Period images to relieve some of the stress

[edinmass]

6 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Different cars. Look at the front fenders.

The purple car did win BoS at Pebble.

[edinmass]

6 minutes ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

 

It is always extra interesting to see really nice original era photographs of special cars when they were new, and then to see a nice photo of the car in recent years. Especially when they have been restored to such a high standard, and being rewarded for what they are.

I do question the color however. While I very much like the color it is now, and would consider it to be an appropriate color for a car of that era, the original photograph shows what appears to be a much lighter color. Then again, many high end automobiles in that era were repainted in new colors very early in their lives. So one may wonder just what the original color was, or what other colors it may have been while still nearly new.

I have always liked Isotta Fraschini automobiles, even though most of them appear to be newer than my primary eras of interest. Not sure why. Although there are quite a few European classics I like.

Thank you all for the postings.

 

The Cadillac Murphy is a fantastic car, and currently owned by a friend. It’s one of the top three Cadillacs in the world......In my humble opinion. 

 

[ericmac]

On 6/18/2020 at 8:21 AM, 58L-Y8 said:

I didn't know there were any flattering views of that unfortunate Duesenberg...  I recall a straight on front view which reveals how the body widens from the cowl like buses in the era did.  The tall overall height, cut-off sausage rear body, heavily rounded window openings and 'humpback whale' side-mount covers all told make this the hands-down worst body any Duesenberg was saddled with.  Wouldn't you know it, many of the gorgeous one-off custom bodies have been lost, but this atrocity survives.

To be clear here, the car is certainly the most homely of any Duesenberg extant. I was saying that particular angle makes the car look slightly less horrendous than other angles. Dare I say it? If I owned the car I would put some serious thought into cutting down the chassis and rebodying...and especially, refendering it. I would keep all the original parts in case someone lost their mind and wanted to go back, but this is one case where such an update would be doing the car a favor.

[ericmac]

2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

 

 

 

 

 

And then we have this stunner at the opposite end of the spectrum. 

[twin6]

Some fine old Pierces...

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, ericmac said:

To be clear here, the car is certainly the most homely of any Duesenberg extant. I was saying that particular angle makes the car look slightly less horrendous than other angles. Dare I say it? If I owned the car I would put some serious thought into cutting down the chassis and rebodying...and especially, refendering it. I would keep all the original parts in case someone lost their mind and wanted to go back, but this is one case where such an update would be doing the car a favor.

 

Remember.......an ugly Duesenberg is still a Duesenberg.

 

I’m a Pierce guy, through and through. There are cars, and there are Model J Duesenbergs.........just a simple fact. There is a reason for the hype.........I’ll probably never own one, but it’s simple.....they are that good.

Edited June 20, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

4 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

IF

Who was the coachbuilder?

[ericmac]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Remember.......an ugly Duesenberg is still a Duesenberg.

 

I’m a Pierce guy, through and through. There are cars, and there are Model J Duesenbergs.........just a simple fact. There is a reason for the hype.........I’ll probably never own one, but it’s simple.....they are that good.

I hear you on all counts.  I've only driven 5 or 6 Duesenbergs over the years but every one of them have been magnificent to say the least.  I too doubt that I will ever own one but you have to have something to shoot for, right?

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, keiser31 said:

Different cars. Look at the front fenders.

 

There are more differences than that but are of the same car I believe.   Among the list the wheels are different and they moved the wipers from the top of the windscreen to the bottom.

Edited June 20, 2020 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

 

 

A future Pebble Beach Best of Show Winner.

 

 

•  

It is always extra interesting to see really nice original era photographs of special cars when they were new, and then to see a nice photo of the car in recent years. Especially when they have been restored to such a high standard, and being rewarded for what they are.

I do question the color however. While I very much like the color it is now, and would consider it to be an appropriate color for a car of that era, the original photograph shows what appears to be a much lighter color. Then again, many high end automobiles in that era were repainted in new colors very early in their lives. So one may wonder just what the original color was, or what other colors it may have been while still nearly new.

I have always liked Isotta Fraschini automobiles, even though most of them appear to be newer than my primary eras of interest. Not sure why. Although there are quite a few European classics I like.

Thank you all for the postings.

 

It is a fantastic car,  but I personally think that BOS at Pebble should require an exact representation of the original.

[Pilgrim65]

20 hours ago, Colin Spong said:

1932 Ford Model Y pre-production prototype. Designed for the British and European markets in Dearborn by Eugene "Bob" Gregorie.

Edsel Ford liked it so much that the design was scaled up and became the 1933/34 Ford V8 

Was my family’s first car a 1932 , the same but not ours till 1953, remember long journeys to London to visit my fathers family and a camping holiday with it in Cornwall in a bell tent .  ( south west England) great little car , fond memories 

[Captain Harley]

When the first picture of the Murphy bodied 1930 V-16 Cadillac appeared on page 223.  I had to catch my breath!  Wow!  What a car.  The color picture of the car on page 225 does not do the car justice, to me.  There is no way you could improve the original black and white pic.😊

 

Capt. Harley😉

[Casper Friederich]

On 6/19/2020 at 2:25 PM, nzcarnerd said:

From a facebook page. No caption provided.

 

Cadillac?

 

 

Yes, Cadillac indeed. Motor car of then privately owned Bergslagernas järnvägar, recently electrified.

[John_Mereness]

15 hours ago, keiser31 said:

Different cars. Look at the front fenders.

I am leaning toward it being "un - modernized in restoration - these cars were huge investments for even the very wealth and often were modernized to allow them a couple more years of usage when near new (generally considered a Duesenberg and a Rolls-Royce "thing", but really applies to all the pushing stuff that cost 12K to 22K when new).  Also, being a 1931, it is a little early for skirted fenders (even in Europe) and a little early for a built on trunk too.  The below photo looks very 1931 configuration to me.

 

 

1995 Pebble Beach Best of Show -

1931

Isotta Fraschini

Tipo 8B Dansk Viggo Jensen Cabriolet de Ville

Edited June 20, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Well, it did not take too long to find a photo of the car with even more skirted fenders

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

[John_Mereness]

4 hours ago, Captain Harley said:

When the first picture of the Murphy bodied 1930 V-16 Cadillac appeared on page 223.  I had to catch my breath!  Wow!  What a car.  The color picture of the car on page 225 does not do the car justice, to me.  There is no way you could improve the original black and white pic.😊

 

Capt. Harley😉

It would be interesting to see a photo of it as a brand new car.  

 

I had thought the car made a brief appearance at the end of runaway bride with Clark Gable and Claudette Colbert - but it appears not.

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

[John_Mereness]

This Cadillac V-16 is in "It Happened One Night" with Clark Gable and Claudette Colbert

 

 

 

[Casper Friederich]

1924 Voisin 18cv

[Casper Friederich]

Buick ad by Osterman's. In the background Storkyrkan, the Royal wedding church in Stockholm

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Well, it did not take too long to find a photo of the car with even more skirted fenders

 

What has happened is you have stumbled into what I will modestly name "A.J.'s Cannon"  (aka rule).    The rule is as follows:

 

"All Cool Unique cars were constantly photographed in period and later.  And if they weren't,  they didn't exist".

 

What this means is that when you find a really cool great car,  yet have trouble finding a period photograph,  said car materialized after said period.

 

Everyone please attribute me going forward.

Thank you.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

 

 

Peerless Master Eight?

[58L-Y8]

Here's a better look at that 1924 Voisin 18cv:

Edited June 20, 2020 by 58L-Y8 (see edit history)

[Casper Friederich]

47 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Here's a better look at that 1924 Voisin 18cv:

Thanks! I thought that I had deleted this photo.

[Walt G]

The 1924 Voisin sedan with all the trunks bolted in place is really cool. Most cars saw this kind of accessory case(cases) offered up into the very late 1920s, and the company who made the cars would also issue accessory catalogs showing cases like this in place on the cars that could be ordered through the dealer. Packard accessory catalogs in the early/mid 1920s showed these. There was no room inside the cars then , be they touring cars or sedans to keep anything. Trunk racks at the rear were not all that common to accommodate taking stuff along with you. If you look at some of the brass era car photos here you will see spare tires mounted on the running boards at the side of the car and the center of the spare wheel has been filled in with some kind of case - that is a hat box! people wore hats then more then they do now  ( today it is baseball type caps that are worn and are popular , back then- pre WWII for men it was bowler hats ( think Laurel & Hardy) or homberg ( large felt hats ) or straw hats.

These photographs are lessons in style of the era as well as just style of the cars .  History lesson # 34 is now over.

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, Walt G said:

The 1924 Voisin sedan with all the trunks bolted in place is really cool. Most cars saw this kind of accessory case(cases) offered up into the very late 1920s, and the company who made the cars would also issue accessory catalogs showing cases like this in place on the cars that could be ordered through the dealer. Packard accessory catalogs in the early/mid 1920s showed these. There was no room inside the cars then , be they touring cars or sedans to keep anything. Trunk racks at the rear were not all that common to accommodate taking stuff along with you. If you look at some of the brass era car photos here you will see spare tires mounted on the running boards at the side of the car and the center of the spare wheel has been filled in with some kind of case - that is a hat box! people wore hats then more then they do now  ( today it is baseball type caps that are worn and are popular , back then- pre WWII for men it was bowler hats ( think Laurel & Hardy) or homberg ( large felt hats ) or straw hats.

These photographs are lessons in style of the era as well as just style of the cars .  History lesson # 34 is now over.

I have seen a lot of runningboard trunks and fender mount trunks at swap meets and on dusty shelves of garages (mostly for Packard's) and a shame people rarely restore them for their/a car - I understand as every trunk I have restored has been 10X the project a reasonable person would ever consider, but ....

 

And, funny you mention HUGE cars with no space inside (the RR PI was a reminder - but it had two decent sized glove boxes, a toolbox under the front seats, and a luggage trunk, though the trunk was out being helped in restoration for most of the time I owned the car).  When dad sees a trunk now and someone mentions restoration he is quick to tell them to have a nice cover made and beat themselves senseless on another project. 

[Walt G]

John I understand what you are saying. To see a period trunk restored and fitted to a car without the tan or black canvas cover over it that you usually find in place ( for the past 50+ years) is a real treasure to see. the metal corner caps, plated hinges and latches, leather strap handles at the sides etc. it just so makes  the finished car look just right. I totally agree that restoring a trunk is many more hours in the process.
"10x the project a reasonable person would ever consider" well stated my friend!

[ericmac]

13 hours ago, Captain Harley said:

When the first picture of the Murphy bodied 1930 V-16 Cadillac appeared on page 223.  I had to catch my breath!  Wow!  What a car.  The color picture of the car on page 225 does not do the car justice, to me.  There is no way you could improve the original black and white pic.😊

 

Capt. Harley😉

That car is my favorite V-16 out there. I worked on that car when the restoration was pretty fresh, about 25 years ago. I had never seen the black and white photo and agree that the car was fabulous in the light color with the painted wheels and blackwall tires. It just looks right that way. Probably because it is right that way.

[alsancle]

On 6/19/2020 at 8:04 PM, alsancle said:

 

This is a picture from an AACA event in the mid 60s when the car was owned by Max Hamilton.   I have some pictures around the same period when it was at Hershey.

 

 

I had a shot from the same time period with Max standing next to it.

 

[alsancle]

19 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

 

 

I thought the Master Eight was a shorter wheelbase,  slightly lower standard equipment than the Custom,  same engine.   Can somebody more knowledgeable than I (Jeff?) elaborate.  Note spare tire covers,  different bumper and other differences.

 

Btw,  these cars are made of Unobtainium.   In the last 20 years,  I've seen one Master Eight and two Custom Eights for sale.

 

EDIT:  It is the wheelbase - I attached additional article.

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

The late series Peerless cars, like many others are exceptionally rare. The biggest issue with them is quality VS reputation. From 1915 to the end of production, Peerless quality fell into the basement. The “big three P’s” were really the “big 2” By 1916.....a few T head cars were built after the V-8’s came out. Having worked on and driven most of the surviving series and platforms from 1912 to the end, I don’t consider any of them for my “want to buy” list. The V-8 cars are just lacking in quality and performance.........and the 1920’s sixes are nothing to write home about. A few of the late series straight eight cars are interesting, and are mid grade quality and performance. I do find the last few cars interesting.........but they are basically extinct...........and as it is with many other cars today, there is no club support or any technical experts left to call and look for help with problems if your not skilled. Not trying to dump on the brand.......but they were basically doomed from post WWI. The swan song V-16 mechanically was great.......better than a Cadillac as far as the power plant is concerned.......but the body design was lacking in style and quality. That said, I would like to own the V-16 Peerless some day, but the issue of heads and blocks failing would make me more than cautious on which cars I would consider. Ultimately dollars spent today have many more outlets for more interesting and drivable cars that place them above the cut of 95 percent of the survivors, so the likelihood of me ending up with one is small.

Edited June 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

9 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The late series Peerless cars, like many others are exceptionally rare. The biggest issue with them is quality VS reputation. From 1915 to the end of production, Peerless quality fell into the basement. The “big three P’s” were really the “big 2” By 1916.....a few T head cars were built after the V-8’s came out. Having worked on and driven most of the surviving series and platforms from 1912 to the end, I don’t consider any of them for my “want to buy” list. The V-8 cars are just lacking in quality and performance.........and the 1920’s sixes are nothing to write home about. A few of the late series straight eight cars are interesting, and are mid grade quality and performance. I do find the last few cars interesting.........but they are basically extinct...........and as it is with many other cars today, there is no club support or any technical experts left to call and look for help with problems if your not skilled. Not trying to dump on the brand.......but they were basically doomed from post WWI. The swan song V-16 mechanically was great.......better than a Cadillac as far as the power plant is concerned.......but the body design was lacking in style and quality. That said, I would like to own a V-16 Peerless some day, but the issue of heads and blocks failing would make me more than cautious on which cars I would consider. Ultimately dollars spent today have many more outlets for more interesting and drivable cars that place them above the cut of 95 percent of the survivors, so the likelihood of me ending up with one is small.

 

Ed,  this sentence:  "That said, I would like to own a V-16 Peerless some day"    should be "That said, I would like to own THE  V-16 Peerless some day".

 

Otherwise,  I agree with your comments.   The Custom Eight of 30/31 was a 3k car which puts it in the class with the Reo Royale.   Basically the bottom of the Luxury tier.

[edinmass]

8 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Ed,  this sentence:  "That said, I would like to own a V-16 Peerless some day"    should be "That said, I would like to own THE  V-16 Peerless some day".

 

Otherwise,  I agree with your comments.   The Custom Eight of 30/31 was a 3k car which puts it in the class with the Reo Royale.   Basically the bottom of the Luxury tier.

Fixed.........sorry about that. Too many times I’m typing while sleepy or distracted. I also have the bad habit of not reading what I typed before I hit save. While the last batch of cars were priced in the same category as the Reo Royal, they weren’t up to the Reo’s construction, fit, or finish.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

A 32 Peerless Custom 8 in a Club sedan with wire wheels and sidemounts - NOW WE ARE TALKING !!!

 

Thank you Al "alsancle" for the original post 

 

This is a Custom bodied one with a Weyman fabric body.  At least one of these was sold to the President of a milk company in Cleveland.  

 

 

As to the production body - unfortunately I do not know if a "period" photo exists, though this new one exists albeit a car in "base" wooden wheel form (when I asked for photo of it when it was for sale everyone who lnows me was less than supportive as they knew I would want wire wheels for it and equally knew the quest for them would not be pleasurable matched to an "unobtaium" parts supply and ... - then spend a fortune restoring to have unknown though probably lower than restoration cost value).

 

 

 

[alsancle]

8 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

 

 

Photo from Tom Laferriere's driveway.  

Walt,  is this restoration finished yet?  I think this is one of those deals where the car looked a lot better than it was underneath.

 

[John_Mereness]

He are a few photos of the Peerless V-16

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Illinois Coal Miner Union War 1932-1937:  Shooting victim Edris Mabe (inset) and scene at Sixth and Washington streets following fatal confrontation on Easter Sunday 1935 (State Journal-Register)

[John_Mereness]

1938: Alexander's Market at 3029 S. Vermont Ave. This view includes GallenKamp's Shoes (3035 S. Vermont Ave.) and Mode O' Day (3033 S. Vermont Ave.. (Herman J. Schultheis/Los Angeles Photographers Collection/Los Angeles Public Library Collection)