‘23 Buick 6 Engine Rebuilder needed. Suggestions?

[1929wilbur]

My buddy needs his Buick 23-45 engine redone.  2 of the cylinders have less than 15 lb of compression.  The others are mid-50’s.  He’s located in southern NJ.   Any suggestions as to a rebuilder who has experience with these motors?

[wayne sheldon]

I can't help with suggestions on that end of the continent (although I do know someone I would highly recommend just a few miles from me!).

 

However, is your friend looking to have a full rebuild? A partial overhaul? Or just repair the two weak cylinders?

Makes a big difference.

[1929wilbur]

Most likely a full rebuild.  It’s a very nice car and since that engine has no head, doing a partial isn’t really an option.

[Mark Shaw]

Loss of compression might be due to a couple of bad valves.  Buicks have cage valves that are easy to re-seat.

[wayne sheldon]

21 minutes ago, Mark Shaw said:

Loss of compression might be due to a couple of bad valves.  Buicks have cage valves that are easy to re-seat.

 

I would suspect, but do not know, that this may be the same car recently discussed in another thread? However, I recall that car was in Arizona. There was a comment about maybe selling that car? And I haven't seen an update for a couple weeks maybe? 

Regardless, the same car or not? That other thread should be looked at as there is some good information there. So I looked back and found it. 

See;

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/370851-1923-buick-roadster-model-23-6-44/#comment-2297623

 

At least as of today, that thread hasn't yet been moved to the Buick prewar topics.

As a side note. I have also noticed a nearly identical 1923 Buick roadster painted an almost identical blue for sale by one of the common ebay dealers (I do not recall which one?). More than a week ago I had to go back to look to be sure it wasn't the same car! So that makes two 1923 Buick six blue roadsters floating around out there!

[1929wilbur]

Wayne.  This is not the car that had been discussed elsewhere.  It has spent it’s entirety within 20 miles of where it is now, since new.

[wayne sheldon]

Nice! I do hope you can share a few good pictures of it. Us crazies like pictures!

[1929wilbur]

Here's a shot of the old girl

[1929wilbur]

The two jugs that have low comp are heavily oil-soaked, suggesting stuck/ worn rings.

[Mark Shaw]

3 hours ago, 1929wilbur said:

The two jugs that have low comp are heavily oil-soaked, suggesting stuck/ worn rings.

I always suggest the low-cost & easiest fix first....  Just saying....

[1929wilbur]

Thanks Mark.  Is there a source for the special spanner tools (2) needed  to remove those cage nuts or is it only a “make it” tool?

[wayne sheldon]

Stuck rings shouldn't be too difficult a repair? A longtime very good friend has a 1915 large six Buick (Is it a "B" or a "C" 55?). Basically an earlier version of your engine. About twenty years ago, he knocked a rod bearing loose on a major club tour. I am pretty sure he did an "in the car" rod replacement and checked all the rest of the rods at that time.

I don't know for certain, and would hope someone correct me if I am wrong? (Please?) But I think the rods and pistons can be taken out the bottom with the crankshaft in place? I know that someone told me that years ago.

Stuck rings are a common effect from sitting too long. Some times they will loosen up by running for awhile. I generally stay away from the Marvel Mystery Oil discussions, although I basically think it is snake oil. However, this is one of the rare conditions that it can sometimes do the trick! On the other hand, I have known people that say automatic transmission fluid works better, and I have seen that seem to work myself.

Rings sticking in otherwise decent condition engines are often caused by minute carbon deposits forming around the rings due to the hot conditions of the pistons during even normal use. Then the engine doesn't get run for too long (usually but not always takes a couple years at least), petroleum fluids evaporate out of the oil (very slowly because of the confined conditions inside the cylinders). If the engine is started and run without first soaking the cylinders in oil and running down into the rings? The pistons get hot, and might bake the already dried oil and carbon deposits into place. The thinner oils and detergents in MMO and automatic transmission oil can sometimes flush out enough of the carbon deposits to allow the rings to free up. And, sometimes nothing short of pulling them out and properly cleaning them will work. It is usually better in the long run to do that anyway.

 

My close friend has also had to rotate and line up the valve cages a few times. It is a very common problem in that era Buicks. I don't know if anyone has made a bunch of the special wrenches for them or not. But I do know a lot of people have made their own special wrench for the task.

Edited December 13, 2021 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

And by the way? Thank you for showing the picture of your car! It is beautiful!

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

I’ve heard that J and M Machine is quite good. I’ve talked to John several times over the phone about rebuilding my continental. He was quite knowledgeable. You’ll have to google them. Mike

[1929wilbur]

Interesting that the piston may be able to be removed from the bore through the bottom with the crankshaft in place.  Thanks for that!   Only two of the jugs show low compression.   My go-to juice has always been a mix of ATF and acetone.  We may try flooding those two cylinders with it for a while and see what happens.  Thanks.   Not many rebuilder names have popped up…

[wayne sheldon]

I am not very familiar with rebuilders on that end of the country. However, the J&M that Mike "Hubbie" Stearns mentioned I have heard about on a model T forum I spend too much time on. People on that forum speak very highly of them!

Joe Bell is another name that gets mentioned a lot on that other forum. I think he is still taking in work. I don't know if I can find contact information for him or not.

 

I really wish it wasn't so far to not work out. The fellow down the road from me has done a lot of work on 1920s Buicks. And he does everything from a minor repair to a full machine and remanufacture!

[1929wilbur]

Thanks, Wayne.  I’m a T-guy myself and am very familiar with both Joe Bell and J&M.  This Buick belongs to a friend of mine.  I just learned that American LaFrance fire trucks of this era ran Buick engines and another friend is currently replacing one rod in his fire truck.   He was able to get the piston out thru the bottom past the crank.

[oldcarfudd]

Mike Gardner is near Hershey, PA.  Walter Higgins is near York.  Both have worked for me.  Both are heavily backed up.  Mike has my Buick engine now; we're waiting on a new crankshaft from Moldex.

[Brian_Heil]

Check lash first on low cylinders, you could be holding valves open with no lash. 

Next if lash is correct

 

Pull the valve cages on the suspect cylinders.  Start with the exhaust cages. 
 

Agree with Mr Shaw. 
 

[Brian_Heil]

Any bent push rods from stuck valves?  Buick caged valves like to stick if not kept lubed. 

[Mark Shaw]

On 12/12/2021 at 9:06 AM, 1929wilbur said:

Thanks Mark.  Is there a source for the special spanner tools (2) needed  to remove those cage nuts or is it only a “make it” tool?

A brass drift and small taps with a hammer will work just fine after soaking in penetrating oil...

[Brian_Heil]

I do chuckle about this post and cages rotating.  Anyone who has had the ‘pleasure’ of trying to remove cages can concur that they don’t move let alone rotate.  Frozen is the term that comes to mind. One of the most difficult things I have ever had to unstick.
 

Pay attention to rotating upon installation.

 

 Check the alignment mark you made above the center of the ‘bird hole’ once you have the locking ring tight. 
 

An old timer trick I was taught to remove stuck cages after complaining about the difficulty seems counter intuitive but with the piston in the stuck cage cylinder up all the way, remove the jam nut, key, spring keeper and spring.  Put a parts tag wire through the valve key hole so you don’t let the valve drop.  If you do, don’t worry the piston being up will catch it before you lose it and you are going to pull the cage anyway. 
 

With the spring, jam nut etc removed, put a hardened socket over the cage where the spring seats roughly the same size as the removed spring and give it a good rap with a hammer.  This breaks the carbon that is locking the cage to the bottom of the cage bore.  I was skeptical at first but it really works.  It also feels good to give that stuck bugger a rap. Ha. 
 

The long since departed Flint mechanic said he removed more cages than he could count with this method. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

Where is the car located?  IF it has to be completely rebuilt I can recommend the best shop in the country to do it. 

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918 

[1929wilbur]

The car is located in Southern New Jersey.  Excellent tips about cage removal.  Thanks.  I watched a video on YouTube of a fellow pulling them out with an engine hoist.  I cringed at that butal method.

[Oldtech]

A lot of older engines were made that you could remove the pistons and rods from the bottom. They will also have a flare at the bottom of the cylinder to facilitate the rings sliding in without a compressor. Slick actually. 

Just turn the crank sideways and there is plenty of room.  The most aggravation I had is when I tried to remove a piston from the bottom and it wasn't designed for that. Then you have it jammed with the rings out and it has to go back in and out the top. 🤔 Generally, if there is no counterweights they will come out the bottom.  If counterweights they MIGHT come out the bottom. 

The Model L Case tractor was designed that you could pull the rod and piston out the hand hole cover on the side and not even remove the pan for a quickie ring job. A bit awkward but could be done. 

[ILIKECARS53]

You can also try Automotive Restorations in Lebanon NJ.  The engine guy there is excellent.

[jbbuick22]

Check out  J and M machine in Southboro MA

 

They do excellent work

 

John

22-6-55

[1929wilbur]

Thanks for all the recommendations. 

[Morgan Wright]

On 12/13/2021 at 2:25 PM, 1929wilbur said:

The car is located in Southern New Jersey.  Excellent tips about cage removal.  Thanks.  I watched a video on YouTube of a fellow pulling them out with an engine hoist.  I cringed at that butal method.

 

That was me.
 

 

[Larry Schramm]

On 12/13/2021 at 2:25 PM, 1929wilbur said:

The car is located in Southern New Jersey.  Excellent tips about cage removal.  Thanks.  I watched a video on YouTube of a fellow pulling them out with an engine hoist.  I cringed at that butal method.

 

Not a normal or correct way to remove a valve cage.  Lucky no one got hurt.

[Morgan Wright]

20 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Not a normal or correct way to remove a valve cage.  Lucky no one got hurt.

 

A method that works when all the others have failed becomes the correct way. Short of removing the head and pounding the cage out with a steel pipe, this was the last resort. Save your insulting comments for somebody else.

[Brian_Heil]

Try to remove his head with an iron bar?

 

Didn’t Phineas Gage try that method?

[Morgan Wright]

I worked on a friends car, the valve cages came out with a screwdriver. They had been out only 8 years before so they were loose. Mine had not been out in 80 or 90 years. Only about 3 or 4 came out with the Buffom tool, the rest didn't, so you do what you have to do.

[hidden_hunter]

Was there a special tool back in the day or would they have removed the heads and used a press or something?

[Brian_Heil]

The Buffum Tool

[Morgan Wright]

I would like to make a suggestion using the buffum tool. If you can't get the cage out the usual way with the buffum tool using the hooks on the spring, take the spring keeper off and remove the spring, replace it with a washer or several washers and put the keeper back on the valve stem, and try again. The forces needed to remove a severely stuck valve cage will warp the spring and destroy it, and you have to get a new spring for that one, and get an expert to match up a new spring in terms of length and tension per inch, etc. If you want to keep the original springs, and the valve cage won't come out with the buffum tool, and you don't want to ruin the springs like I did, you really need to take the jughead off and whack the cages out with a pipe. Phineas Gage can show you how.

[Terry Wiegand]

When I pulled all of the valve cages out of the engine in our '16 for the very first time I used a BUFFUM cage pulling tool.  All of the cages but the exhaust cage in the number 6 cylinder came out rather easily.  That number 6 exhaust valve wasn't going to give it up easily no way, no how.  My Dad was still alive back then and I asked him what I could do about that.  His suggestion was to put the puller on it and get a real good pull on it and leave it set overnight.  I did that and filled the top of the counterbore pocket with Marvel Mystery Oil and let it set overnight.  That was kinda a hard thing to do by just walking away from it.  When I got home from work the next day it was time to see what had happened.  I had a long box-end wrench that I used on the tool.  I put the wrench on it and snuck up on the pull steadily.  Just when I thought that this wasn't going to work the cage broke loose with a bang that sounded like a shotgun went off.  I remember very well thinking that something or some things had broken.  It really scared me and I was afraid to start looking at things for fear of what I might find.  As good luck would have it nothing was harmed and the cage came out all in one piece.  This is just some free advice on my part - a person should NEVER,EVER pound on the cylinder block to try and remove those cages.  The wall thicknesses of the casting are really thin in the water jacket area and breaking the casting can leave a person up crap creek without any paddle whatsoever.  It's called patience and perseverance when working on these old engines.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Brian_Heil]

On 12/29/2021 at 7:32 PM, Morgan Wright said:

I would like to make a suggestion using the buffum tool. If you can't get the cage out the usual way with the buffum tool using the hooks on the spring, take the spring keeper off and remove the spring, replace it with a washer or several washers and put the keeper back on the valve stem, and try again. The forces needed to remove a severely stuck valve cage will warp the spring and destroy it, and you have to get a new spring for that one, and get an expert to match up a new spring in terms of length and tension per inch, etc. If you want to keep the original springs, and the valve cage won't come out with the buffum tool, and you don't want to ruin the springs like I did, you really need to take the jughead off and whack the cages out with a pipe. Phineas Gage can show you how.

That’s what the heavy washer that comes with the tool in the picture is for. 

[Morgan Wright]

Yeah, the washer that is always missing.