Mark Kikta

1922 engine progress

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Well today was a big day in this household.  Not only was I finally able to get the tappets out of the engine with a lot of coaxing using a wooden stick and hammer, I finally got the motor unfrozen.

 

I loosened all connecting rod caps and was able to move the engine left and right pretty easy with this flywheel tool. After switching side about 5-6 times the engine finally turned 360 degrees.  I put some super slick engine build oil on the end caps and bolted them back down.  Now it turns 360 degrees with no problem. 

 

This is is an exiting day😁

 

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Well done!

 

Nothing snapped off just good hard work and soaking. 

 

What were your total days of soaking Vs. how many hours of actual wrenching?

 

Do you believe the lifters were a factor?  People will want to know when they read this 5 years from now 😀.

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Thanks Brian,

Soaked, soaked and soaked the cylinders for 2 1/2 months with a rotating combination of PB blaster, Marvel Mystery oil and ATF.   Loosened one connecting rod and was able to move #1 piston about 1/2 inch using wooden dowl with relatively light impacts with a hammer. That was at about 2 months since I started soaking.

 

I do believe the tappets could have contributed since some were very difficult to move/ remove.  I soaked them with PB Blaster about as long as I soaked the pistons.

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Mark, Your tappets look like the axle gears and bearings from my Model F that I am working on.  Just got it apart this week.

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3 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

I guess 50-60 years of old grease/oil look the same wherever you look.

 

Or older.

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What is "taffy"?

1 hour ago, Morgan Wright said:

I just drained a quart of taffy out of my transmission.

Oh, toffee?

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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Salt water taffy. Not the delicious kind.

 

I replaced it with kerosene, spun the shaft and shifted through all the gears for a few minutes, drained it, filled it again with kerosene, worked the gears again, a total of 4 times. Then filled it with motor oil and spun the gears, drained it. Now to install the transmission in the car and fill with hypoid gear oil for non-synchronized manual tranny.

 

Just for fun I think I'll upload the taffy video on youtube for you:

 

https://youtu.be/Q9KK6J8ljRo

 

Edited by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

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The E.P. Sulphur based additives in hypoid GL-5 may be detrimental to the health of the bronze bushings in your transmission,  AND DIFFERENTIAL. What I am not clear on, is whether this corrosion process can occur in the total absence of water, (condensation), in the oil, and how long before the damage sets in. Maybe frequent transmission and differential oil changes prevent this ?     -    Carl 

Edited by C Carl
Capitalized DIFFERENTIAL (see edit history)
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When I try to turn the engine using the crank, it feels like its slipping off of some fitting or socket.  I assume my engine looks something like this second photo inside that cover on front of the crankshaft. Anyone else had similar experience ?

 

I assume I can just undo those two front bolts and support with a block of wood and a jack to get at it?

front apron view closeup.jpg

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On 1/23/2019 at 9:45 AM, C Carl said:

What I am not clear on, is whether this corrosion process can occur in the total absence of water, (condensation), in the oil, and how long before the damage sets in. Maybe frequent transmission and differential oil changes prevent this ?

I think it is a chemical attack rather than a corrosion attack. I imagine it is like oxidation (=corrosion) but by sulphur-containing chemicals. After all, Oxygen is in row 16 (atomic weight 16) and Sulphur (atomic weight 32) is also in row 16 immediately below Oxygen. They behave similarly in many ways, as both are 2- charges.

 

Maybe it is better to NOT change the oil coz the sulphur EP additives will be gradually used up doing their job! But then not changing the oil means you don't have that EP protection.

 

The best idea is to use an oil whose EP additives have a Copper Strip Corrosion Test result of 1a (or 1b at a pinch).

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, Mark Kikta said:

it feels like its slipping off of some fitting or socket.

Maybe it is. With that spring loaded Doofa on the shaft, I imagine you have to push that in with the crank handle to engage the crank drive.

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The nut on the front of the crank has the 3 ears. They may have become deformed like the one on my parts engine. Also the pin on the shaft engaging it may be deformed too.

I was able to repair mine by using a hydraulic press to get the "hook" back into place.

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I push in as hard as I can but it is slowly slipping as I try to turn.  

 

Looks like that nut can be taken off easily enough also so I can see what the issue really is. 

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Mark,

If I was a betting person, I would put money on the fact that the crank nut has stripped threads.  The end of the crankshaft is threaded to accept this nut.  If your crank handle turns 'slowly' as you say, then I think you have found the problem.  A good tool and die shop can make the nut for you, but, the crankshaft will be another issue after it is removed from the crankcase.  If my assessment is correct, I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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Removing the nut shoul be easy - getting to it is another story.

Since it is always in an oil environment, there should be no rusting issues.

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Well if the crankshaft has an issue with that nut,  I’ll have the only 1922 without a crank😟 I guess

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On 1/22/2019 at 3:45 PM, C Carl said:

The E.P. Sulphur based additives in hypoid GL-5 may be detrimental to the health of the bronze bushings in your transmission, and differential. What I am not clear on, is whether this corrosion process can occur in the total absence of water, (condensation), in the oil, and how long before the damage sets in. Maybe frequent transmission and differential oil changes prevent this ?     -    Carl 

 

 

OK, I'll 86 the hypoid. I'll use it in the rear end.

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Hi Morgan. Hypoid gear oil is overkill for these ancient rear ends. Hypoid gears had not yet been invented (Gleason, perhaps about 1925). Hypoid is a hybrid between SKEW spiral bevel gears (skew because pinion center line is offset from crown center line), and worm gears. It is the SLIDING component of the gear load (spiral bevel gears have no sliding loads), which requires E.P. 

 

I am curious about the corrosive function of the Sulphur based E.P. additives. Typical erosion I have seen on bronze worm drives in Stutz appear to my inexperienced eyes as having lived in an acidic environment. The acid acting as an electrolyte, then must have come from a reaction including water, and the Sulphur compounds. 

 

18 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

I think it is a chemical attack rather than a corrosion attack. I imagine it is like oxidation (=corrosion) but by sulphur-containing chemicals. After all, Oxygen is in row 16 (atomic weight 16) and Sulphur (atomic weight 32) is also in row 16 immediately below Oxygen. They behave similarly in many ways, as both are 2- charges.

 

Maybe it is better to NOT change the oil coz the sulphur EP additives will be gradually used up doing their job! But then not changing the oil means you don't have that EP protection.

 

The best idea is to use an oil whose EP additives have a Copper Strip Corrosion Test result of 1a (or 1b at a pinch).

 

But bronze is highly resistant to oxidation. I do think the corrosion requires an electrolyte. However, just because I THINK something, doesn't mean that it is right  🤔. Again, if we assume depletion of E.P. additives takes place, it will not be of any consequence to any spiral bevel gearset.

 

It is a very good idea to use an extra heavy single viscosity gear oil in the rear end. Very little, to no leaking whatsoever. If you are not regularly driving you old car in below freezing temperatures, the extra load is inconsequential.

 

I have edited my previous response to capitalise "AND DIFFERENTIAL", thank you.     -    Carl 

Edited by C Carl (see edit history)

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