and would start back up run ok, and drive a little and die out gain, and found the inside of carburetor float bowl area was loaded with what looked like a lot of body shop dust that mixed with gasoline and was a real mess, I boiled out the carburetor with a mixture of lemon juice and water mixture (1 cup of lemon juice to 2 quarts of water) and used a pot on the outside gas grille. That fixed my problem, I had rebuilt the carburetor about 1 year before taking car to body shop.

 

 Bob

Edited May 2, 2022 by NailheadBob
update (see edit history)

[usnavystgc]

It sounds like vapor lock to me.  The fact that it started at the body shop the next day with no issues should rule out the carb body shop dust and points theories (at  least in my view).  This is exactly what my 56 was doing before I installed my electric fuel pump.  It would run fine cold but, once it got to operating temp, it would vapor lock once I stopped for any amount of time (red light, whatever).  

[The 55er]

Based on my personal experiences over the years I would give the ignition system a good inspection. Pull the distributor cap, check the rotor, look for loose, frayed, or bare wires inside including the stranded lead wire to the points. If the problem's still there replace the condenser. I've probably been luckier than most but the only vapor lock issues I've ever had were on older inline engines in the extreme summer heat when temps were really hot. 

[lancemb]

1 hour ago, usnavystgc said:

It sounds like vapor lock to me.  The fact that it started at the body shop the next day with no issues should rule out the carb body shop dust and points theories (at  least in my view).  This is exactly what my 56 was doing before I installed my electric fuel pump.  It would run fine cold but, once it got to operating temp, it would vapor lock once I stopped for any amount of time (red light, whatever).  

It crossed my mind, except it was at operating temperature for awhile before this happened.  There was also no discernable issue when coming to a stop and taking off just a minute before it happened.  Also, it was not a hot day.  I would expect some kind of warning if vapor lock issue, no?

[usnavystgc]

Exactly what you are saying is what happens.  I have found it does not have to be a hot day.  Mine started doing this when it got in the mid to upper 60's here.  The fact that it was at op temp for a while is further evidence of vapor lock.  If you are driving at speed, the car will not typically vapor lock because there is a constant flow of fuel (fast enough to prevent it).  When you stop or even slow, the fuel flow is not enough and vapor lock happens.  You will not notice it until the fuel in your bowl runs dry.  This typically happens a few hundred yards or more from your stop.  The only warning you get is, your engine suddenly dies due to lack of fuel.  While you're at a stop, the engine is running off the fuel in the bowl.  When that fuel is gone, the car dies and will not start again until it cools down.

 

IDK what your elevation is there but, since I'm at 3K feet, the boiling point of fuel is very low at 5 psi (esp if you're running what's left in your tank from a winter blend).  The summer blend may help but, in my case is hasn't helped much.

[lancemb]

1 hour ago, usnavystgc said:

Exactly what you are saying is what happens.  I have found it does not have to be a hot day.  Mine started doing this when it got in the mid to upper 60's here.  The fact that it was at op temp for a while is further evidence of vapor lock.  If you are driving at speed, the car will not typically vapor lock because there is a constant flow of fuel (fast enough to prevent it).  When you stop or even slow, the fuel flow is not enough and vapor lock happens.  You will not notice it until the fuel in your bowl runs dry.  This typically happens a few hundred yards or more from your stop.  The only warning you get is, your engine suddenly dies due to lack of fuel.  While you're at a stop, the engine is running off the fuel in the bowl.  When that fuel is gone, the car dies and will not start again until it cools down.

 

IDK what your elevation is there but, since I'm at 3K feet, the boiling point of fuel is very low at 5 psi (esp if you're running what's left in your tank from a winter blend).  The summer blend may help but, in my case is hasn't helped much.

Hmmm.  It's possible I suppose.  It happened while I was cruising at highway speed though.  I've never had this problem with a 57 so not sure what would be different with this one.  I think I'll replace fuel pump back with newly rebuilt one which may have a little more PSI, and swap the coil.  I may also block off the exhaust channels on the intake.  For now though I think I'll send fuel pump and coil to shop for swapping and see how it acts on the way home.  If I have an issue I'll try blocking the exhaust on intake.

Edited May 2, 2022 by lancemb (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Next time it dies and won't start check for spark and then check for fuel at the carburetor.

[usnavystgc]

53 minutes ago, lancemb said:

It happened while I was cruising at highway speed though.

Highway speed but, how long after you made a stop?

[JohnD1956]

I would only change parts one piece at a time and then try to replicate the situation. Otherwise you won't know what caused the issue.  And I would start by not changing anything till I got it home, even if it did mean taking the risk of another breakdown.  The fuel pump should not be the issue since it started again. If it went bad on the way over then it would still be bad.  The condensor may be a problem but again I would not change it till it happened again.  Mostly I am with Phil on this one.  Vapor lock from winter blend gas.  Willie always says vapor lock happens before the fuel pump so I would insulate the fuel line running across the front cross member, from the drivers side to at least the flexible connector.  

[lancemb]

44 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

I would only change parts one piece at a time and then try to replicate the situation. Otherwise you won't know what caused the issue.  And I would start by not changing anything till I got it home, even if it did mean taking the risk of another breakdown.  The fuel pump should not be the issue since it started again. If it went bad on the way over then it would still be bad.  The condensor may be a problem but again I would not change it till it happened again.  Mostly I am with Phil on this one.  Vapor lock from winter blend gas.  Willie always says vapor lock happens before the fuel pump so I would insulate the fuel line running across the front cross member, from the drivers side to at least the flexible connector.  

I hear ya, but I don't want to have to tow it home and time is not on my side to get this problem solved before the BCA meet.  Perhaps I can just have them change the coil and see how that goes.  If it dies on way home I can check for spark and go from there, like sitting awhile until it cools off.

 

Do you think the winter blend gas is a large factor?  I could siphon some gas out before I leave and bring some replacement.

[lancemb]

1 hour ago, usnavystgc said:

Highway speed but, how long after you made a stop?

Not certain, but not too long I don't think.  When it did start back up though, it started quickly, which makes me think fuel bowl was still full.

[usnavystgc]

Ok, well, IDK then.  Keep us in the loop on what you figure out.  

[JohnD1956]

3 hours ago, lancemb said:

Do you think the winter blend gas is a large factor? 

I really cannot tell.  I would like to ask some additional questions though. 

How old is/was the gas?

Was it an ethanol/gas blend, or non ethanol? 

Do you have a temp gauge, and what was the running temp when stopped?

How many blades on the fan?

Do you have the glass fuel filter up front?  and if so, did you notice if the bowl was empty?

 

 

 

[lancemb]

16 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

I really cannot tell.  I would like to ask some additional questions though. 

How old is/was the gas?

Was it an ethanol/gas blend, or non ethanol? 

Do you have a temp gauge, and what was the running temp when stopped?

How many blades on the fan?

Do you have the glass fuel filter up front?  and if so, did you notice if the bowl was empty?

 

 

 

Gas was from early March, so probably still winter blend, but not old.  As far as I know all the gas around here may contain up to 10% ethanol.  Temp gauge stayed exactly at normal whole time after it warmed up.  I think it's a 4 blade fan - whatever it left factory with.  Radiator is triple-row recored btw.  I'm pretty darn confident it was not overheating.  I have glass fuel bowl and it was not empty.

[JohnD1956]

I do not know what happened to cause your stall but here is a situation I had with my 56.

 

I also have a 3 row core and a 4 blade fan.  Several yuears ago when I was really just starting to drive it after a couple of years with minimal use, we also could only get ethanol blended fuel.  There is no glass bowl filter for 56 but I did cut a clear inline filter into my fuel line just before the carb.  It used to be I'd come home from a run and I could see the gas boiling in the fuel filter.  This would happen nearly all the time.  One time I drove on a hot day across the Hudson River to Troy NY.  There I drove the stop and go across the narrow town and came to the base of the steep hill on the other side.  When the light turned green I started out and about 50 ft into the steep hill it dropped dead.  I opened the hood and looked around and I still remember the heat from the engine hitting me in the face.  It was several minutes later that I closed the hood and it started and I drove it up the hill with no problem.  Then I insulated my fuel line by using that 3/8" black plastic wiring loam.  From the pump to the inline filter, then from the pump across the front cross member, and right into the hole in the frame as far as I could push it past the drivers side exhaust manifold.  That stopped the gas from boiling in the fuel filter.  For the last six years or so non ethanol blend has been readily available in my area.  And I drive this car quite a bit without an electric pump installed.  

 

It may not be the same as your car but it sounds similar enough to me.  One thing you may want to try is to put the trans in neutral when in stop and go traffic conditions, and then bump the idle a bit to help move more hot air out from under the hood. 

[lancemb]

17 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

I do not know what happened to cause your stall but here is a situation I had with my 56.

 

I also have a 3 row core and a 4 blade fan.  Several yuears ago when I was really just starting to drive it after a couple of years with minimal use, we also could only get ethanol blended fuel.  There is no glass bowl filter for 56 but I did cut a clear inline filter into my fuel line just before the carb.  It used to be I'd come home from a run and I could see the gas boiling in the fuel filter.  This would happen nearly all the time.  One time I drove on a hot day across the Hudson River to Troy NY.  There I drove the stop and go across the narrow town and came to the base of the steep hill on the other side.  When the light turned green I started out and about 50 ft into the steep hill it dropped dead.  I opened the hood and looked around and I still remember the heat from the engine hitting me in the face.  It was several minutes later that I closed the hood and it started and I drove it up the hill with no problem.  Then I insulated my fuel line by using that 3/8" black plastic wiring loam.  From the pump to the inline filter, then from the pump across the front cross member, and right into the hole in the frame as far as I could push it past the drivers side exhaust manifold.  That stopped the gas from boiling in the fuel filter.  For the last six years or so non ethanol blend has been readily available in my area.  And I drive this car quite a bit without an electric pump installed.  

 

It may not be the same as your car but it sounds similar enough to me.  One thing you may want to try is to put the trans in neutral when in stop and go traffic conditions, and then bump the idle a bit to help move more hot air out from under the hood. 

I like the idea of insulating the fuel hose, but hate the idea of how it would look on a car I've gone to painstaking lengths to keep original appearance in most aspects.  However, I'll consider that as a last resort.

 

After doing some internet research, I think the winter blend gas could also play a significant role...

[old-tank]

19 minutes ago, lancemb said:

I think the winter blend gas could also play a significant role...

Get used to it.  The EPA is allowing continuation of winter blend for the sometime in the future...along with E-15 fuel... 

[KAD36]

1) Coil dropping out when hot

 

2) Voltage regulator regulating voltage too low as it warms up.  Whats system voltage when its about to die, warm, at idle in Drive.

 

3) Ballast resistor - clean the connections and measure the resistance.  Too low system voltage in (2) plus high resistance across the ballast will give low primary voltage and weak spark.  Mine would die with hood closed and run with hood open with electric fuel pump rattling away so it wasn’t VL.  Go figure.

 

4). Take hood off per (3).  No don’t do that 🤣🤣

 

Try JDs idea of putting it in neutral and feeding gas if stopped - it should also raise the system voltage.  
 

To this day even after looking at his engine I can’t understand how his plastic wire loom trick worked, but it sure does. 👍

Edited May 4, 2022 by KAD36 (see edit history)

[dmfconsult]

I was having a similar problem with my 67 Electra that you also may consider.  Randomly, and once at 60mph on a narrow mountain highway, the Electra would start to run very rough, stumble, then die.  After 20-30min, it would restart with no issues (although still running a bit rough).  I think at the time, @JohnD1956 suggested "carb icing", as the initial time it happened was on a clear, but cool day in November.  I still went through all the electrical system as described above and everything checked out.   My initial thoughts were old fuel and potential starvation due lower fuel volume in the tank sloshing around on a windy highway.   In any case, the problem occurred several times, and we ultimately decided to install an electric fuel pump to help push fuel to the existing pump on the engine.  With great hopes of having a reliable driver again, I was greatly disappointed to be greeted by a similar problem with an erratically rough running engine.  While it didn't stall, it would run rough to the point where I had to drop it into neutral at lights and bump up the RPM with the right foot.  

 

We ended up pulling the carburetor apart and found that the internal gasket (from a rebuild kit) was missing a small ear, and as a result excess air would leak in, affecting the fuel mixture, under certain circumstances.  I think this with the heat of the engine was causing vapor lock like symptoms.  I'm not saying this is your issue, but your symptoms sure sound familiar.  With a new correct gasket in place, there have been no further issues for me. 

 

Good luck in finding your gremlin!

Edited May 4, 2022 by dmfconsult (see edit history)

[lancemb]

I got some interesting feedback from the shop.  A mechanic there took a further look and thinks that the fuel hose at the frame is being restricted because it is thicker than the original and being squeezed by the clips.

 

I think that while it is clearly not restricted enough to not run, the restriction could be increasing chance of vapor lock if forward section is not completely filled with fuel due to rearward restrictions.

 

He's going to take hose out of clips and zip tie it in place for me to try it out on the ride home.  I may also try to swap out some fuel for ride home.  If I make it home I'll be confident it's a vapor lock issue.  It should also be significantly warmer a couple weeks from now when it comes home. 

[d2_willys]

Had a vehicle that would do similar things. Turned out to be the non vented gas cap. Check your cap for proper venting.

[Caballero2]

also, the fuel tank is also vented by a tube that rests above the maximum fuel level.  if that is blocked and the fuel cap is blocked, the result described will occur.  if a vented fuel cap is used, then acceleration will result in some fuel escaping the filler neck. In my restoration I used a vented cap and blocked the tank vent.  Then I rarely fuel to a full tank.

 

DAN

[NTX5467]

When it starts dieing away, can you pump the accel pedal and get it to keep running?
 

I had an issue with my '68 LeSabre 350, that it would be running and the rpm would suddenly start decreasing.  I found that by furiously pumping the accel pedal, I could "catch it" before it died and it would keep running.  THEN it started to do this when driving down the highway.  Same tactic, which usually worked.  But sometimes it would refire and then die when I put it into gear (rh rr wheel on dirt).

 

One night, on a whim, I replaced the existing fuel pump.  After that, the engine sounded better than it ever had.  I suspect that drivability issue was why the old guy got rid of the car, considering that the fuel line had a union in it, for an obvious fuel pressure tap.

 

Just my experiences,

NTX5467

[lancemb]

1 hour ago, NTX5467 said:

When it starts dieing away, can you pump the accel pedal and get it to keep running?
 

Nope!

[KAD36]

Any new news on this front?

[lancemb]

On 5/18/2022 at 6:35 PM, KAD36 said:

Any new news on this front?

The shop is going to remove the rubber fuel line from the clips at the side of the frame and secure them to the clips such as not to be restricted.  I'll swap out some of the fuel when I pick it up also.  Then, I'll hope for the best on the way home. 

 

I'm scheduled to pick it up next Friday...

[lancemb]

Well, after swapping out most of the gas and freeing up the rubber lines, no improvement.  In fact, I spent a good part of the weekend getting stuck and having to wait for it to cool down.

 

Now, I can barely go any distance without the car dying.  I think I've got some heat sink issues, but I'm now convinced my immediate problem is in the ignition system. 

 

It now gets so bad that when the car is even a little warm it dies, and I lose current to the ignition system completely (or at least not enough to light up a test light).  This is confirmed at the yellow wires going to the coil, to the switch on the carburetor, and to the ballast resistor.  These are all in the same harness, along with the dash accessories.  I am thinking I will just replace that whole section of harness.  By the time I peel it apart and troubleshoot it, that may be easier.

 

Before it got this bad, I replaced the coil and condensor but of course that didn't help. 

[EmTee]

How's the ignition switch?  Is it warm...?

[lancemb]

11 minutes ago, EmTee said:

How's the ignition switch?  Is it warm...?

I didn't check, but didn't notice it was wRm and right after it happened I had good current at the neutral safety switch coming from the ignition switch.  The ignition switch is new also, for what that's worth.

 

In fact, the wiring harness is about the only thing that isn't new.  Not that new components can't fail, but I tend to suspect old stuff first anyhow.

Edited May 31, 2022 by lancemb (see edit history)

[EmTee]

When I was suspicious of my ignition switch I clipped a temporary wire between +12 V and the coil to bypass the ignition switch.  If doing so eliminates the problem then you can narrow the search to the switch or that part of the harness.

[JohnD1956]

Could it be a weak ballast resistor? 

[lancemb]

29 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

Could it be a weak ballast resistor? 

That wouldn't affect the current at the accelerator switch though, which is also affected. That's why I think there is a bad spot in the harness somewhere, where both wires are affected.

[lancemb]

41 minutes ago, EmTee said:

When I was suspicious of my ignition switch I clipped a temporary wire between +12 V and the coil to bypass the ignition switch.  If doing so eliminates the problem then you can narrow the search to the switch or that part of the harness.

You mean 12v to the resistor?  I wouldn't want to bypass that to run it...

[EmTee]

No, 12V to the + side of the coil.  It won't hurt anything to run it that way for a test.  (You have to remove the wire to shut the engine off, though...)  Alternatively, bring the wire with you on a test drive (mine is about 3' of #14 wire with alligator clips at each end) and clip it between +12V and the + coil terminal the next time the car quits.  Then try to start it and see what happens...

[NailheadBob]

I like EmTee test jumper wire at coil,  if car does not die with test wire on , look at main harness connector at firewall on drivers side, the top six pins one is for coil, unplug connector and look closely at terminals if look ok, clean metal terminals with small wire brush and then reconnect and road test.

 

Bob

Edited May 31, 2022 by NailheadBob
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[lancemb]

Thanks for input @EmTee and @NailheadBob.  My problem is that I have very little time to work on this, and I don't have any more time to spend getting stuck with it again.  I cleaned up all of the terminals when I put the car back together so I don't think it's just that.

 

If I change the harness out and the problem persists then at least I've improved the car and eliminated a whole lot ofv things.  It will be a miracle if I can get that done.

 

However, if I spend more time testing and don't come up with anything more conclusive then I may have then passed the point with certainty of being able to replace harness.

 

Time is not on my side if I want to get this car to Lisle.  I've got a demanding day job and family so I may only have a couple days to work on this...

[lancemb]

I was able to take a day off work Friday, so I'm going to do some more testing before I get in too deep...