My 1938 Buick Century Model 61

[countrytravler]

Good stuff going on here.

[EmTee]

So, since I removed the front seat to allow opening up the transmission, I decided to make some adjustments to the upholstery.  One item was the robe rail.  When Matt recovered the seat he didn't install the robe rail, but included the pieces in one of the boxes that came with the car.  So, I figured this might be the opportunity to install it.  I had to first find the mounting locations on the seat.  To do that, I removed the hidem and peeled-back the cloth on the seat back to expose the structure.

 

 

Next, I gathered the pieces in an attempt to figure out how they fit together and attach to the seat back.

 

 

The robe rail is basically a hose with a chain running through the center.  The ends of the chain screw into holes in the socket.

 

 

Then the escutcheon is fitted over the hole and attached with a screw.

 

 

As best i can figure, the 'trick' is the robe rail (the hose) needs to be just long enough to fit between the escutcheons, because it needs to be 'scooched' over far enough to expose the screw hole on the  escutcheon so the screw can be installed.  Now the problem -- the robe rail is 2 ~ 3 inches too short!  (This may be why it wasn't installed before...)

 

So, I can get a longer piece of hose and I have enough extra brown vinyl to make a new one, however, I don't think the vinyl looks appropriate or as original.  My understanding is the robe rail should be covered with a fabric having a pattern similar to what is typically seen on windlace.  Since I can't go back to LeBarron-Bonney for a replacement, I'm interested to hear if anyone else has suggestions for a source for a replacement robe rail.  Thanks in advance!

[dibarlaw]

EmTee:

Sorry, but this was the only photo of what my 1937 robe cord looked like. The sewn fabric sleeve looked to be original. Same pattern as the windlace with a degraded rubber hose covering the chain. The mounts on the 37 are somewhat heavier. Someone with a 1938 should chime in.

[Gary W]

Here is my discussion on installing my robe rails.   The Model 48 has a split folding seat, so it has two smaller robe rails instead of one longer one.  But the installation is the same.

 

 

 

If you need help with fabrics, rear shade, tassels....  Marcus is really great.  He may have the solution for you:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MCHinson]

The 1937 and 1938 Century robe rails are very different. LeBaron Bonney failed to send me anything for the robe rail so I had a local upholstery shop do that one for me. I never attempted to install it, since I was not happy with the vinyl covering that they did it in and planned to try to have it recovered but, of course, sold the car first. They recovered the original chain, so what you have should fit. I think what you are missing is the screws to mount it. As I recall, one end was a long eyebolt and the other was a long screw. Those should attach to the last links in the chain and screw into the seat back. If you look in the parts box that the robe rail was in, you should have them. The small screws would only be used to mount the trim in your photos, they don't actually hold the robe rail. The long eyebolt and long screws screw into the seat back. I think originally it should have had two eybolts, but someone replaced one with a long screw sometime in the past. 

[EmTee]

10 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

The sewn fabric sleeve looked to be original.

Thanks Larry, that's the way I would expect it to look.  You're exactly right about the 'degraded rubber' hose.  It is softer/more flexible than a typical hose.

 

9 hours ago, Gary W said:

Here is my discussion on installing my robe rails.

Thanks Gary, I did go back and look at your thread before I started.  I thought it was ironic that the first set you received from LeBarron-Bonney were also a couple of inches too short.

 

9 hours ago, MCHinson said:

As I recall, one end was a long eyebolt and the other was a long screw. Those should attach to the last links in the chain and screw into the seat back. If you look in the parts box that the robe rail was in, you should have them. The small screws would only be used to mount the trim in your photos, they don't actually hold the robe rail. The long eyebolt and long screws screw into the seat back. I think originally it should have had two eybolts, but someone replaced one with a long screw sometime in the past. 

Yes, I have those fasteners.  One end of the chain was apparently held by a long flat-head wood screw, while the other must have used the funny-looking L-shaped 'nail' that was in the bag with the other parts.  I suppose the screw-end of the chain would be installed first, then the other end would be hammered into the seat back?  That would require some sort of a notched punch to hammer against.  In any case, The hose needs to be just long enough to fit simultaneously into the holes in both escutcheons, but short enough to allow it to be slipped into the opposite socket to provide access for attaching the chain and escutcheon screw.

 

Now that I have located the attachment points on the seat, I will likely reassemble the upholstery without installing the robe rail.  Meanwhile, I will keep looking for a more appropriate cover material.  Once I have the material I can make another attempt at installation.  Thanks for all of the comments and information!

[MCHinson]

22 minutes ago, EmTee said:

 

 

Yes, I have those fasteners.  One end of the chain was apparently held by a long flat-head wood screw, while the other must have used the funny-looking L-shaped 'nail' that was in the bag with the other parts.  

 

As I recall, to disassemble it, I unscrewed the screw from the passenger side and then removed the other fastener from the driver's side. Can you post a photo of that odd fastener? I thought it unscrewed and simply needed to be screwed in, but it has been a few years, so I might not be remembering it correctly. 

[EmTee]

23 hours ago, MCHinson said:

Can you post a photo of that odd fastener?

These are the fasteners that were bagged with the robe rail.  What appear at first like threads on the odd-looking 'bent nail' are actually rings.  It's not obvious to me whether the end using this would be installed first or last.  I guess the other end used a wood screw...

 

The small screw with the finish washer holds the escutcheon (I only have one of them).

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

That looks like the hardware that originally held it on when I got the car. If I recall correctly, I removed the long screw from the passenger side and then unscrewed the odd looking piece of hardware from the driver's side. Threaded or not, turning it counterclockwise allowed me to remove it. Obviously, it is not in great shape but maybe you can try screwing it in the driver's side and then try attaching the passenger side with the screw. If the original odd piece of hardware won't work, I would try a long screw on each side. 

[MCHinson]

One other thought, if that does not work, Dave Tacheny probably could help you with replacement hardware for it. 

[EmTee]

I think I can figure out how to get the chain ends attached to the seat; the issue now is finding some appropriate cover material...

[usnavystgc]

If any of those screws go into wood, put wood glue in the original holes and break as many toothpicks off into the hole as you can fit before you screw it in.  If the hole in the wood is oversized, it will take up that gap and allow you to use your original hardware.  

 

The escutcheon screws are available at Ace Hardware complete with finishing washer.

[EmTee]

Well, it's been awhile, but I finally got the front seat back in the car so it is driveable again.  While the seat was out for the transmission investigation (ref. above) I repaired the lower cushion spring support which had fallen apart after 85 years.  The bottom spring frame consists of a heavy steel wire lattice to which the bottom of the coils are attached.  Most every weld between the individual lattice rods and the circumferential wire had broken loose, allowing individual coils to shift and the frame to deform.  I straightened the rods and re-tacked them together with my MIG welder.  I then inserted a piece of wire cloth with 1/4" square openings between the springs and the spring frame.  I then hog-ringed everything together again.  The wire cloth allowed more secure clamping of the spring bottoms to ensure they stay where they belong.  Before reinstalling the cover I added some additional cotton batting to the seat surface to even-out the surface.  Lastly, I screwed the assembled seat cushion to a piece of plywood cut to fit into the seat frame.  The complete seat assembly came out looking good and definitely feels firmer.

 

I also sent the robe rail to Marcus at @Gary W's recommendation.

 

 

He has some windlace material that is a perfect match for what is in the car.  He's going to use that to recover the robe-rail hose.  I'll post pictures once I receive it back from him.

 

Went for a drive yesterday for the first time this year.  Good news is the car ran fine and a check of the torque ball area shows it's still dry!  On the other hand, the starter sounds a little 'draggy'.  I noticed that intermittently last fall and removed the starter for inspection.  I cleaned-up the solenoid contacts and generally cleaned-up the pieces without noticing anything obviously bad.  Now it seems to be happening more often than not, so I will have to troubleshoot further.  I plan to start by making voltage drop measurements along the starter circuit, beginning at the battery posts.  I'm assuming that the battery voltage should remain at least 4 Volts or better while cranking.  Battery electrolyte specific gravity is good, so the battery is charged and the ammeter behaved normally during the drive (high initial charge that tapered-off after a few miles).

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[EmTee]

I finally worked down my 'to-do' list to the point where I could attempt to install the refurbished robe rail.  I received the recovered robe rail from Marcus at Heritage Antique Automobile Interiors a few weeks ago.   Marcus removed the incorrect brown vinyl and replaced it with a material that matches the windlace pattern on the car.  (Thanks to @Gary W for the recommendation!). While I had the front seat out of the car last winter I removed the seat back material far enough to locate and expose the mounting sockets.  I was then able to do a test-fit which caused me to add a few links to the chain (ref. above).  Marcus replaced and extended the hose material accordingly before recovering it.  The first step was locating the sockets, which I then marked with masking tape before cutting slits in the seat back material to allow installation.

 

 

The biggest Issues I had were identifying the correct screws for mounting the chains and escutcheons and then actually installing the escutcheon screws, as they are covered by the robe rail, but can't be installed until after the chain is secured.  I have no idea how this was done when the car was originally built, but it took me about two hours of 'fiddling' to finally get everything secured in place.  I will say, however, that the final result really looks nice - and it now looks as I expect it would have when new.

 

 

 

Crossed this task off the list... 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by EmTee
typo (see edit history)

[usnavystgc]

It looks fabulous!!!!

[EmTee]

Marcus does nice work! 

 

And he just happened to have the matching windlace fabric - which really makes the final result look like it belongs there!

Edited June 15, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[EmTee]

The starter has been dragging on occasion since last fall, although the frequency of occurrence has been increasing.  I checked voltages a couple of days ago and had ~5.7V at the positive (battery) bolt and ~4.4V at the bolt that feeds the starter motor (load) when this happens while cranking.  It has never failed to start, but it sounds like something is grinding when it does this, so I want to get it resolved ASAP.  I removed the starter yesterday and completely disassembled the solenoid.  I found the copper bolts were burned, however, one was much worse than the other.  (I had filed them both flat a few months ago.)  The copper disc was also heavily pitted - more so than I remember from the last time I had this apart.

 

 

 

I think the two copper bolt heads that form the starter switch contacts were not on the same plane.  Also, I looked at the copper disc and the shaft that it rides on.  The shaft was very dirty and felt like it may be sticking a bit in the solenoid bore.

 

 

I cleaned-up the shaft with a piece of steel wool and used some electrical contact cleaner on a Q-tip to swab the solenoid bore.  I guess the disc looked OK to me last time because I didn't flip it over then.  This time, however, I decided to flip the disc over since the used side was deeply pitted.  I ran my flat file across the virgin side and discovered that the disc was also slightly warped.

 

 

 

I set it on my vise and gave it a couple of taps with a hammer and then dressed the virgin side with the file so it was flat.  I then re-shimmed the bolts to give them both at approximately the same gap to the disc.

 

 

I also addressed Bloo's comment about testing the two separate coils in the solenoid ('operate' & 'hold').  They are tied together at the relay.

 

 

I unsoldered the two wires from the ring terminal at the relay and separated them.

 

 

I checked continuity of the operating coil to ground and measured resistance (~0.5 Ohms).  The main (hold) coil was isolated from the case (i.e., "ground") as well as the other coil and had a resistance of about 0.25 Ohms.  So, I am calling the solenoid coils good.  I also used a 1/8" drill bit as a gauge to check the pinion throw depth, which was OK.  While I was at it I also cleaned the relay points with contact cleaner on a piece of cardboard and checked the relay point gap (0.031") and air gap (0.010").

 

I reassembled the starter and wiped out some shiny metal shavings that had collected in the bellhousing adjacent to the starter mount before reinstalling it.

 

 

It looks as though the voltage on the 'hold' coil was marginal whenever this problem occurred and the solenoid couldn't keep the pinion gear firmly engaged while cranking (which explains the grinding noise).  Once I had the starter installed and the wiring reconnected the initial functional test was OK.  I subsequently rechecked the voltage drop across the starter switch at the two copper bolts (while cranking).  When the starter was acting up the drop was 1.3 Volts - which is why I removed it for inspection.  The post-repair measurements are: 6.3 Volts at the battery, 5.7 Volts at the positive starter switch bolt (the 'hot' side) and 5.5 Volts at the other bolt (the load side).  Based on this result (0.2 Volt drop) I think it is now fixed... 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by EmTee
typo (see edit history)

[EmTee]

Good news:  The starter has been working great - no more dragging or grinding.

 

Bad news: What I thought might be a choke warmup issue turned-out to be a faulty one year-old condenser.  Fortunately, it died shortly after turning the corner from my street.  With help from a Good Samaritan, I was able to get the car off the road and onto the shoulder.  I walked home and threw some tools in my truck.  I removed the air cleaner to see what the choke was doing and found it 2/3 ~ 3/4 open, which seemed about right for where the engine was temperature-wise.  I stroked the throttle by hand and saw a steady stream from the accelerator pump, so it definitely had fuel.  With those observations I turned attention to the distributor.  I removed the cap and opening the points I saw a pretty fair amount of white oxidation accumulated on the contacts.  (I had replaced the points & condenser about a year ago prior to the Glidden Tour.)  I ran my points file through the breaker set and attempted to start the engine - no dice.  Next, I removed the condenser and reinstalled the old one that I had replaced last year.  I then attempted once again to start the engine.  this time, however, the car started!  I let it idle for a couple of minutes before I got in and drove it back to my garage.  With the car back safely in the garage, I had to 'hoof-it' once more back to the scene of the crime to recover my truck.

 

With the car in the garage I removed the points and condenser.  I replaced both with new Echlin parts from NAPA.  I set the points gap to 0.015" and then verified the dwell angle of 31° with my dwell meter.  The engine immediately felt like it was running better than before the failure.  Looking back, the stumble that occurred a couple of weeks ago in virtually the same location (turning onto the road from my street) which I attributed to the choke was obviously the condenser on its death bed.  I hope the Mexican Echlin parts hold-up better than the components of Far-East origin that I removed... 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by EmTee
typo (see edit history)

[DonMicheletti]

It used to be that plugs, points and condenser was a 10,000 mile ritual. Now I wont change an old condenser.  Too many complaints these days with new ones.

 

I hope,you keep that "old", working, condenser in the glove box.

[MCHinson]

I once tuned up my 1937 Model 61. After the tune up, it would not start. I removed the new out of the box imported condenser and reintalled the old one. The car was back to running. I now always install a condenser and drive the car a bit to make sure it is running well. I then remove that condenser and put it in the glove box as a known good one and install another to use. If the car ever stops running, I will first reinstall the known good condenser, as the most likely cause of the failure.  

[EmTee]

FYI, I decided to perform a postmortem examination of the failed condenser.  I used a tubing cutter to cut the crimped end from the condenser body and opened it up.  Here's what I found inside:

 

 

Basically a roll of metalized film rolled-up into a cylinder and jammed between a contact attached to the wire lead on one end and the case at the other.  It looks to me as about the cheapest way possible to fabricate a capacitor.  The problem was evident when I looked at the ends of the foil roll.  Black carbon tracks appear on both ends of the foil roll and the mating contacts.  Obviously this has been degrading over time and finally reached the point where it ceased to function as a capacitor.

 

 

 

Since I went this far, I decided to unroll the film just to see whether there was any evidence of internal breakdown.

 

 

I didn't see anything suspicious internally.  The foil looked clean and the discoloration was limited to the edges of the film that was in (loose) contact with the wire lead and metal case.  Once completely unwound, the strip was ~79 inches long.

 

 

 

I do think I'll throw the known-good condenser in the glove box with a screwdriver.  The new Echlin (NAPA) points and condenser were made in Mexico.

 

 

 

Hopefully the new condenser provides better service than the one it replaces.  I believe the severe pitting on the point set resulted from the condenser failing to provide adequate capacity as the internal connections degraded.

[old-tank]

I go to eBay and buy NORS old stock parts made when the car was contemporary.  And I never change the condenser unless the parts are pitted.  Usually get 30,000 miles out of points and plugs.

[EmTee]

9 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Usually get 30,000 miles out of points and plugs.

At this point, I'd settle for 5,000! 

[Machine Gun]

Never had a problem with parts from NAPA, at least not yet. I've given up on buying most anything from DIY store chains except for stuff that's not critical to keeping the car on the road.

[DonMicheletti]

EmTee,

I like your condenser post mortem. I had wondered what was actually inside one.

 

It is interesting. My 1918 Buick, with an original ignition coil, has the capacitor built in and it is not replacable.

[drhach]

I wonder why a person couldn't just put a typical radial (or otherwise) capacitor in the system in lieu of an automotive type condenser. It seems like you could have a more assured supply and get better quality components. 

[EmTee]

1 hour ago, drhach said:

I wonder why a person couldn't just put a typical radial (or otherwise) capacitor in the system

Somewhere on the forum there is a thread where someone installed a capacitor inside one of these condenser cans.  I'm thinking about doing the same thing...

 

https://www.amazon.com/Metallized-Capacitors-elektrische-metallisierte-Polyester-Filmkondensatoren/dp/B09FDNZDPF/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3GITM32K8SJWE&keywords=0.22+uF+Film+Capacitor&qid=1689012551&sprefix=0.22+uf+film+capacitor%2Caps%2C101&sr=8-3

 

 

0.22 uF as specified in the shop manual.

[Edwin The Kid]

On 8/7/2022 at 5:59 PM, EmTee said:

 

OK, we can make that happen!

 

Attention: @Machine Gun, @JohnD1956, @KAD36, @BUICK RACER's brother, Franklin Trekers and anyone/everyone else interested -- reserve a day the first week of August 2023 for a visit to the NE Classic Car museum - details to follow when the date gets closer...  

I will once again be at the trek this year in the first week of August! However, Cazenovia College recently closed, and the trek has been moved to Schenectady. If we can make some sort of meetup happen I'm still down! 

[EmTee]

I've penciled-in 2 August in Saratoga Springs.  I believe the Franklins are supposed to be at the museum that day.  I was hoping to intercept them somewhere on their journey from Schenectady to the museum. 

[Machine Gun]

I'm in!

[EmTee]

https://www.franklincar.org/news/2023/69th.Franklin.Trek.Notice.pdf

 

[EmTee]

It's been a little over a year and roughly 2,500 miles since I last checked my Gano and stocking filters.  In preparation for coolant drain, rinse and refill I decided to check...

 

 

 

Similar to last time (circa June 2022) there were only a couple of flakes in the Gano screen.  As before, there was roughly a heaping tablespoon of fine 'rusty crumbs' caught in the stocking.  Given the time and mileage that has elapsed, it seems that the rate of accumulation has decreased (good news).  That said, I'm still amazed at how effective the stocking is at removing this stuff and keeping it out of my radiator core.  (Thanks again @Grimy!)

 

After rinsing everything clean, I reinstalled both the Gano and stocking filters.  My tip for installing the stocking is to use a piece of rubber hose (e.g., fuel line) to poke the stocking into the upper radiator tank.  Next, after folding the open end back over the hose nipple I applied about 1 1/2 turns of electrical tape over the stocking, starting right at the edge of the opening.  I then trimmed the tape and stocking to 3/8" ~ 1/2" wide using a sharp razor blade (the nylon is tough stuff).  This makes the stocking lie flat and tight to the nipple and allows the hose to slip over without grabbing the stocking.  That keeps the edge of the stocking completely under the hose and clamp to prevent any coolant from weeping out from between the nipple and the hose, which will happen if any stocking material is exposed.

 

At this point, I feel confident that this can just become an annual maintenance check.  Next year I may decide to reinstall the reproduction 'Buick' upper hose and delete the Gano.  I will likely keep the stocking, however, as I see no reason not to. 

[Grimy]

46 minutes ago, EmTee said:

After rinsing everything clean, I reinstalled both the Gano and stocking filters.  My tip for installing the stocking is to use a piece of rubber hose (e.g., fuel line) to poke the stocking into the upper radiator tank.  Next, after folding the open end back over the hose nipple I applied about 1 1/2 turns of electrical tape over the stocking, starting right at the edge of the opening.  I then trimmed the tape and stocking to 3/8" ~ 1/2" wide using a sharp razor blade (the nylon is tough stuff).  This makes the stocking lie flat and tight to the nipple and allows the hose to slip over without grabbing the stocking.  That keeps the edge of the stocking completely under the hose and clamp to prevent any coolant from weeping out from between the nipple and the hose, which will happen if any stocking material is exposed.

Excellent ideas, @EmTee!!  Thank you!

[Machine Gun]

The stocking doesn't impede coolant flow enough to make a noticeable difference in temperature when things get hot? If you read some of my other posts you guys know how paranoid I am about engine temperature.

[NC-car-guy]

1 hour ago, Machine Gun said:

The stocking doesn't impede coolant flow enough to make a noticeable difference in temperature when things get hot? If you read some of my other posts you guys know how paranoid I am about engine temperature.

I have done this with all my cars.  The one time I forgot and went too long without checking the stocking, it actually burst through.  Even the nailhead guys at Centerville auto recommend doing this. 

[EmTee]

23 hours ago, Machine Gun said:

The stocking doesn't impede coolant flow enough to make a noticeable difference in temperature when things get hot?

No, and one of the advantages of the stocking is that it stretches.  The entire stocking is the filter, so anything that it catches gets pushed to the end (i.e., the toe) and the rest of the sock is wide open.  The only issue I can see would be as Matt noted, where if left too long, its possible that the rust particles (iron oxide) may chew through the nylon and escape.  That said, the stocking material is really strong and as I said in my case, annual checks should be fine.

[EmTee]

I drained, rinsed and refilled the cooling system yesterday.  The old coolant from the radiator looked good.  I did get a very small amount of those fine particles (sand-like) from the waterjacket drain.  I'm thinking I may crack that open every now and then to let any sediment out and then top-off the level.  I refilled the system with Zerex G05 based on @Bloo's research regarding its better anti-foaming performance since this is a non-pressurized system.

 

[Edwin The Kid]

Saw @EmTee at the Franklin Trek on Wednesday! Was great to meet you! 

 

[EmTee]

Likewise - and here's a picture as proof:

 

 

I enjoyed hearing about the 'GS Train' from Idaho to Spokane and I got an update on the '67 Skylark project.  I'm still trying to figure out he gets in and out of his Corvair! 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

He is a tall one!   And gets around for an Iowa [ farm?] boy. Met him in Spokane.

 

 

 

  Ben