38Buick 80C Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 5 hours ago, DonMicheletti said: I used Ficken to rebuild the motor on my Special and he did a great job and it works better than any vacuum wiper motor I have ever had. As did I for my 38 and my 58. I was very impressed. I sent them on a Tuesday and had it back in my hands the following Tuesday. Call him first and get pricing and let him know its coming but he rocks!!!!!! 5 star A++ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 5, 2022 Author Share Posted December 5, 2022 Since the weather has turned a corner and good 'driving days' are now getting slim (maybe 1 in 10 or so...) but isn't too cold yet, I decided now is the time to tackle the leaky torque-ball seal. I ordered the new seal and shims from Bob's the other day. While waiting for the new parts to arrive I disassembled the torque-ball and am cleaning-up the pieces for reassembly. Fortunately, everything came apart without any drama. Here are pictures of the inner and outer retainers and the ball showing the wear patterns. Here is a shot showing the inside of the ball and the driveshaft bushing. The bushing looks OK, there's no significant scoring. The worst pitting on the ball was at the top on the outside and bottom at the inside. I may fill the outer pits with some epoxy just to make sure a good seal... The cork seal looks to be original. It is very hard and appears to have shrunk. The tapered edge is really ragged and I think the sludge I wiped off the inside of the outer retainer contained some of the disintegrated seal material. The flat side that rides on the Belleville (i.e. spring) washer shows a deep groove/depression. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 5, 2022 Author Share Posted December 5, 2022 (edited) The torque-ball joint was very loose when I removed the torque tube. It immediately fell to the bottom and I could move it around with no noticeable resistance. I couldn't feel any obvious longitudinal movement. It looks like there were two shim gaskets between the inner and outer retainers. There were thin paper gaskets between the inner retainer & transmission and the outer retainer & inner retainer (along with the shims). I cleaned-up the torque ball with 220 followed by 500 wet/dry sandpaper and WD-40. I then took it over to my buffer and gave the outer surface a quick pass on the wheel. It looks pretty good and the surface is smooth. The only thing I may do is fill those small pits at the top of the ball with some JB-Weld followed by the 500 grit paper. Still have a little clean-up to do on the transmission and mount. I'm soaking the transmission mount rubbers in a bucket of detergent and water to remove all of the transmission oil. Hopefully the new seal will arrive in a day or two and I can begin the reassembly. In the meantime, I'll modify a couple of bolts to serve as torque tube alignment pins to aid in getting the torque tube back into place on the ball flange. I removed the clutch inspection cover so that I can turn the flywheel if necessary to align the drive shaft and U-Joint splines. More to come... Edited December 5, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history) 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 ENJOY! Or not. And if you get a perfect seal, you will be the first. Ben 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 5, 2022 Author Share Posted December 5, 2022 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 I guess I'm next... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 5, 2022 Author Share Posted December 5, 2022 If it winds-up anything less than 1 oz. per 100 miles I'll call it success! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 And if you get a perfect seal, check the transmission oil. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 I got my torque ball out a couple of days ago and it is pitted in the same spot. I sanded those pits out. I hope that was ok to do, now I'm kind of worried that I did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 If you hand sanded the ball, it is unlikely you did any damage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 4 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said: ENJOY! Or not. And if you get a perfect seal, you will be the first. Oh ye of little faith! I was under my car yesterday doing something else, and noticed that my torque ball is still dry after replacing the seals two-and-a-half years ago. If I can do it, anyone can! 😄 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 27 minutes ago, neil morse said: Oh ye of little faith! I was under my car yesterday doing something else, and noticed that my torque ball is still dry after replacing the seals two-and-a-half years ago. If I can do it, anyone can! 😄 My 1937 Model 61's torque ball has been leak free for over 10 years and quite a few thousand miles. I really think the secret is regular use. Unfortunately, I recently discovered that the torque ball seal on my 1937 Roadmaster 80C was leaking. It is currently receiving a new seal at a local shop. I had a guy who had done the job before a number of times over the years who was willing to do another one so it is on his lift as we speak. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 EmTee, did you remove the rear axle or simply pull it back with a come-along or something? I'm gearing up for the job and I'm debating how best to get it done. I'm going to pull the trans and put in a new clutch while I'm at it, but only because I don't want to go in there again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said: I guess I'm next... Nope........I'm doing one the weekend. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said: EmTee, did you remove the rear axle or simply pull it back with a come-along or something? I'm gearing up for the job and I'm debating how best to get it done. I'm going to pull the trans and put in a new clutch while I'm at it, but only because I don't want to go in there again. I pulled the U bolts and shock links........and slid it back while still sitting on the jack. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 6 hours ago, EmTee said: Since the weather has turned a corner and good 'driving days' are now getting slim (maybe 1 in 10 or so...) but isn't too cold yet, I decided now is the time to tackle the leaky torque-ball seal. I ordered the new seal and shims from Bob's the other day. While waiting for the new parts to arrive I disassembled the torque-ball and am cleaning-up the pieces for reassembly. Fortunately, everything came apart without any drama. Here are pictures of the inner and outer retainers and the ball showing the wear patterns. Here is a shot showing the inside of the ball and the driveshaft bushing. The bushing looks OK, there's no significant scoring. The worst pitting on the ball was at the top on the outside and bottom at the inside. I may fill the outer pits with some epoxy just to make sure a good seal... The cork seal looks to be original. It is very hard and appears to have shrunk. The tapered edge is really ragged and I think the sludge I wiped off the inside of the outer retainer contained some of the disintegrated seal material. The flat side that rides on the Belleville (i.e. spring) washer shows a deep groove/depression. Does anyone make the cork seal? I damaged mine last time, so I knew I would be doing the job twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 1 hour ago, edinmass said: Does anyone make the cork seal? I damaged mine last time, so I knew I would be doing the job twice. It's no longer made of cork, but Bob's Automobilia has them. https://bobsautomobilia.com/shop/rr-axle-housing/transmission-shifter-parts/torque-ball-seal-kit-1936-48-s-60-70-90-tbk-343l/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 "The torque ball is supported between an inner and outer retainer which are centrally located and bolted to the transmission rear bearing retainer. The retainers are copper plated and the bearing surfaces of the torque ball are also plated to prevent scoring during break-in. " Maybe if they were copper plated again.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 We have a 1934……so we are SOL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 52 minutes ago, edinmass said: We have a 1934……so we are SOL. Not sure which series your 1934 is but they do have some 1934 torque ball seal products. You might call them if you need a series that they don't have advertised. They can probably direct you to their supplier who might be able to help you. https://bobsautomobilia.com/shop/rr-axle-housing/transmission-shifter-parts/torque-ball-shim-kit-1934-55-s-40-tbs-346/ https://bobsautomobilia.com/shop/rr-axle-housing/transmission-shifter-parts/torque-ball-tapered-seal-1934-48see-list-tbs-343/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 Ours is series 50……..the seal doesn’t fit. Story of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 3 minutes ago, edinmass said: Ours is series 50……..the seal doesn’t fit. Story of my life. Ed, check it out further with Buick parts manual, as the 1934-35 S40s and S50s use the same (smaller) transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 Hi George, Buick is new to me, and I have been told they are different……obviously I have no clue. I’ll make a call in the morning. Every time I try and source mechanical parts they don’t fit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 A potential solution if the seal itself is has the same crossectional shape and dimensions is to get one of a larget diameter, cut a section out and use "crazy glue" to glue it to the right diamerer. This is done often with "O" rings 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 6, 2022 Author Share Posted December 6, 2022 The replacement seal and shims came in the mail today. I ordered both the seal kit and shims; it looks like I didn't need to order the shims separately as the seal kit appears to have them. The shims were only a few dollars, so I ordered them just in case. I guess I'll have some spares... The replacement seal looks to be made from neoprene, or some black, rubber-like material instead of cork. Probably a good improvement. I didn't get anything done today because the washing machine drain pump decided to crap the bed. I'll try to get back at it tomorrow. Hey, @Matt Harwood - I disconnected the Panhard bar, shock absorbers, emergency brake cable and the torque-tube mounting bolts. I have the rear of the car raised about 6 or 8 inches, with the tires still on the floor and supported with jack stands on both sides of the frame just before the axle kick-up. I then hooked one end of a ratchet strap on the lowest coil of the left spring, ran it back under the gas tank, up and around the center of the rear bumper, then back under the tank and to the lowest coil of the right spring. I then tightened the ratchet strap, which pulled the axle back until it disengaged from the torque-ball. I had to pull it back about 4 or 5 inches; basically as far as I could without completely removing the Panhard bar. This method seems to have worked well; we'll see how hard it is to get everything lined-up and back together again... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 1 hour ago, edinmass said: Hi George, Buick is new to me, and I have been told they are different……obviously I have no clue. I’ll make a call in the morning. Every time I try and source mechanical parts they don’t fit. The S40 & 50 diffs are different, and the torque tubes are different lengths (S40=117, S50=119) but the transmissions are the same. Damn near everything is different among the series, but for that particular seal it's worth checking out the Master Chassis Parts Manual for those years. I mean the manual itself, not just what vendors claim. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 You are correct.....what the vendors claim isn't very accurate when working on a 34 Series 50. Seems like it's the odd man out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 6, 2022 Author Share Posted December 6, 2022 (edited) The TB rebuild kit I bought from Bob's came from 'Best Gasket' -- maybe give them a call? https://bestgasket.com/custom-gaskets/ Edited December 6, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 6, 2022 Author Share Posted December 6, 2022 I didn't spend a lot of time on the car today, but I did finish cleaning up the parts and hit the bolts with my wire wheel. Here's a picture showing how the car is currently sitting in my garage and the strap arrangement that I used to pull the rear axle backward. Here's how the wheel looks: The straps attach to the lowest spring coil on each side and loops around the center of the bumper. Here is a shot from behind the transmission, looking forward. Note that I had to remove the cross member and the transmission mount to provide access necessary to remove the torque-ball. I have my small trolley jack under the transmission while the cross member is out to ensure that everything goes back where it was originally. The following is picture of the new rubber TB seal compared with the old cork one. The other thing I did today was attempt a dry fit of the TB with new shims. The instructions say that the kit includes: (1) 0.0025", (1) 0.0060", (1) 0.0100" and (1) 0.0150" shim gaskets (4 total). What I found, after measuring them, was: (1) 0.0025", (1) 0.0075", (1) 0.009" and (2) 0.015" (5 total). (The extra shim kit contained the same pieces.) I blindly tried the 0.0075" with the 0.009" (~0.017" total) and it was too tight. I also failed to read the instructions carefully enough, as I made the test fit without applying the moly grease... I took it apart and decided to measure the shims that I removed to get an idea of how much I should expect to install with the new ones. The TB originally had three shims between the inner and outer retainer having thicknesses measuring .014", .013" and .005" for a total of approximately 0.032". I think that my next attempt will be using (2) 0.009" shims (one from the extra package), (1) 0.0025" and (1) 0.0075". That amounts to 0.028", which is 12% less than what I removed. The TB was quite loose, so I think something less that what was there is needed. If 0.028" is still too tight, I'll try using (2) 0.015" shims. Hopefully one of those combinations works and I don't need a third attempt... I probably won't get back to this until Thursday, as I have some other appointments to attend to tomorrow. The last thing I did today was smear some epoxy into the pits on the seal side of the TB surface. I'll sand that down with some wet/dry paper and make it smooth before applying the moly grease and making the next shim trial. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted December 7, 2022 Share Posted December 7, 2022 Regardless of which shims you use, getting the ball shimmed so with no seal there is very slight drag is most important to get an effective seal, You want virtually no axial play. Also lubing the sealing surface is important on final assembly. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 9, 2022 Author Share Posted December 9, 2022 Today I applied the moly lube to the torque-ball and installed it without the seal using two 0.015" shims (0.030" total). It is pretty tight. I can't move it by hand, but can using a short piece of wood in the yoke. It feels 'notchy' when moved to the extremes, but pretty smooth when movement is limited to the normal range of motion (i.e., the shiny areas on the retainers). Does that sound right? It's definitely tighter than it was when I disassembled it. When I removed the shaft, the TB fell to the bottom on under its own weight. I'm inclined to leave the two 0.015 shims, and install the seal. Agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 Tim, That sounds about right. Most of the time it is that "normal" position. If you get it any tighter, you might have problems. Isnt that grease fun? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 9, 2022 Author Share Posted December 9, 2022 41 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said: Isnt that grease fun? Yeah, but I used a nitrile glove so as not to mess up my manicure! They don't provide any to spare - I had just enough to cover both sides of the torque ball. I smeared what was left on my glove on the shiny spots on the retainers. I have some moly chassis grease that I may smear on any bare spots when I reassemble it for the final time with the seal in place. All of the internal torque-ball and retainers surfaces were covered with transmission oil when I disassembled it, so it seems the grease is really only needed during the 'break-in' period while the oil works its way back there again... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 I left the torque ball bolts slightly loose so it would be easier to align the drive shaft with the U joint on reassembly, then toightened the bolts after the torque tube was bolted to the ball flange, It would be a bear to align those parts with the drag of the new seal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 10, 2022 Author Share Posted December 10, 2022 (edited) Today I removed the torque-ball and installed the seal with its spring washer. I decided to proceed with the two 0.015" shim gaskets between the inner and outer retainers. Before re-installing it for the last time I smeared the moly paste around one more time and wiped some on the beveled surface of the seal before putting it on the torque-ball. I then installed the spring washer in the outer retainer before assembling the TB and outer retainer. I then installed them on the transmission along with the inner retainer, which was installed previously. I tightened all six bolts to seat everything properly, realizing that the four lower bolts would need to come out in order to install the transmission mount. I wanted the TB to be fully assembled before reattaching the torque tube in order prevent the torque tube from altering the alignment or interfering with proper interfacing of the retainers and shim pack. With the torque-ball assembled, I installed the flange gasket from the kit and started releasing the ratchet strap, allowing the rear axle to begin moving forward. I loosened the straps until the driveshaft splines just met the torque ball socket. At that point, I used a crescent wrench on the torque-ball flange to line-up the face of the TB flange with the face of the torque-tube flange and rotated the TB flange to align the bolt holes. Since I already had the flywheel cover off I shifted the transmission into 3rd gear and used a small prybar against the ring gear to turn the flywheel just enough to align the torque ball U-joint splines with the complimentary driveshaft splines. I smeared a little grease on the driveshaft splines before completely releasing the ratchet strap. At that point I was able to wiggle the torque tube and push forward to engage the driveshaft with the joint socket. This got the two flanges close enough to each other to allow me to use @usnavystgc's vice-grip trick to pull them close enough to get the lowest bolt started. From that point, I was able to work my way around the flange one bolt at a time until all six were finger tight. I then tightened them fully in a criss-cross pattern. Next, I reassembled the transmission mount loosely to the crossmember. I had disassembled the transmission mount to clean all of the accumulated oil from the rubber isolators. With the mount loosely assembled to the crossmember, I reinstalled the mount to the torque-ball by removing the four lower torque-ball retainer bolts, positioning the mount and then re-installed and tightened the bolts. With the torque-ball bolts reinstalled for the last time, I then re-installed the crossmember. Once the crossmember bolts were tight, I finally tightened the two carriage bolts that attach the transmission mount to the crossmember. That's where I stopped for today. All I have left to do is re-install the flywheel cover, re-connect the rear brake hose, bleed the rear brakes, reattach the emergency brake cables, reattach the shock absorbers and reattach the Panhard bar. Tomorrow is supposed to be mid-40s and sunny, so I hope to have the car buttoned-up before lunch so that I can take it for a test drive tomorrow afternoon. Following the test drive, I plan to drain and refill the transmission, check fasteners and hopefully call it done... Edited December 10, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 10, 2022 Author Share Posted December 10, 2022 Since I see @38Buick 80C saw this, I'll ask a question... What color should the transmission be? Mine is currently engine color (green). While cleaning it up to remove all of the oil that slobbered out of the leaky TB, I noticed what looked like black paint under the green. To be 'correct', should the transmission be black? I assume the bellhousing should be engine color. I'm not going to change anything right now, but would like to know for future reference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38Buick 80C Posted December 10, 2022 Share Posted December 10, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, EmTee said: Since I see @38Buick 80C saw this, I'll ask a question... What color should the transmission be? Mine is currently engine color (green). While cleaning it up to remove all of the oil that slobbered out of the leaky TB, I noticed what looked like black paint under the green. To be 'correct', should the transmission be black? I assume the bellhousing should be engine color. I'm not going to change anything right now, but would like to know for future reference... Bell housing is green no debate about that Trans is a bit more nuanced. I think, without documentation mind you, that different plants did different things. The model 87 that I'm doing now which was untouched from a drive train perspective seems to also had black paint on it from the factory, so that's what I went with and then I found green and cream marks on it that I duplicated. My 80C I only found a big green mark on it which was so thick and so nice I left original paint. The rest of the trans is unpainted bare metal. That car had more stuff done to it over time so I'm less confident of anything being original from that car, but the big green spooge of paint certainly is. See this post for how I did my 87 Edited December 10, 2022 by 38Buick 80C (see edit history) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 11, 2022 Author Share Posted December 11, 2022 I finished the reassembly today, but not in time for a test drive before dusk. Oh well, Tuesday or Wednesday look like dry days, so hopefully I'll be able to take the test drive then. I would have finished in time to drive today except I got a late start (it was COLD this morning) and reconnecting the hydraulic line to the rear brakes took longer than expected. The hex on the hardline fitting was half stripped before I tried to separate it from the hose at the torque tube. I stripped it the rest of the way during disassembly... No problemo - I cut the line just behind the flare and went to my brake fitting stash to get another tube nut, only to discover that I didn't have the size I needed - ugh... Sooooo I had to run to the parts store (bought 2 so I now have an extra) and picked up some brake fluid while I was there. The fitting debacle basically chewed-up the hour I would have had for a test drive... Anyway, when I got back, I re-terminated the line, screwed it together and bled the rear wheels. The rest of the reassembly (parking brake cable, shock absorbers and Panhard bar) all went without a hitch. The car is off the jackstands and back on the ground. Overall, the job went pretty smoothly -- hopefully the test drive will be successful. Stay tuned... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnavystgc Posted December 11, 2022 Share Posted December 11, 2022 @EmTee, that vise grip trick works great doesn't it? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted December 11, 2022 Author Share Posted December 11, 2022 9 minutes ago, usnavystgc said: ...that vise grip trick works great doesn't it? Yes sir - and you're right; squeezing the handle pulled the flanges together without much effort at all. Before the light bulb went off and I remembered your post, the stupid thing kept wanting to roll back when I let go of the torque tube! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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