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1922 engine progress


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From the pics it looks like:

 

1925 Hugh and dibarlaw: The water pump floats and the S/G end of the shaft has a bearing secured to the crankcase.

 

1922/1918 Me and Mark Kitka: The water pump is secured to the crankcase and the S/G end of the shaft floats (there is no bearing).

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9 minutes ago, dibarlaw said:

The punch alignment marks on the front of the timing gears are for the engines initial assembly and timing. Once the water pump is removed all bets are off. No way could one be sure to get the alignment back unless they pulled the front cover. That is why the distributer shaft can be unlocked and adjusted. Even if you had the cover off and set all the marks to align you still have to unlock the distributer shaft to re time. I have had my pump out twice and had it retimed within10 minutes according to the shop manual directions.

 

 

I thought the taper pins took care of all that.

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Mark, 

       The generator drive on the rear of the WP shaft is about 1 1/2" long.  You will likely have a very hard time moving this on the shaft while it is on the car.   The front pin (under the big nut on the drive end), holds a collar about 1/2" long.  If you can use emery cloth on the front part of the shaft and some penetrating lube, there is a chance that this shorter collar may move.    You may need to use pipe wrenches.  If you can get the front collar to slide back, and the front bearing all the way back,  like this picture from Larry, that may give you enough room to pull the SG unit.  The impellor I am sure is also frozen to the shaft, so it won't let the shaft slide forward much, but maybe a little.  Maybe it will let all the parts come up together.  

 

     Another option is to heat the SG drive hub to get it to expand so you can rotate it on the WP shaft and move it forward.  These small O2 propane kits are $65, and the small O2 Acetylene kits are $300.  At a minimum, you need the small one for the condition of your car. There are so many times this little torch has done just enough to get things moving after some heat is applied.  I am ready to spring for the $300 kit, and I wish I had done it sooner.  These tools pay for themselves unless you burn the garage down.    Hugh

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I have a couple of the cheaper torches.  I’ll try one of them carefully.  I’m thinking the torch is my only option at this point.  Or I could just cut about a 1/4 inch notch on the top of the gear box and the shaft of the s/g would lift right out.  That will be my last resort.

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I am not entirely sure if the small torch will input enough heat for the size of the SG hub, but it might.  Those O2 bottles don't last a long time.  I was surrounded by red bottles recently trying to get a part hot enough to do some brazing. 

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13 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

 

 

I thought the taper pins took care of all that.

Morgan:

 On the 3 1925 pumps I have worked with and Hugh's which makes 4, it seems that although the pins are spaced the same lengthwise they seem to be indexed at random.  My take is that the components were placed in a fixture and drilled. Our impellors have a set screw hole that was used to secure the impellor to the shaft for drilling and then removed. Also a suspicion that the water pump shaft to distributer S/G coupling taper pin hole was possibly drilled at assembly of the engine unit. (To set the proper clearance of the Oldham coupler ring.) The 3 pumps I compared had this end hole drilled in slightly different locations from the end of the shaft. 1/32" to 1/16" difference.  I had taken great pains to get the taper pin holes located straight, centered and true on the new Stainless shaft. Then I had the problem of the end coupling drilled over 1/16" off center. (I had assumed it would be straight and centered.)

DSCF7325.thumb.JPG.f17b9c55a3ac6d6a8cef799e785d9808.JPGThe coupling on the pump I pulled off of my car to replace with the new shaft looked to be closer to center but was 1/16 difference in location lengthwise. Then my problem of not having enough clearance for the S/G to motor.

On one pump that I used parts from the front half of the shaft was cut off. The coupling end had a pin hole drilled at a decided angle of about 5 degrees to the length of the shaft.

.  

 

Edited by dibarlaw
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I was just thinking that as long as teeth in the water pump shaft gear are replaced correctly relative to the cam shaft gear, and the front taper pin is replaced correctly and not 180 degrees off (new pin inserted fat side to skinny side), and the same for the rear taper pin, then everything will not affect the timing. As for the coupling between the shaft and the Starter/Generator, I could not figure out if there would be a problem aligning it wrong, since it looks like they can be assembled one way or 180 degrees off.

 

The cam gear has 60 teeth and the crank gear has 30 teeth. That is to be expected. The water pump shaft gear has only 20 teeth. I got a headache trying to figure out what would happen to the distributor if the shaft and S/G coupling were assembled 180 degrees off from how it was dissasembled. And I don't think I'm smart enough to figure it out.

.

.

Edited by Morgan Wright (see edit history)
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I purchased a TDC whistle on Ebay ($12) and a Ford spark plug adapter from Mac's ($7.50).  These work great for finding TDC #1.  Then I rolled the hand crank to align 0 on the timing mark.   I drilled a dot on the back side of the fiber timing gear.  As long as I always set the motor up this way, and the rotor is always pointing to the front and on #1 wire in the cap, and I match my back side dot with a dot on the back side of the water pump gear, I should not need to retime the engine if I remove the water pump.  

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Here's what I figure. The water pump shaft spins 3 times faster than the cam shaft (20 teeth to 60 teeth). That's good for the water pump, it needs the RPM to pump water. And it's good for the generator to make voltage. Some sort of reducing gear in the distributor shaft slows it down to the same RPM as the cam shaft. If you replace the coupler 180 degrees off, the spark goes to the cylinder during the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke. That can't be good.

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Hugh..... you are obsessing again......You will find out that unless you have an inspection camera to focus on the spot that you could not possibly be able to align to the spot since the bearing and housing is in the way as you assemble the pump to the engine. And after all this you still would need to reset the rotor.

 Ask me how do I know.....

My high tech device to check for TDC is a 10"long 1/4" wood dowel rod. As I hand crank over the engine I watch the stick rise up out of the spark plug hole to stop at TDC. Then the feeler gage to check for closed valves on #1. Bump the crank over until I see the flywheel timing mark in the window.  I have retimed the engine about 5 times since I have owned the car. No big deal. As I said I can have it timed in 10 minutes. If I had someone to watch the timing mark I could probably do it in 5 minutes.

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My even more high tech device for finding TDC is look at the valves of the sister cylinder (#6 if you are finding #1) and crank the engine until the exhaust valve is closed and before the intake valve is open. The time when they are both closed is really short almost instantaneous.

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All,

The timing mark on the water pump shaft gear is useless in the situation that Larry and Hugh is in.  Since the distributor is going to be set so that the new shaft can be drilled and pinned for the coupling, the timing mark on that pump shaft gear is irrelevant.  Here is a photo of the new coupling that I made for my shaft.  I drilled and tapped the set screw hole before heat treating the coupling.  I will use that set screw to hold the coupling fast to the shaft so that the tapered pin hole can be drilled and reamed.  The tapered pin in the photo is a #4.  As you guys have found out, there is a lot more to this process than meets the eye.  As I have told Larry, I have literally gone to sleep at night thinking about how this is going to be done so that everything comes out perfect in the end.  I do not intend to hijack this thread, but, what I am going to have to do is very relevant to what you guys are doing here.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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I just took these. Notice a much longer shaft between water pump and S/G than the 1925 cars have, and no bearing. The collar slides back, looks like you just need to use a file or emery to smooth off the shaft there so it slides.

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The reason for the whistle is that I don't want to pull any covers to know when #1 is in the compression stroke.  Once I hear the whistle, all I need to do is rotate to the 0 mark.   I see what you are saying about not being able to see the gears given the size of the front water pump bearing.  If I put a mark on the water pump shaft on the top, and I always put the shaft in with that mark on top (accounting for the gear angle during installation), and my rotor is always pointing forward, then it should not be necessary to retime the engine.  I am mainly hoping that with a good rebuilt water pump I don't need to go into this anyway.    Hugh

     

 

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Hugh:

 Not saying that it could not be done. To do your procedure you would have to make sure the large end of the taper pin holes on the shaft are indexed pointing up. That is on both ends for the front bearing retainer and the rear coupler. If you had to turn the shaft the least little bit for alignment prior to driving in the pins your timing target will be off. Then the distributer rotor will still need to be adjusted. The Oldham ring plate, when you install, would have to be delicately and precisely placed matching the driving tabs to the slot and to the rear coupler. A slight jiggle to match up the coupler and guess what.... yep.... another loosening of that distributer shaft again. I could have retimed my engine 3 times in the time I took to type this!

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You're welcome. Sorry everything is so dirty, I plan to remove the starter and have it rebuilt with new brushes, etc.

 

I also plan to take the distributor cap in to a company that can use it as a mold to make reproduction ones, I understand you can't get them anywhere and this cap is 80 years old and in perfect shape, nobody can find them and nobody makes reproductions. My spare engine doesn't have one. Does yours?

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I may have an advantage in that I have had 4 pumps to compare. Most of you only have what was on your car. Hugh's documentation of his and the 3 I have had access to.

 On the 3 full length shafts NONE of the holes match or align. All seem to be indexed at random. The new shaft I made I tried to copy the one I had in hand. Then locate the Woodruff keyway to that layout. When I pulled my old pump to replace with the new one I then tore it down to inspect. Nothing matched again. The keyway for the timing gear was about 150 degrees from my copied example. The taper pin holes were indexed opposite of what I had before. (big end/small end)

 Keep in mind that the armature of the S/G has to "Motor" before the starter gear is engaged. As long as the Oldham coupler is engaged to the water pump shaft it holds the drive gear to the distributer in check and in synchronization. There is an overrunning clutch ahead of the large spiral drive gear. This is so that the synchronization is not disturbed while "Motoring". But if the pump coupling is pulled back and the switch is turned on the motoring will turn the gear and the rotor shaft. That is how I had to align the Oldham ring to the coupler by bumping the switch. Thin bladed screwdrivers can also work. But space to work is at a premium and by this time my back and shoulder was letting me know. I had already timed the ignition when I had to carefully pull the Oldham ring out to resurface. After I had done so I carefully tried to reinstall without disturbing anything. Just that little jiggle was enough to have things off again. RETIME!

 

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The threaded post Delco Distributor Caps were used through the end of the 1922 model year on Buicks.  The single piece caps like Larry and Hugh have on their engines are available as I understand and quite reasonably priced I might add.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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15 minutes ago, Terry Wiegand said:

The threaded post Delco Distributor Caps were used through the end of the 1922 model year on Buicks.  The single piece caps like Larry and Hugh have on their engines are available as I understand and quite reasonably priced I might add.

 

Yeah, and I'd like to have the 1918-1922 caps added to the list of available ones. I told the guy I'd donate my cap to the factory if I get 3 new ones. I don't want to use the old one, it might be brittle and if it breaks I got nothing.

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36 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said:

On my original '18 shaft all there is are the original Buick holes and key. None line up, neither key nor various holes. They seem arbitrarily located. Strange for a production item.

 

 

Part 36130, water pump shaft, in the picture price list of parts book, has no holes drilled in it.

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Morgan I do have a distributor cap that each terminal has to screw in to. But the Distributor cap does not fit on the distributor like it should. At least I don't think It does.  I only have one spring attaching clip however, the other one is broken.

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Mark,   The earlier caps,  I think pre 1922  had a twist ( turn ) on cap.  Where as the 1924 6 cylinder and later caps had the long clips to hold the caps  on.  From the pic of yours,  it appears to be a short clip,  so I,m guessing 1923 may have been different to the earlier and later distributors.  Possibly, the later cap can be addapted to fit.

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Edited by ROD W (see edit history)
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The part number for my distributor cap is D-11746 same for E, H and K (1918 to 1920), and probably others.

 

That's from my picture price books. Do you have the part number for 1922? Does anybody have the picture price book for 1922 or other years to show the span of what gets the D-11746?

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The distributor caps for the 1916 thru 1920 6-Cylinder inclusive were the same.  The 1921 and 1922 6-Cylinder caps were the same and 1922 was the last year for the threaded post caps.  Beginning with the 1923 models Buick went to a single piece cap.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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Well I got the starter-gen out today.After a lot of tapping left and tapping right.  I put a handle on it and was able to wiggle it out.  Thanks to everyone for all the photos and help.  That gave me the confidence to get it out without breaking anything.

 

Even the water pump impeller isn’t that bad.  I will clean it up, treat the rust and put it back together.

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