Repair Wear With Weld?

[MochetVelo]

Here is a front engine mount from a 1924 Citroen. Both parts have wear and a very loose fit. Could I use weld to build up the male part, then turn it on a lathe? I was also thinking of inserting a bushing in the female part. 

 

Phil

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by MochetVelo (see edit history)

[DonMicheletti]

You could build with weld, provided that the steel alloy is not hardenable. If it is, welding could cause it to get very hard and possibly crack.

 

Otherwise you are OK. Build up with weld is common

[crazycars]

why not get it sleeved at a machine shop?

 

[trini]

Take them to a good machine shop. Those guys knows the correct type of rod to use for such jobs. Also would  remove the old bushing and replace with new one and fit them as a unit. CHECK WITH GUYS ON THIS FORUM FOR A GOOD MACHINE SHOP. Small pieces like that  is fairly inexpensive to ship. As a matter of information there are machine shops that will repair any/ most parts and harden them if required : gudgeon pins for example. Ask CINDY MEYERS for a reference. 

[MochetVelo]

Thanks. The female part never had a bushing, but I thought adding one might be an improvement.

 

Philk

[avgwarhawk]

Some Pitman arms have a same type ball of steel that wears over time.  A good shop will build up the steel on the ball.  No reason yours could not have steel added and refurbished.      

[trini]

The picture your show clearly shows a bushing.

[keiser31]

49 minutes ago, trini said:

The picture your show clearly shows a bushing.

I see a shadow inside, but i do not see a bushing.

[JACK M]

Judging from the sizes I would think that its missing a bushing.

Neither piece looks all beat up. Except for the ball.

I think I can see the remains of a groove that probably is a path for grease.

[trini]

keiser31 the shadow looks a different colour to the steel frame.. It has all the resemblance of a spring hanger worn out egg shaped bronze bushing. If I am correct, the bushing is easy to remove by making 2 cuts about 1/8 inches apart straight across , use a fine chisel and knock the piece out. The rest will loosen easily. In tight places grind the hack saw to fit the hole.

[JACK M]

I have to agree with John on the shadow thing, Look at the rest of the shadows in the photo.

[trini]

JACK M, It is quite common to have spiral grooves in bushing to accommodate grease and oil. Even on some distributor shafts and nearly always on leaf spring bushings or pins . an easy way to remove bushings is to do as I said in my above thread.

[JACK M]

Just now, trini said:

JACK M, It is quite common to have spiral grooves in bushing to accommodate grease and oil. Even on some distributor shafts and nearly always on leaf spring bushings or pins . an easy way to remove bushings is to do as I said in my above thread.

 

Agreed, I was thinking it would lube a bushing.

[JACK M]

But I am not a machinist, Just thinking out loud/via keyboard.

 

Let me edit, Are you saying that you see a bushing on the pin or in the housing?

Edited December 12, 2019 by JACK M (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Hmm, now I have my curiosity up.

I just happen to have a micrometer here in my desk and from screen measuring (yes, HOKEY) the housing is significantly larger than the pin.

Almost double.

Edited December 12, 2019 by JACK M (see edit history)

[trini]

JACK M, that is why the bronze bushing was used. You see the manufacturers in those days and even today, to keep  cost down it was cheaper to replace bushings than to replace the steel parts. Unfortunately the previous owner did not do a good job and that is why you have ended up with this problem. There is lots of original material on the pin for the machinist to get the original size. These machinist are able to fill that up and grind it back to specks. The grove you see on the pin is not for grease. Since the gadget is a motor mount there is no reason for grease The constant vibration caused the wear. The machinist will be able to make a bushing , press fit and machine  it to fit the pin. Sine the machinist is at it you might want to consider getting him to make a spare bushing. JUST A THOUGHT .Kanter rubber product might be able to fit the pin with a neoprene bushing which is superior to bronze. The neoprene will yield to side or other movement where as the bronze will grind and wear. This is my penny worth of thought.

[trini]

ANOTHER THOUGHT. Instead of bronze bushing , put liquid rubber and bake it. Make it a modern motor mount.

[Stude17]

I think the answer to your original question has been answered in that it is an acceptable repair to build up the worn area and have it machined back close to the original diameter.  There is also the option of machining a new shaft, however, unless you can do this yourself it may be too costly.  With respect to the loose fitting of the "Spherical" end in the support housing I would suggest that there definitely was a bush there but it is now missing.  It would  be interesting to find out what was there originally ie was it a bronze, steel or rubber bushing.  I don't think that the fitting of the spherical end in the bush would be "tight" but more of a loose sliding fit as there could be a degree of misalignment when it is all bolted down.  The shape of the shaft I suggest would be to help compensate for this misalignment.  If it were mine I would machine a new steel shaft and a suitable bush out of either bronze, steel or neoprene.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Stude17 (see edit history)

[trini]

If I am correct the gadget is definitely a motor mount. Mounts are not made to move around but rather to absorb shocks by the machinations of the engine and rubber or neoprene is the best. That pin has to be tight in the bushing. Metal to metal do not absorb shock. rubber or neoprene will yield to the engine movement. A chunk of rubber vulcanized between two metals basically does this job.

[Pete O]

The wear on the parts may have resulted in both parts being out of round.   Fixing only one might not cure the fit problem.  My approach to this would be to true up the male part on a lathe, and fit an undersized bushing on the female part, reamed to match the new diameter of the trued up male part.

[MochetVelo]

Yes, it is a front engine mount (1924 Peugeot 5HP) . There is no bushing in the female part, though I thought to add one. The male part has a about 3mm wear at the bottom. The female part has less wear, and still looks fairly round. They were definitely a loose fit. I've added weld to the male part, and will try turning it on my lathe.

 

Phil

[Stude17]

MochetVelo I take your point that originally there was no bushing.  Good luck with machining the weld down to the original as while it can be done sometimes hard spots play havoc with the cutting tool.  With respect to fitting a bush I think that would be a good idea.  With respect to the tolerance of the re-machined pin in the new bushing while Trini and Pete O suggest a tight fit I respectfully disagree.  I suspect that the engine is bolted directly to the chassis by two rear mountings and there is no movement.  I would be extremely cautious of making the front mount too "solid" as torsional force from chassis movement  could damage where the front engine mounting pin  is bolted to the engine in my opinion.

 

https://41cef548pyo610dh50468nkk-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Nazar-Speedster-Motor_Mag2.jpg

[Bhigdog]

A 1924 5 HP vehicle. Im guessing pretty much any ball park fix will be just fine and will  last both the cars and Phil,s lifetime. Sometimes it,s best to not over think but to just do it.......bob

Edited December 13, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[MochetVelo]

Here is the final product. I welded onto the male part and turned it on my lathe. It cut pretty easily. I then turned some bronze rod for a press fit bushing with a slip fit on the I.D. As Bob says, this is not a precision part, but the slop has been eliminated.

 

Phil

 

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by MochetVelo (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

Excellent result.  Laying down that much weld without any porosity takes real skill.  Any tips?

[MochetVelo]

It did have some gaps, but they can be filled with a second welding treatment. I used oxy-acetylene, but MIG would be good to fill smaller gaps.

 

Phil

[FLYER15015]

Phil,

You mean a TIG.

When we rebuild model "A's steering arms, we turn down the studs, heat up a big ball bearing, drill a hole in it and TIG weld it on the stud.

Rebuilt hundreds like that over the years.

 

Mike in Colorado

[54vicky]

when I was welding our race car chassis and repair damage a 75-25 gas eliminated any porosity problems for .

[FLYER15015]

You are right Vicky.

75-25 Argon / CO2 is the best mix for mild steel, however Detroit likes straight CO2, 'cause it's faster and cheaper.

Also most folks run too low a voltage setting, or turn the amps (wire speed ) up too high, and the result is a weld that looks like spaghetti laid in the joint.

A good weld looks like calking that you spread in the joint with your finger, but it should not "undercut" the parent metal. That is an invitation to joint failure (stress point).

 

Mike in Colorado

Retired welding engineer from John Deere