Mark Kikta

1922 engine progress

Recommended Posts

Mark, 

    I am really glad to see the effort that you are putting in to pull the pistons and decarbonize.  It is all good insurance for having a successful start up.  It would not hurt to do a light hone.  You have to decide if you want to reinstall the rings or purchase new ones.  Not a big expense hopefully for rings.  I do know if you are going to replace the piston, you are looking at ~$1200 for the set.  For the price of a cylinder assembly gasket (Olsons gaskets has them), you could pull the cylinder assembly out and run it down to a machine shop and have them give the cylinder bores a look over.  He may charge a little, but you could get a professional opinion.  It might be easier to do the work you are doing on the bench top as well.  If you don't do the thermo cleaning, I would definitely at least pull the freeze plugs and clean all the block water jacket out with a coat hanger. I thought about the thermal cleaning after the fact.  I cleaned the block as best as I could, and I am installing a Gano filter in the upper radiator hose just in case to protect my radiator in case anything was missed.   No one knows it is there, and I can pull it if I see any problems as it will catch any loose rust particles and keep them out of my radiator.     Hugh

          494048525_GanoFilter-Upperrad_Hose.thumb.JPG.aa784d9aa579acda2df08b4310fee146.JPG

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hugh,

 

I think it’s a no brainer to get new rings at a minimum. I may as well pull the top part of the block off at this point and have it checked out by a machine shop before I make my final decision on the rings/pistons.  I’ll need a valve job there too.

 

I will definitely use that filter on the coolant since it’s looking like I may need a  re-core on the radiator. 

 

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just ran a Flex Hone through my bores. You can do that with the block in place.

My tired old parts engine, the bores only has .002" taper.

Depending on how far you tend to go on fixing or restoring the car, I'd let that be the criteria for just how much you want to do on the engine.

The engine can be made reliable without a  majot rebuild.

Depending on how the bores and crank measure out can help with a decision. 

I would go with at least new rings and with an oil control ring on the bottom. I think you will find that the bottom ring grove has slots in it, so an oil control ring would work.

 

Also, you can establish piston / bore clearance using a feeler gage and the piston with no rings.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

Morgan,  to get the cage nuts off I bought a large socket and cut it to make 4 longer portions to fit the cage nuts and crank them off.  I put the socket on each cage nut, tapped it on the top with a hammer and then cranked them off.  Some were h!rger than others but it worked pretty well.

 

 

Yeah that's what I did. I still have them in case anybody wants to borrow them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before you order new pistons,  have the bores checked for taper.

  I have found that #6 bore wears the most.

 

Good luck,

John

 

22-6-55 Sport touring

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well today I finally removed the remainder of the  pistons and valve cages.  Last week I took one of my pistons to my machine shop and he inspected the piston and Babbitt and after taking a micrometer to it, said he thought they were in pretty good shape.  If the cylinders are good, he thinks we should re-ring these pistons.  So soon I’ll take the upper block to him for a look.

3D6BCF17-0633-4860-BF55-2EEA7E73D7CB.jpeg

740D3991-71C0-490E-AE34-74945A111CB4.jpeg

EAD49642-9079-4E23-89B2-EF0E6085A3A7.jpeg

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Poor man’s disposable coolant filter is the foot of a pair of pantyhose captured in the upper hose at the clamp. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The oil consumption on the original rings was never very good.  I get ~150 miles per quart touring in the summer with 20w50 and stock piston and rings of unknown age. 

 

A quick clean up hone can’t hurt but as noted pistons aren’t cheap.   

 

By my calcs 50,000 miles of touring would only pay for half a set of pistons based on what I pay for oil. Add boring and I’m even further ahead. 

 

I did the regression formula once for starting with 6 quarts and consuming one then adding a new quart then consuming it and so on.  The oil approaches something like 700 miles average mileage/age. 

 

I have a very strong hard drive magnet in the pan and I buy a case of 12, put six in the sump and when the 6 remaining get consumed, I change it and start over.  Or sooner as always seems the case due to a pending long tour week and not wanting to change on the road. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I plan to only bore and get new pistons if my machinist tells me it needs it. He is of the belief we are building this car to have fun and drive occasionally but not every day.  I like his way of thinking.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I’ve been thinking about how I will lift the upper block out of the car.  I’ve seen a number of pictures of guys doing that with chains etc. which how I normally do that.  Just wondering why I couldn’t just use some of my super heavy duty rope through a couple manifold holes and cage valve holes with my hoist to lift it off the lower block.  Seems easy.  Any issues doing that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In reality, the block isnt that heavy.

 

First, break the block loose from the crankcase and  I think using heavy rope and common sense, the block should lift right off.

 

You do have to arrange the rope so that your lift will be straight up.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark,

 

Don is right - lift it straight up and it comes off easily.  The photo shows how I did mine.  After I cleared the pistons I jacked the hoist up more to clear everything.  I'm guessing the bare block will weigh in at 75 - 100 pounds.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

PA210287.JPG

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh I see you have an open space between your banks of cylinders which I don’t have.  Wish I did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could use a chain bolted to a couple of studs on the top of the block.

Two 5/16" studs or bolts would be strong enought to hold the block safely

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So maybe I could just use manifold bolts on one side and spark plug cover bolts on the other side with  chain.

Edited by Mark Kikta (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the interest of documenting dismantling of my 1922 engine, here are a few pictures of tools I used to get the Valve Cages out of the engine.  I used this 1- 1/2  inch deep well socket purchased from Autozone that I cut/modified to remove the large nuts holding the valve cages in the block. It was a thick enough deep well socket that I used it to remove both exhaust and intake cages even though they are different sizes. 

 

Then after I removed all pistons, I was able to knock out all the valve cages from the bottom.  I tried this 5/8" dia bronze rod on the first two and it worked quite well and took very little coaxing to knock them out. I purchased a 1" wooden dowl to knock out the remainder and that worked well also.  The exhaust cages required more coaxing than the intakes due to the carbon buildup, but in the end nothing was damaged in the process.  I was happy about that.

!cid_f4e83904-89de-4610-a70e-c3a5088fc365@namprd19_prod_outlook.jpg

Cyl # 6 inrake valve cage nut coming loose Jan 19.jpg

!cid_75cc3f4c-2a74-452c-bca9-11008aade818@namprd19_prod_outlook.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only part I have broken so far is this upper square headed bolt on the heat control valve.  The lower bolt was already broken but I broke the top one also trying to get it loose.

Heat control valve.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I received my crank starter receptacle back from the machine shop today.  He took out the sheared off pin in the shaft end that is supposed to engage the starter nut on the front of the crank. If anyone tries to replace this pin themselves, be sure you notice that there is a small pin through the larger one to ensure it doesn't come out. 

Starting pin for crank broken off.jpg

new pin in crank starter recepticle.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yesterday I had a great experience when I traveled to Elkton, Maryland to purchase new rings for my original pistons.  I went to see Dave at Otto Gas Engine Works to have him take a look at my pistons and to fit them with a new set of rings..  Dave is a wealth of knowledge about these old cars and I really enjoyed learning about the old technology and design regarding rings and pistons.  He also has tens of thousands of rings in stock which in itself was fascinating.  Dave specializes in rings for old flywheel engines too.  He has some rather large ones around his place that I found very interesting.  

 

First of all Dave thought my pistons were in great shape and that I should have no issues installing new rings and putting it back together.   He believed that these were original rings as well.  Of course I will still get my local machinist to check out the bores.

 

He showed me that my pistons had a groove cut in them just below the 3rd compression ring which was designed to gather oil for the wrist pins. I had not noticed that.  After Dave took the first compression ring off, he spent some time explaining the design of that old ring.  I was fascinated by his explanation of the 1920's and earlier technology of making eccentric rings vs the concentric rings used today.  It seems they made these rings eccentric in the manufacturing process so that when they actually cut the ring and installed it in the pistons, it would be round and have even pressure against the cylinder walls. That's the best this non-engineer can explain it anyway. 

 

In the case of my rings, because the rings were eccentric they were worn unevenly.  The rings fit in the piston better on the thick portion than at the thin portion.  In fact the difference was about .005 inches.  The thin portion was worn more than the thicker portion.

 

Then Dave (Like some of you) suggested that we put oil control ring in place of that 4th(Bottom) ring. I was going to ask him about that, but he beat me to it.  Below you can see what the oil control ring looks like  I will need to drill 6 holes around the piston in the ring groove before installing this new ring. Dave said that I will have far less smoking, carbon buildup, plug fouling and oil usage by incorporating these oil control rings.

 

We chatted about oil usage in the 1920s and after I shared Brian H's story about burning a quart of oil every 150 miles, he also agreed that yes they burned a lot of oil in those days.  He told me that he has a lot of old oil control rings in his basement from a 1920's company that actually guaranteed that if you installed their rings, you would not burn more than a gallon of oil every 1000 miles. If that is good, imagine what bad was.

 

So I really enjoyed my day visiting and meeting Dave at Otto Gas Engine Works and I would recommend him to anyone needing help with ring issues.  He is a wealth of knowledge and information. I'm excited to continue this process of getting  this engine to run soon.

Piston close up with 1st ring off.jpg

new and old ring comparison.jpg

piston close up.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark,

 

That is great! Isnt it refreshing to talkwith someone who actually knows what he is doing and offers good advise?

 

My '18 originally had the concentric rings, but my later parts engine has the eccentric rings.  (or vice versa - to long ago to remember).

 

I also like the overlap at the ring gap ends of those older rings- neat

That overlap probably helped a lot without an oil control ring. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don,

 

It was very enjoyable.  I could have stayed there all day picking his brain but I know he had work to do.  He buys all of his rings from Hastings and he says that he has a lot of Hastings rings that they do not carry or make any longer. He gets a lot of calls from folks that Hastings has sent to him.

 

What will this country do when people with skills like Dave are no longer with us?  He even custom modifies rings on his lathes when required to custom fit them.

 

Amazing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is great that we have those folks.

 

I have talked with Hastings about getting weird rings. there is a woman there who is a whiz and was really great in putting otrgether what i needed.

it is refreshing to get service liked that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like they are a pretty good company. What Buicks do you have Don?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now