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NEW CLASSES FOR 1990-1995 CARS


Dynaflash8

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Opti Spark gets bad press, but I have had real good life from them. Maybe because mine are 94 or newer, the second generation. 386k put on two vehicles, replaced one water pump and distributor cap kit Of course now one or two will be in my future....ūüėĀ.

 

AND the distributor cap/rotor/shield¬†have come way down in price from what friends paid for them back in the late 90s.ūüĎć

 

Just need an E4 inverted Torx socket......

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Guest Mark McAlpine
On 2/4/2020 at 8:37 AM, Dynaflash8 said:

I saw in the AACA Judges Newsletter that classes had been combined for 1990-1995 cars.  For example, my Senior 1991 Buick Park Avenue which has won in Class 27S has been combined with Pontiacs and Buicks 1990-1995 in Class 36L.  I've already registered it in Class 27S at Miami.   That isn't a big deal, except it would have been better joined at the hip with an Olds 98 that any Pontiac -- my opinion of course.  I guess my main question is why?  Do I assume this was to save trophy money?  I realize these cars last longer and will run 200K-Plus if you treat them right.  A 1939 or 1941 model was lucky to run 100K without overhaul or rebuild, so I guess more people my parents' age threw them away sooner. 

 

It's not bad for me, since my car is already a Senior, but it will certainly make competition harder for other people coming along.  I have a '39 and a '41, but for the long, long distances to shows and tours from south central Florida I need a trailer.  It's not that the cars might not run to far off distances, and the '41 probably will maintain Inter-State speeds okay, but if either one of them breaks down far from home there would be no parts and, actually, no knowledgeable mechanics, to work on them.  On one tour I couldn't even find a mechanic who knew how to install points & condenser in the '71 Buick I was driving!  When I became 80, I decided I had to cut back on trailering, and probably quit it altogether after the 2020 Sentimental Tour in West Virginia.  So, what to do if I don't want to just curl up and die in Florida (I should never have moved here, except for the tax deal).  So, the best cars I ever owned were several 1991-2005 Buick Park Avenues and LeSabre Limites.  When I realized some of them were 25 years old, I found a 1991 Buick Park Avenue with only 3,061 documented miles on it.  I can drive it to shows and tours anywhere I want to go, because the car was built more or less the same mechanically through 2005.  Young mechanics know how to work on it, and parts houses still have parts.  I think at 81 years old, that is no cop-out.  I can still do what I've done for 58 years in AACA and be with old friends and enjoy (a much as possible) the same things I've always done in AACA since 1962.

 

With so many of us getting so much older, and young people more interested in APPS than AUTOS and club costs increasing every day, I guess the leaders had to start coming up with some new plans.  Might I suggest combining some of the classes for the really old cars.  We only see 0-3 most times in any of those early classes.  Just a thought.

Hello Earl,

 

    Your Park Avenue isn't changing classes.  Class 36 is for factory high performance cars.  Only the vehicles specifically listed in each of the Class 36 subcategories (36A - 36P) in the Official Judging Guidelines compete in those categories.  Right now the only vehicles listed in the new Class 36L for 1990-1995 Buick and Pontiacs are the Pontiac Formula Firebirds and Trans Am Firebirds with the LT1 V8.  So don't worry--your beautiful Park Avenue is in the correct class for Miami.

 

    These new Class 36 sub-classes were created because the high performance classes continue to grow in size on our show fields, and we wanted to not only limit the size of each class to keep it manageable for judging (and our judges), but, probably more importantly, not to make late-1950's, 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's vehicles compete with 1990's vehicles (and eventually 2000's vehicles--hard to believe they're that close to being eligible to be on an AACA show field, isn't it?).  As you know technology, design, and performance is significantly different in these generations of vehicles.

 

    Any owner who believes their vehicle should be included in Class 36 should submit a written request, including factory documentation, to the Specified Class Acceptance Committee (SCC), which will review the request and make a recommendation to the Judging Committee.  The owner will be notified of the Judging Committee's decision (whether the vehicle will be added to Class 36 or remain in Class 27 Production Vehicles).  (Same process as it's always been.)

 

    I look forward to seeing you in Miami!

Edited by Mark McAlpine
Corrected a couple typos (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, Mark McAlpine said:

Hello Earl,

 

    Your Park Avenue isn't changing classes.  Class 36 is for factory high performance cars.  Only the vehicles specifically listed in each of the Class 36 subcategories (36A - 36P) in the Official Judging Guidelines compete in those categories.  Right now the only vehicles listed in the new Class 36L for 1990-1995 Buick and Pontiacs are the Pontiac Formula Firebirds and Trans Am Firebirds with the LT1 V8.  So don't worry--your beautiful Park Avenue is in the correct class for Miami.

 

    These new Class 36 sub-classes were created because the high performance classes continue to grow in size on our show fields, and we're wanted to not only limit the size of each class to keep it manageable for judging (and our judges), but probably more importantly not to make late-1950's, 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's vehicles compete with 1990's vehicles (and eventually 2000's vehicles--hard to believe they're that close to being eligible to be on an AACA show field, isn't it?).  As you know technology, design, and performance is significantly different in these generations vehicles.

 

    Any owner who believe their vehicle should be included in Class 36 should submit a written request, including factory documentation, to the Specified Class Acceptance Committee (SCC), which will review the request and make a recommendation to the Judging Committee.  The owner will be notified of the Judging Committee's decision (whether the vehicle will be added to Class 36 or remain in Class 27 Production Vehicles.  (Same process as it's always been.)

 

    I look forward to seeing you in Miami!

Mark,

     Thank you for that clarification.  I didn't see it at first, but another member called it to my attention and when I read it, it certainly wasn't clear.  I agree with the decision to keep my old Park in Class 27.  It may be wise to clarify the wording that was in the Judges Newsletter.  In fact it may be a good idea for YOU to start a new thread here for clarification so that everybody will truly see it.  This was the first Annual in Philadelphia that I have missed since 1965.  The problem is time is catching up.  I was sick this whole past week.  I just hope I'm good to go for Miami and I think I will be.  Best Earl Beauchamp

 

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Guest Mark McAlpine

Hello Earl,

 

    Sorry to hear that you've been ill.  I wondered why you weren't in Philadelphia--Marion & I (and many other people) missed seeing you and Judy.  I hope you recover quickly and look forward to seeing you in Miami.

 

    I hope that after reading this thread (and after the 2020 Official Judging Guidelines are posted on the AACA website and members start receiving them at Judging School) any member with questions about the newly added Class 36 High Performance Vehicles sub-classes will understand the changes only expand Class 36 and don't impact Class 27 Production Vehicles.

 

    See you in Miami, Earl--safe travels!

 

               Mark Mc

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It is disappointing to see the negative comments throughout this thread about 1990s eligible cars in AACA, and it is equally as disappointing to see the time and time again generalization of young people not caring about cars, new or old.  It is this EXACT mentality that will drive away young individuals who stumble upon AACA and find a non accepting group of individuals who write them off from the start. Times are a changin'...get ready to see people with 1990s cars at our shows and be ready to welcome them with open arms. This has been a trend for decades in this club starting with opposition to model A's in the 50s. I was happy to be involved with presentations at the Annual Meeting regarding these same topics and can only hope that some of it sticks with this group.  

 

Signed, 

The 24 year old who loves his 1922 Franklin and his 1994 Ford Ranger, AND EVERYTHING IN-BETWEEN, because that what AACA is. 

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3 hours ago, Matt Goist said:

This has been a trend for decades in this club starting with opposition to model A's in the 50s.

 

Yes! I tried joining the AACA back when I was young. (20s). I liked 50s cars, which were just hitting the 25 year mark. Such¬†a warm welcome I got......ūü•Ķ

 

Several years later I talked with a co-worker with a 51 Ford truck. He also got the same warm reception....ūüė߬† ¬†The members went back to talking about Packards, and Rolls, etc of the 30s.

 

I did not show back to a meeting until I was in my 60s, and in a different region to. So, 40 years without joining AACA.  The guy with the Ford truck never did join, why would he?

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When judging a "modern, antique car" will the car be disqualified from judging if the Service Engine light is on? I'm curious how the car can even be judged like cars of the '20s, '30s and '40s.

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WIth the exception of needing to drive onto the show field, there is no operational test for AACA judging. No one checks any lights/heater/accessories for operation, etc.

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20 hours ago, Matt Goist said:

It is disappointing to see the negative comments throughout this thread about 1990s eligible cars in AACA, and it is equally as disappointing to see the time and time again generalization of young people not caring about cars, new or old.  It is this EXACT mentality that will drive away young individuals who stumble upon AACA and find a non accepting group of individuals who write them off from the start. Times are a changin'...get ready to see people with 1990s cars at our shows and be ready to welcome them with open arms. This has been a trend for decades in this club starting with opposition to model A's in the 50s. I was happy to be involved with presentations at the Annual Meeting regarding these same topics and can only hope that some of it sticks with this group.  

 

Signed, 

The 24 year old who loves his 1922 Franklin and his 1994 Ford Ranger, AND EVERYTHING IN-BETWEEN, because that what AACA is. 

 

I have to admit that is a big reason I stayed away from the AACA for so many years. I didn't even discover the website had a forum until last year...

 

I'm all about documenting history. That's my passion, in the automotive world and my other hobbies. History doesn't stop at some arbitrary date. While I don't really like the 25 year rule, I don't really complain because it's just a matter of time before everything is accepted...but not welcomed. And, to be honest, I don't really contribute much of anything worthwhile so any complaints I have shouldn't really have any input anyway. I am well aware I am not important enough to any aspect of the hobby to have any influence. 

 

I just love cars...all cars. And I will continue to photo document as many of them as I possibly can, old or new, stock or not. It doesn't matter. If it's at a show I'm at, I will photograph it.

 

With that said, I do prefer factory stock. I can even tell you the exact date I switched from being of the rod & custom persuasion to factory stock. I saw a rare car (to me, anyway, a Terraplane) modified, and not tastefully, at the Goodguys East Coast Nationals. Right then and there, my thoughts were along the lines of "that's just wrong" and in the past 12 years I've gone more and more towards the factory stock crowd. And that led me here. 

 

While I'm not saying everyone has to like everything like I do, I am saying it's wrong to constantly belittle and insult the people who don't align fully with your particular fixation. 

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Guest Mark McAlpine
On 2/5/2020 at 6:00 PM, BearsFan315 said:

isn't 36 class for performance vehicles ?? and 27 production ??

 

Hello Jerry.  Yes, Class 27 is for Production Vehicles and Class 36 is for Factory High Performance Vehicles (of which each make & model of vehicle has to be specifically reviewed and approved to be included in their respective sub-classes).

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Guest Mark McAlpine
On 2/10/2020 at 12:01 PM, padgett said:

Interesting. Sounds like Reattae go in class 29 as would Allantes and Fieros. Northstar Allantes might go in 36. Wonder if a DOHC Grand Prix would go in 36a.

 

Hello Padgett,

 

    Owners of 3.6L DOHC Grand Prix GTPs can apply to have that model included in Class 36L, but I doubt they'd be approved--the engine only had 200 HP (not exactly "high performance" even for that era).  By comparison, 1993 Chevrolet Camaro Z28s and Pontiac Firebird Formulas and Trans Ams had 275 hp.

 

    Don't get me wrong--I love Grand Prix GTPs (especially the 1994-1996s in the first generation of GTPs because they had better dash layouts without the bulging, cheap-looking switches of the earlier years).  We special ordered (through GM employee purchase) a 1994 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP--white with beige leather interior and gold wheels, and added gold pinstripes--and loved it.  It was a great performing & handling vehicle, very comfortable on long road trips, and got great fuel economy.  I wish I had it back.  Made the mistake of giving it to a niece in about 2000.  The next time I saw it a year later (I was on active duty and only got home once a year) it was missing a couple fender flares.  The year after that the entire left side was caved in.  (It wasn't my niece's fault, but she couldn't afford to have it repaired.)  I was heartbroken--the car deserved better.  Again, I wish I had it back today--would love to show it and also drive it on Founders Tours.

 

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I had a 1993 Twin Double Overhead Cam GTP with a five speed Getrag (last year offered). That "200hp" was artificial. Once the factory tune had been "improved" a bit (MOTES.NET & CATS helped) it gave Porches fits. Suspect that may have been one of the first GM engines with a 7,000 rpm redline but had a cam belt, not a chain and was black so I did not keep it.

 

 

infrontside.jpg

gtpdash24may.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Mark McAlpine

So, out of curiosity, what was the HP and torque after you added a new cat-back exhaust and tweaked the engine electronics?  The screen capture of the scan tool reading doesn't show those specs, just the RPM, engine coolant temp, manifold absolute pressure, manifold air temp reading, target air-fuel ratio 14.7:1 (perfect stoichiometric ratio), etc.  

 

As I said, I loved our 1995 Grand Prix GTP and wish I had it back.  They're great cars--I like their appearance and they had great handling & good performance for their time--but I don't believe 200 HP in the mid 1990s would be considered high performance by the Specified Class Committee.  (That doesn't mean anyone owning a Grand Prix GTP or the newer GTX--when they become eligible for AACA judging--can't submit it to the SCC for consideration of being added to Class 36.  I may be wrong and the SCC might approve it.  The worst the SCC can do is say no--the car belongs in Class 27 Production Vehicles.)

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Never had on dyno but when acquired wheelspin was only in 1st, after was in 1,2,& 3 and gave a couple of 911s fits. 7.000 rpm was Right Now. Did shift nicely.

 

Already had cat back when I bought it and a few other mods, In many ways I removed the aftermarket stuff and replaced the original (lke the Delco radio with steering wheel controls). Most of what I did was to make it run cooler - 180f thermostat/bring the fans in sooner, richen up & advance WOT a bit & turn the embedded 15.7 cruise program on (low load, over 60 mph), beyond that mostly replaced the plugs with itridioum& new comp-II BFGs for the stock 16x8 rims (still have the 17" "Minilite" wheels that were on it. Also replaced the K&N air filter with a large paper element (didn't want to chance fouling the MAF).

Remember pulling the plenium to fix something but not exactly what.

 

All in all it was much closer to stock afterwards then when I got it. Just do not care for black cars or cam timing belts...

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On 2/11/2020 at 10:50 AM, Frank DuVal said:

WIth the exception of needing to drive onto the show field, there is no operational test for AACA judging. No one checks any lights/heater/accessories for operation, etc.

 I've never been closer then nine hundred miles from an AACA judging, so I was dumbfounded to find that no car function operational checks are done at the time of judging.  Is this true, and what is the justification? It sounds like my experience at Pebble Beach! No concours in which I've participated, as a contestant or judge, other then PB, have failed to test a car's functional systems. It's been about ten years since I had a car judged at a CCCA event, but unless something has changed, it was part of the judging.

 

Bill

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