1951 Kaiser convertible NOT MINE

[B Jake Moran]

Marketplace - Estate sale antique cars | Facebook

 

My dad needs to sell his old collection of cars. There is all kinds of things. check some pictures. Can only put 10 pics in. some run great some need some tinkering some need overhaul call for info at [hidden information] these are my dad's cars I just put ad in for him as he doesn't do social media. Some other cars he has is a 95 Ranger short bed pickup that has been converted to Electric with the 5-speed still in it an old Packard a 55 DeSoto with a 331 Hemi a 68 Cadillac 2 door with 472 a. 51 Kaiser Dragon coupe convertible a 54 olds 98 4dr with all options power windows seats and AC. List of available cars and other stuff 1981 citicar electric car (runs on golf cart batteries) 1955 Olds 98 four-door 1956 Desoto 330 Hemi 1968 Cadillac Coupe Deville with a 472 1951 Kaiser Dragon convertible V8 a very rare piece. Chinese wildfire 3 wheeled truck with less than a hundred miles 71 Honda 175 cc scrambler 46 Packard clipper straight 8 69 MG Midget 36 Chrysler airflow c 10 Imperial

 

[B Jake Moran]

For those who may not know, Kaiser Frazer never made a 1951 convertible.  

 

[The 55er]

And 1955 Desotos didn't have 331 Hemis. 

[B Jake Moran]

273?  

[supercub]

This method of selling won't get you good yields. You will get people wandering through your collection and walking away with nothing.

[The 55er]

8 minutes ago, B Jake Moran said:

273?  

1955 DeSotos had 291 Hemis and 1956 DeSotos had 330 Hemis. 

[B Jake Moran]

1936 C10 Airflow $27,000 asking

 

1951 Kaiser $22,000

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

Ka

On 11/16/2021 at 2:44 PM, B Jake Moran said:

For those who may not know, Kaiser Frazer never made a 1951 convertible.  

 

I believe Frazer produced 131 Convertibles in 1951 (source “Classic Car Database”).

I believe all were 4dr.  I believe this is NOT a factory convert. Maybe @nick8086 will weigh in.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Jeff Perkins / Mn (see edit history)

[nick8086]

I have a picture from the 80 of another one.. Not sure if I can find it..

 

It was a meet my dad got a picture of it..

 

https://classiccarsbay.com/for-sale-1951-kaiser-green-dragon-in-lawrence-kansas-33339

 

 

one of them..

 

 

I think the pic my dad had the car was blue..

 

 

The funny thing about that car.. in blue.. He pasted away.. and had 200 kaiser cars and two kaiser Darrin.. Nothing was online.. Just knew the family was #!$#@ over the stuff. The farm land was the $$$$$.. He had a lot of it..

 

found it..

 

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/1940s-and-1950s-kaiser-frazer-concept-cars.htm#pt2

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by nick8086 (see edit history)

[Joe Cocuzza]

1 hour ago, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

Ka

I believe Frazer produced 131 Convertibles in 1951 (source “Classic Car Database”).

I believe all were 4dr.  I believe this is NOT a factory convert. Maybe @nick8086 will weigh in.

K-F only made 4-door convertibles , from the factory, in 1949 & 1950 - (49 production - 65 cars) (50 production - 131 cars)

Also, this one has an Oldsmobile V8 in it which was NEVER offered by K-F

So, this is a car that someone "created" 

 

[SparkEE]

Previous thread on this:

 

 

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

7 hours ago, Joe Cocuzza said:

K-F only made 4-door convertibles , from the factory, in 1949 & 1950 - (49 production - 65 cars) (50 production - 131 cars)

Also, this one has an Oldsmobile V8 in it which was NEVER offered by K-F

So, this is a car that someone "created" 

 

Joe,

That is not the first time I have found incorrect information in the classic car database. Thank You!

 

Short interesting story….the late Ray Casperson had a K-F dealership in Bayport MN. He closed it in the 1950’s and did keep several K-F cars in his collection. One was a Frazer 4dr. Convertible which he called a 1951. It certainly could have been a carryover car from 1950, I do not know the whereabouts of that car now.

[jimkf]

Kaiser-Frazer factory produced a convertible for the 1949 and 1950 model years. Something like 87 were made in total in both the Kaiser and Frazer lines. With the 1951 model year selling well, having been introduced in March of 1950, KF explored the possibility of producing a Kaiser convertible using the new body style. So, they commissioned Derham Body Co of Rosemont, PA to put together at least one - some accounts say two - convertibles. One car still exists and has been at several KF conventions. 

 

This car is not the second unit, it's a custom build using parts from 1951 and 1953 Kaisers. It's been for sale for a while and has made its rounds on the various KF Facebook pages.

 

KF also produced a 1951 Frazer Manhattan convertible - in an attempt to use up the leftover bodies from the 1949-50 run. A total of 131 were produced and at one time I owned car number 129, the last known extant. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by jimkf (see edit history)

[jimkf]

Adding a couple pix of the aforementioned 1951 Frazer Manhattan convertible. I call them before and after...unfortunately, the before is the better looking car. It was sold new in Texas and then made its way to Ohio where it was traded in on a new Corvair in 1960. The dealer, Charlie Miller (C Miller Chevrolet) kept it on the showroom floor for a short time before selling it. The car had an engine rebuild and then was parked in a garage where both it and the car disintegrated. I found it in the late 90s and dragged it home, eventually selling it to a collector in Colorado. 

[Joe Cocuzza]

28 minutes ago, jimkf said:

Kaiser-Frazer factory produced a convertible for the 1949 and 1950 model years. Something like 87 were made in total in both the Kaiser and Frazer lines. With the 1951 model year selling well, having been introduced in March of 1950, KF explored the possibility of producing a Kaiser convertible using the new body style. So, they commissioned Derham Body Co of Rosemont, PA to put together at least one - some accounts say two - convertibles. One car still exists and has been at several KF conventions. 

 

This car is not the second unit, it's a custom build using parts from 1951 and 1953 Kaisers. It's been for sale for a while and has made its rounds on the various KF Facebook pages.

 

KF also produced a 1951 Frazer Manhattan convertible - in an attempt to use up the leftover bodies from the 1949-50 run. A total of 131 were produced and at one time I owned car number 129, the last known extant. 

You are correct in everything you said.

I was mistaken about the years. I knew about the "facelifted" 51's but did not mention them

I have a story about a 1949 Frazer 4-door Convertible that was an ongoing saga in my life for 25 years. That story did not end well for me as I never got the car........

[B Jake Moran]

5 hours ago, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

Joe,

That is not the first time I have found incorrect information in the classic car database. Thank You!

 

Short interesting story….the late Ray Casperson had a K-F dealership in Bayport MN. He closed it in the 1950’s and did keep several K-F cars in his collection. One was a Frazer 4dr. Convertible which he called a 1951. It certainly could have been a carryover car from 1950, I do not know the whereabouts of that car now.

Jeff

As Jim Lape likely points out above, there were 1951 Frazer convertibles.  yes, carryovers from the 1949-1950 builds.   I never meant to imply the above noted car was somehow a factory job.  I spoke to the seller last night, and he confirmed BUT, if could speak with some of the old time members, and go back and find it in my "Last Onslaught on Detroit" signed book by Richard Langworth - I'll bet some 51's were converted at the factory.   Also, as noted above - Olds was sought as the possible V8 provider by KF to add a V8 to the line up. 

 

So, even if this is just a "tribute" car, at least it is as close to what the factory was looking at as possible.  I mean, at some point someone could have put a small block Chevy in there!  Ugh.  

Edited November 18, 2021 by B Jake Moran (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Are the 1949-51 convertibles all convertible sedans? And I gather the chrome window frames are not removable in normal use?

 

How about the one-of-two Derham convertible that still survives? I looked for pictures of it online and found none. If any are posted, please post a link. How many doors does it have? Are it's window frames out of sight when the top and windows are down?

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Joe Cocuzza]

51 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Are the 1949-51 convertibles all convertible sedans? And I gather the chrome window frames are not removable in normal use?

 

How about the one-of-two Derham convertible that still survives? I looked for pictures of it online and found none. If any are posted, please post a link. How many doors does it have? Are it's window frames out of sight when the top and windows are down?

 

Yes they were all convertible sedans and yes the chrome window frames were NOT removable.

They were put there in order to strengthen the body because K-F did not build a convertible body but instead used a regular 4-door body and cut the roof off. If you look at them you can see that they left a section of the roof over the windshield for rigidity,too.

Those chrome window frames were tied into the frame so as to add rigidity to the frame and body. K-F also beefed up the frames.

I,too, have read "The Last Onslaught on Detroit" - several times.....

[B Jake Moran]

35 minutes ago, Joe Cocuzza said:

Yes they were all convertible sedans and yes the chrome window frames were NOT removable.

They were put there in order to strengthen the body because K-F did not build a convertible body but instead used a regular 4-door body and cut the roof off. If you look at them you can see that they left a section of the roof over the windshield for rigidity,too.

Those chrome window frames were tied into the frame so as to add rigidity to the frame and body. K-F also beefed up the frames.

I,too, have read "The Last Onslaught on Detroit" - several times.....

One of the best books on automotive history in my opinion.  

 

Joe is correct.  I owned a 1949 Polar Grey Kaiser Virginian.  In this case, the Virginian was supposedly the 1st "hardtop" made.  When KF decided it might need a halo car after sales started to slide on their 47-48 cars, someone suggested a convertible.  

 

Problem is, as Joe and others know, KF was strictly a 4 door company from the start.  Therefore, the only option was the 4 door convertible, and because the cost was prohibitive, they "created" a faux convertible look steel hardtop to use up the bodies assigned to the convertible program, and called it "The Virginian".   Yes the little glass piece in the middle never came down, but a person could unfasten it if so desired (2 large Phillips screws if I recall) 

 

KF convertibles were expensive, more than most convertibles at the time, and with a 6 cylinder flathead motor and no automatic when introduced.    You could get a Buick Super on a 122" wheelbase with straight 8 power and an automatic for less than a KF, and let's face it, KF dealerships were not as prevalent.    I suspect only loyal KF owners bought a convertible in 1949-1950, and 1951 was simply using up the bodies.  

 

Frazer ceased to be a brand except for carryover bodies in 1951.  Joe Frazer warned Henry Kaiser that they were over-building cars for a slightly depressed market for 1950.  Henry Kaiser famously said the "Kaisers don't retrench!" and there was a surplus of 1950 KF's and the end of the partnership.  Joe Frazer, a much better car guy than the Kaisers - was outed and gone.  

 

The old bodies was the surplus, which led to the "1951" Frazer to use up the bodies - the OLD bodies.  Meanwhile the 1951 Kaiser was a fresh new design by Howard "Dutch" Darrin which included the belt line dip you see on the "convertible" above.   

 

It's history now, but Kaiser made a lot of bad decisions.  In my historian opinion, once Joe left the company, I think they realized the automobile industry was hard and they were going to get out.   It's just history books now, but they came on big with the 1st slab sided cars (modern car architecture) in 1947, ran that as long as they could but did not really have the model year change concept introduced by Alfred Sloan.   

 

I kind of think they sat around in 1949 wondering what to do.  "Oh, we need to come up with something new?"  Uh, yes!   GM did it every year.    With no money for engineering, emphasis was on sizzle, the styling.   The Continental 6 flathead was all they had.  They purchased their automatics from GM.   They were done in my opinion in 1951.  

 

They somehow managed 4 years with the new body style but they had no follow up planned in 1952, so it was over, whether they said so or not. Henry J checked out.  

 

If this 1951 "convertible" is well sorted, it represents an anomaly, a curiosity in that it very well could have been and should have been produced.     The 1951 Kaisers were light years ahead of most of what was coming out of GM, Ford and Chrysler. Low, modern and beautiful, the 1951 Kaisers introduced the 2 door model to KF, the one this convertible is based off of.  

 

But, in my opinion, KF engineering was so far behind and so gun shy and scared of the Kaisers with Joe gone, that no one insisted on a 2 door hardtop.   As we know, GM introduced the modern 2 door hardtop in 1949, and 1950 saw close to 1 million 2 door hardtops made by all manufacturers.   Technology was there, so why didn't KF produce what would have been a smash hit of a 2 door hardtop?  

 

Scared?  Timid?   Henry J Kaiser was a helluva industrialist but a horrible car guy with an ego.  He was like another Henry from a different era, stubborn, surrounded by "Yes" men, to his own detriment.  Both men died rich and we assume happy, but both men in the end were abject failures when it counted the most. 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by B Jake Moran (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

On 11/16/2021 at 3:44 PM, B Jake Moran said:

For those who may not know, Kaiser Frazer never made a 1951 convertible.  

 

You know, I read the post header. Kaiser Convertible. I said out loud, "That's different".  Now I know why.

[jimkf]

K-F did look at building a two door hardtop. With the 1951 model year a two door sedan and two door club coupe were introduced so a workup was assembled to look at the viability of actually putting a true hardtop into production. Called the Sun Goddess, it had power windows - although only the fronts worked, window frames that rolled down with the glass and a four piece rear windshield (that leaked badly in the rain).

 

The car still exists and is nearing a completed restoration. Attached are a few pix. Those in black and white are from the 60s when my dad and I visited with the then owner who fitted 1954 tail lights on the car.

 

Somewhere I have pictures of the existing prototype 1951 Kaiser convertible. It started life as a 1951 two door sedan and was pulled off the line and sent out for the custom work. I'll post 'em when I find 'em.

 

Dutch Darrin, who did a lot of design work for K-F and was responsible for the 1951 Kaiser's design also built a hardtop using a scaled down version of the 1951 body. It sat on a chassis that was mid way between the Henry J and the Kaiser in size. Unfortunately, the car was destroyed in a storm while a Dutch's home in California.

[B Jake Moran]

Jim, 

Thanks as always for the back story and photos.  I guess I could have checked the Langworth book before commenting.  

 

Leaking or not, and this is looking a rear view mirror - KF needed that 2 door hardtop.  So many times KF decided to go conservative and NOT build something during a time of technological explosion in the auto industry.  High compression V8's, hardtops, power accessories. 

 

That's why I stated I think HJK and Edgar "gave up" on their car project after about 1952.  Meh, let's get back to shipbuilding and hospitlas.  

[58L-Y8]

jimkf:

Thanks for the status update on the Sun Goddess, I read the Langworth book forty years ago and still refer to it.   Both a hardtop and convertible would have helped bolster the 1951 line, though a V8 engine might have done much more for overall sales.  One of the unresolved problems with the Sun Goddess rear quarter windows was because of the narrow C-pillar and the window shape, they didn't figure out how to make them retract.  Notice other maker's hardtops of 1953-'54 such as Chevrolet, Pontiac and Studebaker had wider C-pillars which allowed the notched-back window to move through a slot into the quarter panel.  So many good ideas but a waning commitment by the Kaisers to the automotive operations doomed them to never go beyond the prototype stage.

Steve 

[TAKerry]

I was under the impression that kaiser was an industrialist first then a car guy. Didnt he buy Jeep/Willys? Had manufacturing in several countries, including by not limited to a run into the 60's producing cars in S America? Doesnt sound like bad decisions to me.

[B Jake Moran]

Can you imagine a 1951 Kaiser 2 door HT with about a 290 2 barrel V8 with maybe 145 hp?  I think they would have done fine.  

[58L-Y8]

17 hours ago, TAKerry said:

I was under the impression that kaiser was an industrialist first then a car guy. Didnt he buy Jeep/Willys? Had manufacturing in several countries, including by not limited to a run into the 60's producing cars in S America? Doesnt sound like bad decisions to me.

TAKerry:

 

Henry J Kaiser was indeed an industrialist first, cars an interest he dabbled-in but only entered into seriously when brought together with Joseph Frazer, head of Graham-Paige Corp. trying to relaunch an automotive entry into the massive pent-up demand of the post WWII market.   G-P was short of the financing to make that happen, Kaiser had the fortune and the gravitas with financial interest to secure the needed funding.   They tapped Reconstruction Finance Corporation to provide a share along with their individual underwriting.   To their credit, Kaiser and Frazer were the only men to successfully develop a fully-functioning automobile manufacturing and sales operation after the war compared to the many upstarts that were all woefully underfinanced to achieve that objective.

 

The split between Kaiser and Frazer took place over planning for the 1949 model year.  Kaiser decided they would seek financing to gear-up to produce 200K cars based on the assumed continued unsatisfied demand.  Frazer, far more savvy in the vagaries of the car business, knew that the Big Three would be introducing all-new 1949 cars while K-F had only a mildly-restyled 1947 car with no new features or technology to entice buyers.  With this knowledge, he wanted to proceed cautiously, plan to produce only approximately third as many cars which he forecast as realistic potential sales.   This was the point at which Kaiser and Frazer became at loggerheads, and the infamous utterance by Henry Kaiser "The Kaisers never retrench!"  Frazer stepped down from K-F  Corp. presidency to a consultancy, to be replaced by Edgar Kaiser, HJK's son.
As Frazer feared, with Willow Run operating at capacity, the storage lots quickly filled with unsold cars as dealer sales fell.   The 1949 and shortened 1950 model years returned about 70K sales while at least 10K unused bodies were recycled into 1951 Frazers.   By late 1949-early 1950, dealers were screaming for an all-new car which arrived in March 1950 amid myriad leftover 1949-'50 cars being heavily discounted to move.    Dealers had tapered and/or fully held off taking any more 1949-'50 models in anticipation of the new 1951 Kaiser and Henry J.   The glut of leftovers eventually subsided, the 1951 models sold well but K-F finally faced the reality of a highly competitive industry where it would take much more than annual restyles to keep buyers interested.   While V8 engines were prototyped and tested, the financing necessary for production was diverted to bring the Henry J to market.  

The export market was one of the stronger aspects of K-F's business and a natural refuge when the fierce US competition overwhelmed them.   The Willys-Overland purchase provided them a solid, ongoing source of vehicles in demand not only here but in all parts of the world where utility was a higher priority.  The Jeep was famous worldwide for its yeoman WWII service; the station wagons and trucks further advancing that reputation.   The South American car market had been largely serviced by imports, setting up local manufacturing of former American cars which were highly regarded there was practical recycling of tooling no longer useful here while developing an underservice market.  

Steve
 

 

 

[nick8086]

Famed coachbuilder Ray Dietrich turned some Kaiser coupes into convertible proposals, including this one. It was among the prettiest 1952-1955 Kaiser concept cars.

 

I added a pic to my old post..

 

 

[alsancle]

Although a few years early I always lump these in with the 53 Halo cars.   Always thought they were pretty cool.

[B Jake Moran]

The 53 Halo cars have always fascinated me. It seems like most manufacturers had them, whether non road able concept cars like the Sun Goddess, limited production cars like the Hudson, or production cars like the Eldorado and others.