NEW CLASSES FOR 1990-1995 CARS

[Dynaflash8]

I saw in the AACA Judges Newsletter that classes had been combined for 1990-1995 cars.  For example, my Senior 1991 Buick Park Avenue which has won in Class 27S has been combined with Pontiacs and Buicks 1990-1995 in Class 36L.  I've already registered it in Class 27S at Miami.   That isn't a big deal, except it would have been better joined at the hip with an Olds 98 that any Pontiac -- my opinion of course.  I guess my main question is why?  Do I assume this was to save trophy money?  I realize these cars last longer and will run 200K-Plus if you treat them right.  A 1939 or 1941 model was lucky to run 100K without overhaul or rebuild, so I guess more people my parents' age threw them away sooner. 

 

It's not bad for me, since my car is already a Senior, but it will certainly make competition harder for other people coming along.  I have a '39 and a '41, but for the long, long distances to shows and tours from south central Florida I need a trailer.  It's not that the cars might not run to far off distances, and the '41 probably will maintain Inter-State speeds okay, but if either one of them breaks down far from home there would be no parts and, actually, no knowledgeable mechanics, to work on them.  On one tour I couldn't even find a mechanic who knew how to install points & condenser in the '71 Buick I was driving!  When I became 80, I decided I had to cut back on trailering, and probably quit it altogether after the 2020 Sentimental Tour in West Virginia.  So, what to do if I don't want to just curl up and die in Florida (I should never have moved here, except for the tax deal).  So, the best cars I ever owned were several 1991-2005 Buick Park Avenues and LeSabre Limites.  When I realized some of them were 25 years old, I found a 1991 Buick Park Avenue with only 3,061 documented miles on it.  I can drive it to shows and tours anywhere I want to go, because the car was built more or less the same mechanically through 2005.  Young mechanics know how to work on it, and parts houses still have parts.  I think at 81 years old, that is no cop-out.  I can still do what I've done for 58 years in AACA and be with old friends and enjoy (a much as possible) the same things I've always done in AACA since 1962.

 

With so many of us getting so much older, and young people more interested in APPS than AUTOS and club costs increasing every day, I guess the leaders had to start coming up with some new plans.  Might I suggest combining some of the classes for the really old cars.  We only see 0-3 most times in any of those early classes.  Just a thought.

[bryankazmer]

Buick, Olds, and Pontiac in these years (1990's) are extremely similar variations on the same platform.  That's a big reason there is only one of them left.  It would make sense to put all 3 in the same class.

 

In combining prewar classes to fill out classes, I think there are more "vertical" issues than "horizontal" ones.  A Buick Special in with a Limited is more of a mis-match to me  than a Buick Special in with an Olds 8 cylinder

[Dynaflash8]

6 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

Buick, Olds, and Pontiac in these years (1990's) are extremely similar variations on the same platform.  That's a big reason there is only one of them left.  It would make sense to put all 3 in the same class.

 

In combining prewar classes to fill out classes, I think there are more "vertical" issues than "horizontal" ones.  A Buick Special in with a Limited is more of a mis-match to me  than a Buick Special in with an Olds 8 cylinder

A Buick Limited through 1942 and a Buick Roadmaster through 1941 are NOT in the same Class with a Special, Century or Super.  The Buick Roadmaster and Limited in those years (Series 70-80-90) are all in Class 19 (Recognized Classic Cars) and the others are in Class 20 (Production cars).  This separation agrees with the Classic Car Club of America (CCCA) as well, except they do not accept "Production cars".  As for the earliest of the 1990-1995 GM cars, it is a matter of opinion (perhaps I'm certain, mine) that the Olds 98 was much closer to the overall quality of the Park Avenue than a Pontiac Bonneville.  But, I don't consider it a big deal either way .  Not all Olds' were 98's for sure.

[bryankazmer]

poor example on my part for the prewar - I'm fairly  familiar with CCCA classes (and we know that's a whole different discussion).  My point is the broader a marque's range, the more the top of the line differs from the bottom (especially true at some independents).  Putting cars of a similar price point together doesn't trouble me (although it makes the judges' jobs even harder).

 

on your newer one, the 88-LeSabre-Bonneville would be the clone cars.  98-Park Avenue another pair.  There are a lot of engineering horror stories about GM in this era.  The coolant-passage intake with incompatible o-rings is just one.

[1937hd45]

Since they are so easy to drive I would hope they get parked at the back of the show field, and allow easy access for the slow outdated pre WWII vehicles. Bob 

[Dynaflash8]

2 minutes ago, bryankazmer said:

poor example on my part for the prewar - I'm fairly  familiar with CCCA classes (and we know that's a whole different discussion).  My point is the broader a marque's range, the more the top of the line differs from the bottom (especially true at some independents).  Putting cars of a similar price point together doesn't trouble me (although it makes the judges' jobs even harder).

 

on your newer one, the 88-LeSabre-Bonneville would be the clone cars.  98-Park Avenue another pair.  There are a lot of engineering horror stories about GM in this era.  The coolant-passage intake with incompatible o-rings is just one.

True on the coolent passage intake problem.  The 91 didn't have that problem.  My daughter works in a Buick parts department and she told me which year they changed that and I don't remember, but it was after 1991 and I did have the problem with one I owned, a 2001 Park Avenue I bought new.  Once fixed, it stayed fixed, and my daughter is still driving it in Baltimore, well in excell of 200K miles.  The second 2001 I owned showed repair there done before I bought it.

 

[Dynaflash8]

Just now, 1937hd45 said:

Since they are so easy to drive I would hope they get parked at the back of the show field, and allow easy access for the slow outdated pre WWII vehicles. Bob 

Don't worry, I'm sure they will be.  How much younger are you than me?  I remember you as being a very young man twenty years ago....I guessed about 25 then?

[1937hd45]

Just now, Dynaflash8 said:

Don't worry, I'm sure they will be.  How much younger are you than me?  I remember you as being a very young man twenty years ago....I guessed about 25 then?

 

Just now, Dynaflash8 said:

 

Just knocked the first month off my 70th year. Never thought the new cars in the showrooms during my lifetime would screw up the term ANTIQUE, sure was a nice hobby. Bob 

[Dynaflash8]

13 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

 

Just knocked the first month off my 70th year. Never thought the new cars in the showrooms during my lifetime would screw up the term ANTIQUE, sure was a nice hobby. Bob 

Well, trust me, you slow down a lot after you turn 75.  I think it's more about the people and the friends you make over the years in this club, so that's why despite open heart surgery 2-way bypass last July, Diabetes 20 years ago, Bladder Cancer in 2014, a pacemaker in December, creeping Machlia Degeneration in my eyes (decided to retire from judging but I can still see good in one eye, and fair in the other) and another nagging problem I'm still doing what we can still do in the club.  I've beat them all so far.  The '91 helps me do that and still participate.  I just restored a '41 Roadmaster, but it's really a 300 mile round trip car with no air or power steering and the '39 works hard for 55-60 mph.  I sold the '39 Special convertible sedan as preparation for getting rid of the trailer after this year.  You get to a point where you can still do it all, but you have to give in to some stuff, or sit around and die.  The '91 does feel funny going on the show field, but it keeps my wife and I in the game now that we've passed 80.  Earl

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I thought about entering my 1994 Chevy next year. Using that comparison of an early Special to a Roadmaster makes me think they would be much more similar than some if the 1990's cars, even without the CCCA designation.

 

Very different from a Park avenue or an Olds 98.

[Dynaflash8]

3 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I thought about entering my 1994 Chevy next year. Using that comparison of an early Special to a Roadmaster makes me think they would be much more similar than some if the 1990's cars, even without the CCCA designation.

 

Very different from a Park avenue or an Olds 98.

There is a lot of difference between the 248 cid engine in the '39 and the 322 cid engine in the '41, especially with the '41 dual carbs and higher compression and 165 hp..  But, that said, the 80-90 Buick prior to '41 were very large and cushy and had 140 hp out of the 322 engine compared to 107 hp in a '39 Special.  The Century did have the big engine, but was designed to be the "hot rod" since the rest of the car was only had an interior a little fancier than the Special.  After the War, Buick ditched the dual carbs and went back to 140 hp.  Only the 356 cid straight 8 1946-47 Packard Custom Super Clipper's are Full Classic Cars in CCCA, and they produce 160 hp.

[Modeleh]

I once knew a guy who ran a 1899 Locomobile, an 11 Stanley, 10 Russell and early Holley, right up until he died at age 89 or so.  Gave many fortunate people rides in those cars and unforgettable memories.  Just because you’re old is no reason to think you can’t enjoy a real antique car.  

[1937hd45]

I'd like a good used 1995 Ford pickup to tow my 1912 Ford and 1911 Hupmoble to Hershey. Leave the trailer in my Swap Meet spot and park all three on the show field. I'd like the see the AACA Judging Committee start a class for vehicles that towed a show car to the meet in another class. Bob 

[JACK M]

Yup, My tow rig is now considered an antique. 1995

I have babied and used this rig since new.

Rarely spends a night outside and is just getting ready to turn 150K.

How badly do you want it Bob?

[padgett]

Yes a class for the tow and the toad.

[1937hd45]

Perfect truck, room for all the grandkids. Bob 

[J.H.Boland]

I had planned on retiring my '92 Park Ave soon.It has over 300,000 kilometers on it, but runs and looks great.It could use new rocker panels, a weak spot on these models, but it would cost more than the car is worth. I guess I'd better keep it going, in a semi-retired state, if it now has a place on the "antique" field !  It's a joy to drive and has lots of miles in it yet.

When I bought my first "old" car in 1961,a 1939 LaSalle, some of the guys in the club ridiculed me for selecting a 22 year old car. To me, at 14 years old,it was perfect. It looked a lot older than a new 1961 model but had hydraulic brakes,a V8 engine,sealed beams,and a synchromesh  transmission. There sure isn't the leap in styling between 1992 and now as there was between 1939 and 1961.

 

[Buffalowed Bill]

I was just sitting here thinking about the phenomenon, which gives some credence to considering twenty five years as a bench mark for antiques. In many parts of the West, rust problems went away forty years ago, so driving a car for a very long time is a real option. In spite of this, at about twenty five years of age the supply of a particular model just dries up. It's at that tipping point, that perception, of almost any model I can think of,  completely changes.  No longer seen a viable transportation by the mass of the driving public, and the car's cash value is at it's lowest point. The owner no longer able to rationalize even the minimal amount of maintenance or repair, to keep it going. It's time to say by, by to old Betsy. The owner might find a kid to buy it for $500-1000, or it might go to the wrecking yard, but just like a broken record it plays over and over again, and within several years they are all but gone. 

 

At this point there is another change that takes place. Now that cars no longer exist on Craigslist, values are poised to start going up. It's at that point that the savvy collector jumps on the best of the best, that still exist. I never like cheating anybody, but reality is the judge when it comes to car values. The irony is that I still see these twenty five yo cars as transportation. Maybe I would feel different if there was an AACA group closer then nine hundred miles away, but for now I just enjoy driving one of my beautiful "old" cars every day. I'm content to drive comfortably, in a car that so many remember, but seldom see. Do a search for any model you choose and see what you get.

 

Bill

Edited February 5, 2020 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

The $500.00 or less almost 25 year car is the perfect vehicle for me, one mile to town,  one and a half to the town dump and home again. Bob 

[padgett]

Except the $500/25 yo car is now $1500. Anything under a grand is a project car.

[Frank DuVal]

7 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

Very different from a Park avenue or an Olds 98.

 

Well Duh, ones is front wheel drive, the other rear wheel drive.😆

 

I should know, I have both types on the road (Chevy Caprice and Park Avenue). 😉

[Ed Luddy]

I can't fathom that a 1995 Bonneville SSEi is now eligible or a 95 Riviera. Both still seem so modern to me, but up here in Canada they are almost gone due to rust.

 I've owned a few of each and they are very good daily drivers.

 I still can't get a grip on the fact C4 Corvette's are 35+ yrs old.

 

[46 woodie]

 I understand fully the need to update antique car eligibility with the 25 year rule, but I for one, have a hard time calling a 1995 vehicle an "antique car", regardless of the make. Those vehicles can be seen in the parking lot of any assisted living community in my area.

[J.H.Boland]

18 minutes ago, 46 woodie said:

  Those vehicles can be seen in the parking lot of any assisted living community in my area.

 

Sounds familiar. When I drive the '92 Park Ave on a rainy day tour, inevitably someone comments on me driving my Walmart car !

[Dynaflash8]

9 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

I'd like a good used 1995 Ford pickup to tow my 1912 Ford and 1911 Hupmoble to Hershey. Leave the trailer in my Swap Meet spot and park all three on the show field. I'd like the see the AACA Judging Committee start a class for vehicles that towed a show car to the meet in another class. Bob 

Not a bad idea, except my tower is a 2007 Chevrolet Suburban

[1937hd45]

Just now, Dynaflash8 said:

Not a bad idea, except my tower is a 2007 Chevrolet Suburban

The tow vehicle must be 25 years old. Bob 

[Dynaflash8]

12 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

 I understand fully the need to update antique car eligibility with the 25 year rule, but I for one, have a hard time calling a 1995 vehicle an "antique car", regardless of the make. Those vehicles can be seen in the parking lot of any assisted living community in my area.

Well back in 1962 they sneered at my '39 Buick as a used car and continued to do so until 1974, but I percevered and eventually served as National President of AACA.  I put 15 years and $100,000 into the National Board but I still have that '39 Buick.  I fought for the 25 year rule from 1965 to 1974, so I don't want to take it away from younger people who love the kind of car their parents took them everywhere in when they were little.  Yeah, my Park Avenue feels pretty new, sure, but now that I'm old, I need it to enjoy all the benefits of AACA fully.  See you in Miami unless some doctors stops me.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[padgett]

Also remember when my GTO was "too new" for the silver streak crowd. Just means the 93 GP GTP (DOHC-6, 5 speed manual) is now eligible. Heck every Vixen motor home ever made is now eligible.

 

 

[Ed Luddy]

I may have to search for a nice 95 Riv again. There's not even one for sale on kijiji in the province of Ontario, but a 96 for $2000 and a 97 for $1500.

Rust thinned them out as well as supercharger bearings.

 I had to replace the front subframe on a 96 ten years ago due to rust out. Got a donor from an Olds Aurora. My other mid 90's choice would be the Lincoln Mark VIII.

They are equally hard to find due to rust, suspension, and electrical problems.

[BearsFan315]

isn't 36 class for performance vehicles ?? and 27 production ??

[padgett]

I liked the Riv after they added the trunk lip. My favorites have always been two doors and prefer GM. DOHC is best but not belt drive.

 

Central Florida is "target rich" like this.

[Ed Luddy]

1 minute ago, padgett said:

I liked the Riv after they added the trunk lip. My favorites have always been two doors and prefer GM. DOHC is best but not belt drive.

 

Central Florida is "target rich" like this.

Thats a nice Riv for the money! I need a vacation to Florida.

[Dynaflash8]

On 2/4/2020 at 9:37 AM, Dynaflash8 said:

I saw in the AACA Judges Newsletter that classes had been combined for 1990-1995 cars.  For example, my Senior 1991 Buick Park Avenue which has won in Class 27S has been combined with Pontiacs and Buicks 1990-1995 in Class 36L.  I've already registered it in Class 27S at Miami.   That isn't a big deal, except it would have been better joined at the hip with an Olds 98 that any Pontiac -- my opinion of course.  I guess my main question is why?  Do I assume this was to save trophy money?  I realize these cars last longer and will run 200K-Plus if you treat them right.  A 1939 or 1941 model was lucky to run 100K without overhaul or rebuild, so I guess more people my parents' age threw them away sooner. 

 

It's not bad for me, since my car is already a Senior, but it will certainly make competition harder for other people coming along.  I have a '39 and a '41, but for the long, long distances to shows and tours from south central Florida I need a trailer.  It's not that the cars might not run to far off distances, and the '41 probably will maintain Inter-State speeds okay, but if either one of them breaks down far from home there would be no parts and, actually, no knowledgeable mechanics, to work on them.  On one tour I couldn't even find a mechanic who knew how to install points & condenser in the '71 Buick I was driving!  When I became 80, I decided I had to cut back on trailering, and probably quit it altogether after the 2020 Sentimental Tour in West Virginia.  So, what to do if I don't want to just curl up and die in Florida (I should never have moved here, except for the tax deal).  So, the best cars I ever owned were several 1991-2005 Buick Park Avenues and LeSabre Limites.  When I realized some of them were 25 years old, I found a 1991 Buick Park Avenue with only 3,061 documented miles on it.  I can drive it to shows and tours anywhere I want to go, because the car was built more or less the same mechanically through 2005.  Young mechanics know how to work on it, and parts houses still have parts.  I think at 81 years old, that is no cop-out.  I can still do what I've done for 58 years in AACA and be with old friends and enjoy (a much as possible) the same things I've always done in AACA since 1962.

 

With so many of us getting so much older, and young people more interested in APPS than AUTOS and club costs increasing every day, I guess the leaders had to start coming up with some new plans.  Might I suggest combining some of the classes for the really old cars.  We only see 0-3 most times in any of those early classes.  Just a thought.

Thanks guys for the LIKE, expecially Paul Dobbin my old friend.

 

[Buffalowed Bill]

Ed,

 

You're right this is the time to jump, here's your car. I always liked the look, only thing against it is FWD. That and the fact Sweetie doesn't like the looks of the rear of the car. 

I drive Mark VIII's (2) daily and a 95 TBird. Not a speck of rust on any of them, beautiful original paint on all three (196K miles on the green 1994)). I also have a 96 TBird that I crashed in Bakersfield, three years ago. We strapped the hood down and limped it home, hung some sheet metal, but haven't finished the project 260K miles on that car and no rust, and shinny paint. Moral of the story if you want to play this game you need to go west young man.

 https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/ctd/d/cornelius-1995-buick-riviera/7066073569.html

 

Bill

[padgett]

Didn't think they had the trunk lid upsweep in '95, was it only some Rivs ?

[Ed Luddy]

FWD isn't my 1st choice either. But the 3800 Series II is such a great engine. I never realized how scarce they are now since I started looking for them. Ontario winters loaded with salted roads have killed 'em all off!

[Ed Luddy]

Maybe time to find another Roadmaster or Cadi Brougham. A bit higher survival rate

[padgett]

FWD/RWD, doesn't make much difference in a road car and Harry Miller did well with FWD in race cars. Only issue with FWD - which way do you stagger the wheels ? Wide on front ?

 

Roadmaster is a great car, lotsa power, RWD, just one gotcha: the OptiSpark.

[Dynaflash8]

On 2/5/2020 at 6:00 PM, BearsFan315 said:

isn't 36 class for performance vehicles ?? and 27 production ??

I registered in 27S at Miami, but I understand from the Judges Newsletter the Brass has made some changes and now I'm in 36L.  Just going with the flow.

 

[Ed Luddy]

3 hours ago, padgett said:

FWD/RWD, doesn't make much difference in a road car and Harry Miller did well with FWD in race cars. Only issue with FWD - which way do you stagger the wheels ? Wide on front ?

 

Roadmaster is a great car, lotsa power, RWD, just one gotcha: the OptiSpark.

 Yes have changed them before as well as the waterpump! LS is a better alternative to the LT-1, but still a year away on the 96 Corvette.