The Car Which Shall Not Be Named III (1935 Lincoln K)

[HarryLime]

That picture does not show a castle nut . Should it be ?

[AB-Buff]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Don't cut the drums......grind them. That said, I would do the bearings all around, and lubricate the brake linkage............but I would leave the adjustment alone. Good time to flush the rear end and transmission while you are doing nothing. Also, check the fluid in the steering box. And........do the shackles while you are at it. If you need more suggestions, just ask and I'll keep you busy and broke.

Matt if you’re going to drive it those are all wonderful suggestions. They’re easy to do and doesn’t take long.

[Matt Harwood]

3 hours ago, AB-Buff said:

Matt if you’re going to drive it those are all wonderful suggestions. They’re easy to do and doesn’t take long.

 

True. Front drums, no problem. How about the rears? What's involved with pulling that floating axle apart to get to the bearings? Remove axle shafts? Are the bearings pressed onto the axles? I haven't looked at it. Any advice?

[ply33]

29 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

True. Front drums, no problem. How about the rears? What's involved with pulling that floating axle apart to get to the bearings? Remove axle shafts? Are the bearings pressed onto the axles? I haven't looked at it. Any advice?

By the mid-1930s there were factory service manuals for some other makes. Did Lincoln not produce one? Are reprints available (I am too messy in the shop to have original vintage documentation there)?

[Matt Harwood]

1 minute ago, ply33 said:

By the mid-1930s there were factory service manuals for some other makes. Did Lincoln not produce one? Are reprints available (I am too messy in the shop to have original vintage documentation there)?

 

Unfortunately, no. There is no service manual for the Lincoln K. There's a pretty good owner's manual and some supplements that they released as problems popped up (like modern TSBs) but no service manual as we know them. That's what makes some of this so frustrating. There are a few mentions of adjusting brakes, but nothing showing how they are assembled or what's involved in taking them apart. I just don't want to get so far into it that I can't get back to zero, which happens to me frequently. It all appears to be familiar, but once it's apart, well, it might not be. I just don't want to make a mistake that will cost me time and frustration.

[JV Puleo]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

True. Front drums, no problem. How about the rears? What's involved with pulling that floating axle apart to get to the bearings? Remove axle shafts? Are the bearings pressed onto the axles? I haven't looked at it. Any advice?

 

Is is a full floating axle? If so, the bearings will not be pressed on to the axle itself - that's the idea. They should be in the hub so that the only force the axle transmits is torque. The entire weight of the car is taken on the rear axle tubes. Full floating axles were commonly used on trucks and expensive, heavy cars so I'd think a Lincoln K qualifies.

[AB-Buff]

Matt it’s been about a year since I took my rear hubs off. But I want to say there’s a snap ring or something that looks like a snap ring that goes around the outside of the hub it comes right off after that the axel will slide out and then you can get to the nuts it is a full floating differential. I usually take a lot of photos unfortunately I only took these two. Hope it helps

Edited June 24, 2021 by AB-Buff (see edit history)

[AB-Buff]

I thought I would run out to the shop pop a hub cap off and take a picture, the screwdriver is pointing to where the ring ends come together. It comes out pretty easy.

[Matt Harwood]

7 hours ago, AB-Buff said:

Matt it’s been about a year since I took my rear hubs off. But I want to say there’s a snap ring or something that looks like a snap ring that goes around the outside of the hub it comes right off after that the axel will slide out and then you can get to the nuts it is a full floating differential. I usually take a lot of photos unfortunately I only took these two. Hope it helps

 

Thank you, Lynn. That's exactly what I hoped to see. I guess I'll tear into it this weekend.

[AB-Buff]

After you take the rear cover off the differential don’t forget to count the teeth to make sure you have what you think you have as far as a ratio.

There are a couple of felt seals like the ones on your front hubs, mine were in good shape I didn’t have to mess with them. But there are also two more felt seals up in the axle housing near differential gears, you can’t see them with the third member in. I didn’t change those either. In order to do that you’d have to remove the third member. So be careful removing and replacing the axle.

Lynn

[edinmass]

Matt....there are a few good brake adjustment books published in the late 30's that cover almost every car. At this point in my life, I only do brakes one way........tear everything apart, fix EVERYTHING, set it all back to new, and then adjust it.......the most important thing is to machine the friction to the drums using a Barrett Brake Doktor..it's the ONLY way to make early brakes systems function as intended. 

[AB-Buff]

12 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

Unfortunately, no. There is no service manual for the Lincoln K. There's a pretty good owner's manual and some supplements that they released as problems popped up (like modern TSBs) but no service manual as we know them. That's what makes some of this so frustrating. There are a few mentions of adjusting brakes, but nothing showing how they are assembled or what's involved in taking them apart. I just don't want to get so far into it that I can't get back to zero, which happens to me frequently. It all appears to be familiar, but once it's apart, well, it might not be. I just don't want to make a mistake that will cost me time and frustration.

Matt there are service manuals for K available through the Lincoln Owners Club starting January 31 and runs through 39 and cover some Zephur. I want to say you can get them through Joe Rogers? Or maybe Jim Griffin? Anyway the info is in the LOC fork and blade

Lynn

Edited June 24, 2021 by AB-Buff (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Yep, I've got those.

[edinmass]

It’s funny.......back 40 years ago I cursed the company’s that didn’t make shop manuals.............today I just dig in and get it done. Ten thousand hours spinning wrenches makes you numb to shop manuals pre 1970. I have about ten go to friends for any issues I want or need help with. Sadly most are in their 80’s now and NONE are under fifty. Old school craftsmanship and values are quickly dying off. Remember when buying a car when a handshake was all that was necessary? Show up with a trailer, take the car home with the title, and send a check in the next few days? The most expensive car deal I ever handled was done that way...........a gentleman came to my house and bought my favorite car that wasn’t for sale. He showed up unannounced and said, I’m here for the car. Some day I need to right a book about all the insane adventures that pre war cars have brought into my life. I wouldn’t trade it for money....or the world. Car people are the most interesting humans on the planet. Also the most schizophrenic. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[HarryLime]

I am waiting in line for the book , Ed . Just don't wait until I'm 80 !

[edinmass]

A few friends want to start a podcast on pre war cars with some of the regulars here.........It’s probably going to happen if we get enough support. Probably a call in to fix you problems........car problems....not your personality. Anyone have any thoughts? Ed.

[Matt Harwood]

I have spent some time thinking about my carburetor return spring that's broken. I know I can probably disassemble the shaft--there's a pin in there--but after trying a few different techniques to remove it, well, it doesn't seem to want to budge without some substantial force. Given that I'm this close to making it run, I'm not sure I want to risk breaking some unobtainium little part on an equally unobtainium carb. I stopped.

 

The other night I was looking at photos of the engine when I first bought the car and sure enough, there's a return spring mounted on the carburetor. In fact, I even removed the bracket during disassembly, sandblasted it, and had it powdercoated, although I forgot what it was for when I finally got it back from the shop. Well, there it is and that's what it does. It looks almost like it belongs there, but I don't believe it does and I don't see such a spring on any other Model Ks. However, it acknowledges that this return spring was a problem going back quite a ways and nobody felt like tearing the carburetor apart to solve it. So for now, I'm going to put it back together with the extra spring. It looks OEM enough and it's really mandatory for safety reasons. The alternative might be to try to find a less visible spot on the linkage where it could be mounted, so I'll look into that once the engine is back in the car.

 

Throttle return spring and bracket. Someone already

engineered the solution.

 

And it has obviously been that way for a long time.
It was on the car when I got it.

 

I even powdercoated the little bracket.

[Cadillac Fan]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

A few friends want to start a podcast on pre war cars with some of the regulars here.........It’s probably going to happen if we get enough support. Probably a call in to fix you problems........car problems....not your personality. Anyone have any thoughts? Ed.

Love the idea.  Will definitely subscribe. 

[Matt Harwood]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

A few friends want to start a podcast on pre war cars with some of the regulars here.........It’s probably going to happen if we get enough support. Probably a call in to fix you problems........car problems....not your personality. Anyone have any thoughts? Ed.

 

I'd participate in that. I've been told I have a face for radio.

[Ken_P]

2 hours ago, Cadillac Fan said:

Will definitely subscribe.

Same.

[edinmass]

All donations to the show will go towards a charity that restores White Automobiles..........got to give back to the poor and down trodden don’t you know.........

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

All donations to the show will go towards a charity that restores White Automobiles..........got to give back to the poor and down trodden don’t you know.......

Ed, the last time you were collecting for a charity you said it was The Poor Child's Home....and you finally admitted that you were the poor child....

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Grimy said:

Ed, the last time you were collecting for a charity you said it was The Poor Child's Home....and you finally admitted that you were the poor child....

 

Insert the famous line about being born a poor child by Steve Martin.

 

Remember the other line that also fits........”don’t trust Whitey.”

[Matt Harwood]

Tackled the front brakes and bearings today. Nothing surprising or unusual. Assembled just the way I expected and came apart without a fight, which was a nice surprise. Didn't even need a puller. I simply cleaned all the parts, re-packed the wheel bearings, and put it all back together. On the driver's side, the grease was in good shape and thick, and there was A LOT of it in there--like an entire tube's worth in the reservoir between the bearings. That took a lot of work to clean and I burned through nearly three full tubes of Mobil 1 grease to refill everything. However on the passenger side, the grease was thin and watery and I noticed some discoloration on the spindle. The hardware was especially tight and needed a hammer on the special wrench to knock it loose. I suspect someone over-tightened the bearings and they got hot. The bearings seemed OK so I reassembled it carefully and didn't over-torque it. I checked, and both the inner and outer bearings are still available new, so if I need them I can get them.

 

Then I cleaned the bearings and re-packed them, then reassembled everything. Even the felt seals were in decent shape, albeit a little hard. I think I'll run them and see what happens. 

 

And there's absolutely NO WAY I would have been able to disassemble the brakes without that special wrench. I'm glad I found one just when I needed it.

 

Brakes are in excellent shape. A remarkably simple

mechanism.

 

Plenty of brake material left on the shoes.

 

Cleaned and lubricated.

 

  

Instead of a traditional castle nut, the Lincoln uses a threaded washer with a small

peg on it. Tighten that up against the bearings and use the special wrench to

get it just snug. Then the indexed lock ring slips over it and the large nut and

cotter pin simply hold the lock ring in place. Note lots of fresh Mobil 1 grease.

 

Passenger spindle shows some discoloration, perhaps

from the bearings being a little tight and getting hot.

 

  

Outer and inner  bearings, respectively, should you need the part numbers.
New bearings appear to be available from Timken under these same numbers.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Digging in and knocking out items like the front bearings are very important. Now you can drive it for the next thirty years and forget about the bearings. On the 1917 White we considered skipping the rear wheel bearing since the car was so low mileage and looked good to the eye when we pulled the caps. Decided to just do it right and take it apart to clean.........what did we find? Two huge bearings that were bad on both sides. That’s why I  always do it right, inspect EVERYTHING! Matt got in and out with only time and some grease. Knowing your car doesn’t have any issues is much better than.......what’s that funny noise/vibration? And wondering if you shouldn’t have skipped the bearings. Also, going through the entire car gives one long term confidence in the car’s ability to perform. My 17 White was ENTIRELY gone through......every system. It’s never given ten minutes trouble since we finished it. It was the right way to do it. All the work and money are soon forgotten, and now I jump in the car without thought to breaking down.........interestingly I consider it more reliable than my modern cars.......with a magneto and a vacuum tank, once it starts, it won’t stop until it runs out of gas.

Edited June 27, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Dove into the rear axle to grease the bearings and check the brakes. It's similar to the front axle, although it uses a variety of different seals and a slightly different way of securing the bearings. It's a full floating axle, meaning that the axle shafts simply turn the drums and hubs without carrying any weight. All the weight is carried by the bearings in the brake drum itself. Once I understood how it was all held together, it wasn't very difficult to disassemble, although I was stymied for a few minutes while I examined the inner seal--I wasn't sure whether I could just slide it out and I'm hesitant to use force. But pulling on it lightly with some needle-nose pliers and it slid right out.

 

My biggest concern is the seals. There was A LOT of grease and gunk in the brake area, including all over the secondary shoe on the bottom of the drum. That suggests it has been leaking for quite some time. I noticed some moisture on the outside of the hub when I first got the car and it seems that it was indeed leaking. The seals were in OK condition, not ruined or frayed, but maybe compressed a bit. My other concern was that all the grease in this hub was VERY watery, and after I saw the lock nuts (below) I could only assume that they had been over-tightened. The manual stresses that the bearings must never be over-tightened and perhaps it over-heated and liquified the grease that was in there, which pushed past the seals. Maybe having it properly torqued along with new grease will eliminate the leak. We'll see. Check it out:

 

Step one was pulling the axle. It is secured to the hub

of the drum with a snap ring. Remove the snap ring

and the axle slides right out. Note the felt seal still
inside the "teeth" of the hub.

 

  

Axle is in good shape, although I noted some scoring on the inner

race where it sits in what I can only assume is another bearing and

inner seal.

 

  

With the axle out, you have access to the nut holding the outer bearing

in place, as well as the seals (arrows). I wasn't sure how to remove the seals
and obviously my special wrench wouldn't fit in there to remove the
nut, so the seal must be removable. I coaxed it out gently with a pair

of pliers. Also note that the last guy in here obviously did NOT have

the special wrench and simply used a chisel to remove the lock nut.

Hack work at its finest. I was able to save the nut by grinding the flats true.

 

Once the retaining nut, lock washer, and second

retaining nut are removed, the outer bearing comes

out and the drum can be removed. Note the grease

at the bottom--it's been leaking for a while.

 

Lots of grease on the secondary shoe. I cleaned

it up and used brake cleaner to sterilize the 

brake shoe so hopefully it'll be OK.

 

Inner bearing has its own seal. This is the one I

suspect was the leaker. I put it back together but

if I can figure out how to find replacement seals
then I'll take it apart again and install new seals.

This seal had to be tapped into the hub with a

hammer and a block of wood, then secured with

a wire lock ring in the drum's hub.

 

All cleaned up and ready for reassembly.

 

All the bearings in the rear end are Timken 377, which are

commonly available for about $50 each. Mine

were in good condition so I re-packed them and

put them back in place.

 

So I need to figure out how to buy new felt axle seals. I used to just call George at Olcar Bearing Co., but sadly he has passed away. I don't really know how to order seals and none of these have part numbers. George just knew what I needed somehow. Any suggestions? I'd like to have new seals, just in case.

 

This took about four hours, so I only did the driver's side. I'll do the passenger side tomorrow after work. Hopefully the second time goes faster and easier than the first.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

You should take some measurements before you reassemble it...OD, ID (shaft size) and thickness. Felt seals are still readily available but are sold by their dimensions in the industrial world. The chances are that Lincoln used a readily available seal and there is a reasonably good chance it's still made.

 

I see you finished one side...when you do the other side would be the time to measure everything. It may take some digging and you may have to send the dimensions to several different vendors. Usually, they don't have a catalog, probably because there are literally thousands of variations. A lot of parts that have long since been discontinued by auto parts suppliers are still available through industrial suppliers. - Actually, the late Dave Domidian told me that about 40 years ago and it's been a life saver ever since.

Edited June 28, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[just me]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233208208108?hash=item364c4adaec:g:D~wAAOSwKVtcrC0n

 

Matt

Scroll down and there are a number of felt seals by this vendor. Maybe he has what you require.

 

Best

Charley

 

[edinmass]

Matt.....place the brake shoes in a oven and broil them for four hours after you chemically clean them, it’s the only way to get all the oil out.....unless you reline. I have done this many times.........

 

 

Bet you’re glad you took it apart.

 

Inner seals are probably leather with springs and clips.......similar to what Cadillac used on your 29. I have always been able to replace them with modern seals. The same story......do it now......or when on tour. With everything apart, they are easy to change as long as the diff has a removable rear cover. Besides, the water pump isn’t done......so you have time!🥸
 

 

PS- Melanie will kick you in the ass if you use the oven in the kitchen.............if she is home(😎), so use one of those cheap toaster oven things from Walmart to heat them. I have had the same unit since the 70’s and it works fine.

Edited June 28, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[m-mman]

19 hours ago, edinmass said:

Inner seals are probably leather with springs and clips.......similar to what Cadillac used on your 29. I have always been able to replace them with modern seals.

No, my 29 Cad has all felt seals, front and rear. I did get them on eBay, maybe from the vendor shown above(?)

 

Ed, new modern neoprene seals??  

I have heard that the felt seals breathe and they also act as the vent for the rear axle assembly. When felt is replaced with neoprene, the axle is 'air tight' and grease can be forced past the modern seal unless a vent is also drilled and installed. Any comments? 

[Grimy]

41 minutes ago, m-mman said:

I have heard that the felt seals breathe and they also act as the vent for the rear axle assembly. When felt is replaced with neoprene, the axle is 'air tight' and grease can be forced past the modern seal unless a vent is also drilled and installed. Any comments? 

I agree, FWIW.  Probably the easiest way to create a vent is to have the top bolt in the cover drilled lengthwise, all the way through.  I don't think anyone will notice.

[Matt Harwood]

First, a little preview:

 

 

I'm actually quite pleased with the look, as is Melanie. The trim rings brighten the wheels up enough that it doesn't look too overpowering and dark. Of course, we won't know until it's together and on the ground, but I'm pretty happy. My tire shop that does heavy trucks found a set of 16-inch truck inner tubes and mounted everything without any difficulties. The bill? $140, including four new $17 tubes. It's about time something on this car was cheap. I also have my original Denmans if anyone wants them. They're still in good shape and have almost no wear, but I wouldn't drive on them. But if you have a roller or a car that doesn't see much highway time, perhaps they'll be useful. No charge--that means FREE--but I'm not shipping them so you'll have to come get them.

 

Anyone need some serviceable, albeit octagon-shaped

Denman whitewalls, size 7.50x17? Otherwise

Melanie is going to use them as planters.

 

I also tore into the right rear brake hub to re-pack the bearings. I contacted the eBay seller that @just me recommended and he responded instantly (on a Sunday night!) that he could make any seals I want. Today I took some measurements and will forward them to this supplier and see what he comes up with. I'll leave this hub disassembled for now since I expect to have new seals sometime soon. The passenger's side was in better shape than the driver's side, the bearings were properly adjusted so the wheel turned easily, and the lock nut wasn't chewed up. I think Hacky McBadwrench only worked on that one corner since it was the only one damaged and the only one not packed tight with grease.

Yes, there was A LOT of grease. The bearings weren't just packed with it, but the entire space inside the hub between the bearings was filled with grease, too. Like a POUND of grease on each corner (I used one full tube per corner re-packing them). I re-packed the front hubs using a lot of grease, but I can't imagine why it would be that way. I should admit that this wouldn't be the first time I got in trouble by putting things back the way I found them (reference my 1941 Buick thread for details). I don't think it needs all that grease in there--as long as the bearings are packed, they should be fine. The only thing all that extra grease can do is migrate past the seals and make a mess. I think I may disassemble the front hubs and remove all that extra grease. Meh.

 

  

There's what some might call a metric sh*t-ton of grease in the hubs.
I don't think it needs to be there, so I'll clean it out and re-pack the bearings.

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, m-mman said:

No, my 29 Cad has all felt seals, front and rear. I did get them on eBay, maybe from the vendor shown above(?)

 

Ed, new modern neoprene seals??  

I have heard that the felt seals breathe and they also act as the vent for the rear axle assembly. When felt is replaced with neoprene, the axle is 'air tight' and grease can be forced past the modern seal unless a vent is also drilled and installed. Any comments? 

 

Drove a half dozen different 1931 Cadillac’s for tens of thousands of miles without problems........

Edited June 29, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Drove a half dozen different 1931 Cadillac’s for tens of thousands of miles without problems........

They call him "Mr. Lucky".....

[Cadillac Fan]

The tires look great.  Great choice. 

[alsancle]

Tires look Awesome!

[Matt Harwood]

55 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Tires look Awesome!

 

That means a lot coming from "Mr. Blackwall" himself. All I need now is for West to give it his blessing.

[alsancle]

31 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

That means a lot coming from "Mr. Blackwall" himself. All I need now is for West to give it his blessing.

 

Yes,  that would complete the blackwall mafia's review.

[ericmac]

On 6/24/2021 at 5:31 PM, Cadillac Fan said:

Love the idea.  Will definitely subscribe. 

 I too would subscribe and would be a frequent caller!

[AB-Buff]

Matt after you get this engine running (hopefully soon) put a vacuum gauge on the port just below the carburetor On the manifold and see what it is. Then when you install it in the car check it again. You may end up having to go through your brake system. There’s a couple of vacuum diaphragms that can go away in time. One is the adjustment that you have on your steering column there’s a diaphragm in there that can develop a leak and then there is what I call an actuator switch controlled by the brake pedal. When you press the brake on it pulls a rod which allows vacuum to go through your selector switch on the steering column to the brake booster underneath the car. When I got mine somebody had rebuilt the booster but they did not mess with the selector switch on the steering column or the actuator switch off of the brake pedal. Both diaphragms had holes in them. The car still ran well but I was losing vacuum. 

selector, mounts to steering column 

bad diaphragm 

 

 

 

 

actuator mounts to break linkage

Edited July 3, 2021 by AB-Buff (see edit history)