'65 Riviera Wooden Wheel Horn Actuator Bar Not Working

[Steve U]

First, I hope that everyone is staying healthy out there.  I'm spending my time trying to clear up some glitches with my 1965 Riviera. It's the standard two-note horn and they both work. When I disassemble the wooden steering wheel and actuator bar, the horns will sound when the pressure is relieved on the spring and insulator.  When I reassemble everything and snug up the screws, there is little movement in the actuator bar and the horns do not work.  

 

All the parts are accounted for and assembled in the correct order in position.  I can't get it to work when the screws are tight, loose or anything in between. Anyone have any tips?

 

Thanks!  

[1965rivgs]

Hi Steve,

  You are probably pinching the contact plate under one of the "feet" of the insulator, hard to explain...try wiggling the plastic piece which the screws go through side to side as you tighten them.

Tom Mooney

[Seafoam65]

                 I noticed you said that when you tighten the screws there is little movement of the horn bar. I assume you have a repro steel horn

bar, not an original factory pot metal bar. I had the same problem you are having with the repro bar I purchased for my wood wheel. Your problem

is that the base circle part of the bar with the three holes in it is much too thick, throwing off the geometry of everything. What I did to solve my problem

was take a file and file the bottom of the horn bar base until it was the right thickness. In the case of my horn bar, it was WAY too thick, so it took me a couple

of hours of hard work to file it down enough for the horn to honk. Another thing that will help and avoid excess filing is if you leave the three screws a little

loose and don't tighten them down all the way. This will give the horn bar more room to move, and the screws will stay in there loose for years without

falling out or causing a problem.

[telriv]

Or you could put some Red Loc-Tite on the very edge of the screw threads.

[Steve U]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  While I don't think the wheel is original to the car, it is an original piece.  The actuator bar is non-magnetic, which might indicate it is pot metal. I made a video of me working on the wheel, available here: https://vimeo.com/417023375/7cfe6ce15b

 

The actuator pin works, but does not extend into the space very far. How far is it supposed to extend and how do you get it out?  

 

Thanks again for all your help.

[1965rivgs]

59 minutes ago, Steve U said:

Thanks for all the suggestions.  While I don't think the wheel is original to the car, it is an original piece.  The actuator bar is non-magnetic, which might indicate it is pot metal. I made a video of me working on the wheel, available here: https://vimeo.com/417023375/7cfe6ce15b

 

The actuator pin works, but does not extend into the space very far. How far is it supposed to extend and how do you get it out?  

 

Thanks again for all your help.

Steve,

  Are you sure you have all the parts?

Tom Mooney

[Seafoam65]

 The way it is acting it looks like you are missing the spring plate that is supposed to be between the steering wheel and the flat plate with

the plastic edging on it. Show us a video of you taking it all apart so we can see what is there and what the parts look like.

[Steve U]

Here are some photos of the wheel. According to the shop manual diagram, all the parts are there.  The connector pin seems to be stuck in the steering wheel column. Or is that the Spring and the connector has somehow been lost?

 

When the horn bar is assembled, the "wings" are not flush with the slots in the wheel, which you can see in the "Wheel from above" photo, another indication that something is off, I think.

 

And I have to ask, what does "N.L." mean in the diagram?

 

Thanks again!

 

Steve

[1965rivgs]

Steve,

  Make sure the round barrels of the spacer are centered in the holes in the "spring" while tightening the screws. If the edge of the round barrels of the spacer grab the edge of the spring, the screws will pull down the spring and the hornbar making the hornbar feel solid with no movement. When installed properly the horn bar is suspended or supported into position by the concave spring. The spring must be free to move up and down when the hornbar is depressed and to do so the spring must be independent of and free to move around the spacer.   

  Usually when this happens (when the spacer pinches the spring) it will sound the horn because the spring is being collapsed as the screws are tightened but maybe there is also an issue with the spring/plunger contact.

  It appears as I described as the hornbar is in a "depressed, left and right side simultaneously" position in the pic from above.

  N.L. in the diagram means "not listed" or "no listing" as this diagram is not from the service manual but is from the `65 parts book.

Tom Mooney

Edited May 14, 2020 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

Looking at your pictures, it appears to me that the big round silver metal contact plate with the three holes in it

is all flattened out and not standing up in the center like it is supposed to be....that is your problem. When you put the plate 

flat on your workbench, the center should be much higher than the outer edges.....that enables the plate to act as both a spring

and a horn contact. It appears to me that your plate is flat as a pancake.

[1965rivgs]

31 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

Looking at your pictures, it appears to me that the big round silver metal contact plate with the three holes in it

is all flattened out and not standing up in the center like it is supposed to be....that is your problem. When you put the plate 

flat on your workbench, the center should be much higher than the outer edges.....that enables the plate to act as both a spring

and a horn contact. It appears to me that your plate is flat as a pancake.

Winston,

  Yes, the spring should be slightly concave, but I think if the plate was flat the horn bar would be loose because the spacer only allows the screws to be drawn down as far as the height of the barrels of the spacer...unless the barrels of the spacer are shorter than stock?

Tom

[Seafoam65]

13 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Winston,

  Yes, the spring should be slightly concave, but I think if the plate was flat the horn bar would be loose because the spacer only allows the screws to be drawn down as far as the height of the barrels of the spacer...unless the barrels of the spacer are shorter than stock?

Tom

Tom, when  I was putting together my wood wheel, I bought a reproduction horn contact kit because I needed the plastic screw insulator

as mine was broken. I attempted to use the contact spring plate that came in the kit and the horn would not honk and acted like the description

of the problems Steve U is having. I compared the contact spring plate to the original GM one I had and it didn't stand up in the middle half as high

as the GM one and when you pushed on it in the center it wouldn't pop back up. I put it together with the original GM plate  and all was fine.......perhaps Steve U

has one of these crappy repro contact plates on his steering wheel?

Edited May 14, 2020 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

42 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

Tom, when  I was putting together my wood wheel, I bought a reproduction horn contact kit because I needed the plastic screw insulator

as mine was broken. I attempted to use the contact spring plate that came in the kit and the horn would not honk and acted like the description

of the problems Steve U is having. I compared the contact spring plate to the original GM one I had and it didn't stand up in the middle half as high

as the GM one and when you pushed on it in the center it wouldn't pop back up. I put it together with the original GM plate  and all was fine.......perhaps Steve U

has one of these crappy repro contact plates on his steering wheel?

Dunno...havnt had any experience with the repro items...but GM used a similar spring steel contact plate in MANY applications including trucks, so maybe there are several similarly appearing springs with different specs?...hard to diagnose over the internet, especially if some of the parts are not original... but first step to diagnose is understanding the original principle of operation. I`ve found the most common mistake is not understanding that the spring/contact plate needs to be free to move and not pinched down by the spacer barrels/feet.

Tom

[Steve U]

I don’t think this is a repro, at least a full repro from the discoloring and wear marks. Sure enough the spring is flat. I think it was screwed down tight for many years and that flattened it. Any idea how concave the spring should be? Can this spring be salvaged?

 

When the spring is in its holder, I can make it “spring” and make a click, but the movement is only 1/16th if an inch or so. 
 

When all the parts are assembled, you can see that there is no give. 

 

[1965rivgs]

  Reviewing the pics the plunger/contact is not original or complete. There is a "cap" which goes over the plastic housing of the plunger which indexes the plunger in the machined recess in the hub. However, I would expect the hornbar to assemble into place correctly even with this deficiency.

  To check my memory I grabbed a wood wheel and removed the spring/contact plate to simulate a flat plate and when doing so the hornbar flops around and is very loose. This makes sense as the concave nature of the spring puts tension on the harnbar and holds it firmly in place, unless the hornbar is pushed which compresses and flattens the spring, forcing it to contact the center boss of the hub and providing a ground for the relay.

  It is very obvious in your pic from above the steering wheel that the hornbar is being drawn down toward the hub and not suspended by the concave nature of the spring/contact plate.

Tom

[1965rivgs]

9 minutes ago, Steve U said:

I don’t think this is a repro, at least a full repro from the discoloring and wear marks. Sure enough the spring is flat. I think it was screwed down tight for many years and that flattened it. Any idea how concave the spring should be? Can this spring be salvaged?

 

When the spring is in its holder, I can make it “spring” and make a click, but the movement is only 1/16th if an inch or so. 
 

When all the parts are assembled, you can see that there is no give. 

 

Yes, the spring should be more concave...but if all the parts are assembled correctly, and someone hasnt shortened the barrels on the spacer, maybe in an attempt to make things work, the hornbar will be loose and flopping around, not tight. If the spring is too flat there should be more give, not less...if you are not piching the spring something else is going on,

Tom

Tom

Edited May 14, 2020 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

  Some pics of original components from a functioning hornbar...reviewing the concave degree of the spring it is not as pronounced as my memory indicates, probably between an eight and sixteenth, see pics..

Tom

[1965rivgs]

BTW...for Steve or anyone else fooling with the fragile hornbar...this is how I check for proper operation of the hornbar. Just push down with both thumbs and one should feel a distinct "snap" when the spring/contact plate deflects.

Tom

[Seafoam65]

Tom, the spring in your picture is flatter than the one on my car......the one on Steve's car is flat as a pancake which is why

his horn doesn't work.By the way, I think it may be possible to bend the part to make it useable again  if the metal still has it's tensile strength.....it's worth a try.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[RivNut]

I kept the innards from an 80s era Jeep Cherokee wheel horn because I thought they looked the same.  I don't know where they went so I have nothing to compare.  But almost any wheel with a horn button should be something similar.

[1965rivgs]

17 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

Tom, the spring in your picture is flatter than the one on my car......the one on Steve's car is flat as a pancake which is why

his horn doesn't work.By the way, I think it may be possible to bend the part to make it useable again  if the metal still has it's tensile strength.....it's worth a try.

Agreed, there should be some "give" to the spring.

Tom

[RockinRiviDad]

Was this horn issue ever resolved?

[kreed]

Putting my wooden steering wheel/horn on today and found that the thin connector like filaments that connect each spacer are broken from just being old and fragile . Is it critical that the spacer be continuous with one another to function ? Thanks 

KReed

14549

[1965rivgs]

19 minutes ago, kreed said:

Putting my wooden steering wheel/horn on today and found that the thin connector like filaments that connect each spacer are broken from just being old and fragile . Is it critical that the spacer be continuous with one another to function ? Thanks 

KReed

14549

  No, just an "assembly aid". Just be sure the bottom edge of the spacers do not catch and depress the flat steel spring as you are tightening the screws.

Tom

[Seafoam65]

 The new repro spacers shatter like an eggshell when you try to tighten the screws........they are worse

than your old one, but the spacer bars aren't needed thank goodness. Here's another tip.....if you are using a repro

horn bar a lot of the time they are made a little too  thick at the round base, and when you tighten down the screws

the horn bar won't have any up down movement and the horn will honk all the time. If this happens, you can just

loosen the screws until it works properly.....the screws will stay in the same place for years even though they are not tightened down....I had to do this on my steering wheel.

[kreed]

Thanks Tom and Winston - appreciate the advice . 
Ken 

[RivNut]

I found a Jeep steering wheel that was pre air bags and it had a good quality spacer ring in it.  A lot of center blow horns had such spacers.

[coast]

I was having the exact issue with my horn bar.  I finally figured out my problem. After years of glue, jb weld and expoy putty trying to hold together my failing horn bar I had glued down the final or outside plastic ring to the horn bar. Therefore it had not movement. I removed years of goo and put it back together and it works as it should.  Only issue now is I have no horn bar to apply the horn. I guess I will be in the market for a new aftermarket horn bar.

 

All of the info here was very helpful in me finally dialing in my issue.

 

Thanks
Bob

[RIVNIK]

I'm no metallurgist, but as a last resort you might try heating that spring plate up & tossing it in some cold water. any thoughts from you guys smarter than me?                                         (don't everyone chime in all at once)

[abandg]

I have a few repro horn bars left. Gene.

[Riv Eng]

Hi all, my horn bar is not looking good. I have all the parts, but it looks like one of the bars is broken and mended by rivets to a coil of sheet metal wound inside the cup and a hose clamp on the outside of the cup. 

 

Are these bars repairable, or is the pot metal to thin to repair? 

 

Maybe I'm better off getting a new bar from Gene?

[EmTee]

Looks OK to me...

[RivNut]

If it looks good stick with it.  The bars break when you push down on them. Learn to use your horn br going on the back side of the wheel and pushing up on the bar.

[joe c]

I just acquired a 1965 Riv factory wood steering wheel complete with horn bar etc… with a slight bend of the metal spring and correct reassembly, thanks to the parts drawing, the horn bar snaps just like Tom explained above. Good advice.

Thanks, Joe

[65VerdeGS]

On 9/16/2022 at 9:27 PM, Riv Eng said:

 

Are these bars repairable, or is the pot metal to thin to repair? 

 

Yes, the horn bar can be repaired. The repros are pricey, but worth it.  Read on and decide for yourself.

 

One of side of my wood wheel horn bar broke off many years back.  A friend who knew about pot metal welding was able to weld it back together.  Although the repair was hidden by the center cap, the repaired side wasn't quite aligned properly with the opening in the steering wheel.  Most wouldn't notice this, but I did!  Back then there were no repro horn bars, and the welding repair cost me something like 20 bucks.

 

My welder friend told me there's a specific technique to welding pot metal.  So if you go this route, make sure your welder knows what he's doing.

 

After my horn bar was welded back together, I did as Ed advised - pull up on the horn bar from behind to blow the horn.  This maneuver isn't exactly intuitive, but soon enough you'll get used to doing it. 

 

When the reproduction horn bars became available I bought one. They are made from a solid piece of metal (chromed brass I think), so are way stronger than the stock pot metal horn bars.  A gorilla could probably bang on the horn bar for an hour and never break it.

 

After installing the new horn bar I was glad to be able to use it as it was designed - by pushing down on it from the front. 

 

I traded my repaired horn bar for a full set of Soft-Ray tinted glass for my Riv, including backlight from a buddy who needed the horn bar to complete his wood wheel. 

 

Both of us were happy.

 

 

 

When because it broke at the hub, where most of them break.  broke at