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1922 engine progress


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That water pump shaft looks pretty bad.

Since there is an additional hole in the impeller hub, It looks as if the shaft may have been replaced once already.

Getting the impeller off the shaft can be a real challenge. I had to machin e the shaft out of the impeller of my parts engine

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Mark :

Congratulations! Getting things apart without breaking them is half the battle. The impellor does look to be quite useable. It looks to be  better than the one I got out of my spate engine. Notice the tapped hole on the impellor. This was to lock the unit fast to the shaft while drilling for the taper pin holes. All 3 of the W/P shafts I have a mark left from the set screw when I removed the impellors. I have done 3 without breaking any! First, I used my Dremel tool and small grinding stone to smooth out the split end of the taper pin so I could get a good center to punch. I leveled and centered to my punch mark in the drill press vice with V-blocks. Quite awkward with the housing and front bearing still in the way. I was able to drill about half way through the pin. Then use a punch to remove the rest. Having a lathe helped in that I was able to mount the shaft in the chuck and file the shaft area before and after the impellor. To get the impellor down that shaft it was quite a trick. Our 1925 shafts are to be .749 before the impellor to rear on the coupler side. At the impellor and to the front bearing the shaft is to be .755. So of course the impellor has to be removed to the coupler end allowing the housing and such to be removed.

 I used a split bearing puller face to mount on my bench vice under the smaller diameter hub. These earlier pumps look to be opposite of how our 1925s are set up so your pressure point will be the hub face on the large flange site. I would make a split collar to be able to put the force at the center of the hub. Stay away from the fragile flange and vanes. I soaked it in penetrating oil for a week and still had to use heat and a brass cap with a heavy hammer to drive the shaft through the impellor. Now to get a new shaft and bearings made.

 I need to come down for a visit. We should only be a few hours apart. 

DSCF7369.thumb.JPG.acf2a96667acc5b8f2a08833a4a8556c.JPG    My pump that I just replaced. To remove the impellor has to move to the right in the photo. The impellor looks better than the other 2 pumps I have. Play in the bearings was over .040!

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Mark,

 

If you have the pump apart like that, I would definitely replace the shaft with a stainless steel shaft and put lip seals instead of the packing.  If you need some information on the lip seals, I can send it to you because I have done that and so has Larry DiBarry.  My truck no longer leaks with the SS shaft & lip seals.  One note is if you put the lip seals in, use the best ones that you can buy.  They are over $30/seal but IMO well worth it.  It would be a one time job.  They are high temp resistant and chemically impervious.  

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Larry,

please send the lip seal information.  I am considering just leaving this impeller on the shaft and trying it for now, but I may change my mind later.   I power wire brushed it and treated it with phosphoric acid  to kill the rust. It cleaned up well. I then painted it with a coat of Rustoleum.  I had a lot of success with phosphoric acid treatment on my 1939 chevy when I restored it in 1979.  I have had no rust returning wherever I used this treatment before.

Water pump treated with Phosphoric acid (Ospho).jpg

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You might want to check the diameter of the shaft at various points along its length.  It may be that meticulously duplicating the original is not the best plan, as optimal compatibility with bushings, seals, etc. may indicate a couple of thousandths difference here or there would be preferable.  IOW, check all the mating components before you have the shaft made.  If any of them are worn or egged out (as they quite likely are), make sure you have a plan for dealing with them before you spec and commission the shaft, and make sure all the components will work together.  You have the advantage of better materials and closer tolerances than OEM.  As such, it makes sense to look at this as an assembly rather than a bunch of isolated parts to be replaced piecemeal.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I finally got time and weather to pressure clean my upper block. I used 409 and this pressure washer to clean all portions including the water jacket. I feel like it all got very clean.  I used some light oil to rub the cylinder walls to keep them from rusting.

Block pressure washing.jpg

Block exhaust ports cleaned.jpg

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Mark,

I have gotta give you a bushel basket-full of attaboys for leaving the crankcase in the frame.  I'm just thinking that it is going to be a real challenge getting everything back together with the block in place.  I have had all of that laying on my back looking up at the bottom of things that I want.  Maybe I should ask - did you pull the crankcase out of the frame to paint it?

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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Terry,

 

I covered the crank and cam shafts with rags and tape when painting and wire brushing.  My hope is now I can rotate the crank to get the journals at the 12 o'clock position to work at polishing them a bit one at a time from above.  Now I shouldn't get a bunch of other dirt back on them from cleaning the block, that's done. Cleaning up the cam lobes might be more of a challenge. But once I get the pistons back in and oil pan back on, I'm hoping to roll this baby onto my 2 post lift to work the under car stuff. 

My problem is getting the car on the lift properly.  I could use my 4 post lift and roll it on the ramps, but I like the freedom of working under the two post lift better. I have to load the lift with the engine in the front.  The issue is how to push the car around from the rear.  I use my small tractor to push/pull using the front bumper, but I don't have that luxury in the rear.  I guess I'm going to have to make something.

!cid_ebf03d0c-98f5-4cb8-88c5-5ee94d97d1c0@namprd19_prod_outlook.jpg

My buick rear view.jpg

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So today I started cleaning the inside of the lower block.  I decided to spray the inside with WD-40, let it soak for 20-25 minutes and then sprayed with brake clean.  The grease just ran off in a sheet with little to no brushing. As I began cleaning I realized that there was an oil gutter along the inside under the camshaft.  There appears to be drain holes in these gutters draining onto the top of the main bearings. I had not realized that previously.   I need to ensure these holes are clean for sure.

Lower block inside before  cleaning.jpg

lower block inside after cleaning.jpg

Lower block inside oil gutter.jpg

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Yesterday my new tools arrived to finish checking out my pistons and cylinder walls. The most wear we found on the piston skirts was .003 in.  We measured the cylinders next in both axis and at three levels in each cylinder.  The most wear we found was about .0015 in perpendicular to the crank.  So my machinist thinks that the readings are great and that we should be good to go as they are except we need to hone them and get rid of the small ridge in each cylinder.   A couple of cylinders are about .003 in out of round at the top but he says we aren't going to worry about that. So next I'll take the block to him and let him figure out how to get rid of the ridge.

New tools to check buick cylinders.jpg

New tools to check out pistons and cylinders.jpg

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well I finally got my radiator back from being re-cored.  The radiator shop even took some pictures for me while they were re-working the radiator.  I have it all boxed up and holes plugged/covered waiting for me to finish the engine.  They also repaired my oil pan leaks and gave me a protective spray to coat the inside of the oil pan like they normally do for high end cars and trucks. 

!cid_3a144295-4566-45d3-a47f-5d573c8352f3@namprd19_prod_outlook.jpg

!cid_e33ab427-fa00-48f7-b352-05d4c45e5c72@namprd19_prod_outlook.jpg

!cid_3de75afe-a213-4f7d-bbd6-70db71325c4b@namprd19_prod_outlook.jpg

radiator recore almost completed 19 march 2019.jpg

!cid_2c6254b1-b821-4f0c-b2b5-ee881554db66@namprd19_prod_outlook.jpg

!cid_7b57f7d7-982a-43ef-862f-8a38215e35c5@namprd19_prod_outlook.jpg

Oil pan interior sprayed.jpg

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Mark,

The radiator really looks nice.  My Dad used to coat the inside of the main cases on his John Deere Tractor restorations with a paint product called Glyptal.  Would what you used here be the same thing?  The color sure looks very similar.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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  • 1 month later...

Well, since my machinist says he has completed reworking the valves and cages and should have the block honed for me and ridges removed later this week, I thought I should get to work getting ready for it. So I removed all of the rings on the pistons and drilled the holes in the bottom ring groves (6 - 1/8 in holes in each). Hopefully these holes in combination with the oil control rings I will be installing will provide better oil control.   

 

So first I marked where I wanted to drill the six holes on each piston. After I drilled the holes, I filed the backs of the holes to remove loose pieces hanging on and blew the pistons out well. Now I can clean the pistons up better and really clean the ring grooves out for the new rings to fit properly. As soon as I get the block back, I can start checking the ring gaps.

 

pistons 2.jpg

pistons 4.jpg

pistons 6.jpg

pistons 5.jpg

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It was an exciting day as I picked up my valve cages from the machinist today.  It was a great feeling to finally be turning the corner on disassembly vs assembly on my engine clean/rebuild.  They look great all cleaned up and all re-ground with new oil felts on the stems.  My machinist said the springs were all re-usable and the guides and stems were not worn badly. Based on the condition of the valves/cages, he also said the engine likely had two cylinders that were not firing which is likely the reason the car was parked years ago.  I had to replace one exhaust valve that was too burned to regrind. I should get my block back next week after it spends a couple days in the cleaning tank. 

Valve cages done3.jpg

Valve cages done5.jpg

Valve cages done6.jpg

Valve cages done8.jpg

Valve cages done10.jpg

Valve cages done12.jpg

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Mark, 

    A question for your machinist or others.  Today we use hardened seats on valves due to the lack of lead in the fuel.  I do not even know if replacement valves are available for your car from Egge, and if they have them, would they be in stainless which is a little harder.  Is that something that would make the valves last longer?  It looks like you can't install a hardened seat with the cage valves.  Regarding valve springs, very inferior metallurgy in the day.   My car had 2 different size springs when the head was broken down.  All 12 valve springs are supposed to be the same.   I am sure that the replacements were all that were available at the time so a shorter or longer spring was better than a broken one.   The old springs are very susceptible to breakage and I would be changing them out if I had my engine in the state that yours is in.   

Hugh

IMG_6171.thumb.JPG.1764ec4f5cb5811ba734e210d2c52bc6.JPG

 

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Hugh,

Even though your engine is a few years newer than my 1916, you're still dealing with a low speed, low compression set-up.  The spring pressures in the valve open state on my engine is 48 - 52 pounds.  I'd be willing to say that your valve springs are not a whole lot different than that.  There really is quite a bit of engineering that goes into a valve spring - the wire diameter, the number of coils, free length, compressed length, heat treatment requirements.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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I finally got my pistons all cleaned up and ready for new rings.  My cylinder block should be back today so now as soon as I can get the rings gapped, I'll put them on and insert these pistons into the cylinders.  Even though I took plenty of pictures before taking the pistons out, so that I knew how to install them when this time came along, it was re-assuring to see an arrow cast into the inside of the pistons after cleaning them up, showing which way was forward.  To clean them I used a gallon can of carb cleaner and soaked each piston in that for 2 hours. The carb cleaner really loosened the carbon well in the grooves. After that I sprayed it well inside and out with brake clean, scrubbed the outside with scotchbrite, and cleaned the grooves with the groove cleaner.  I followed that up by scrubbing the outside and inside with brushes, spraying it all again with brake clean and blowing it out good with compressed air.  I am vey pleased with the results.

Number 3 cylinder piston before cleaning.jpg

cleaning ring groves with groove cleaner.jpg

Piston cleaned and grooves cleaned also, ready for rings.jpg

inside of cleaned piston.jpg

piston cleaned showing forward arrow inside.jpg

pistons cleaned and ready for rings2.jpg

pistons cleaned and bagged waiting for rings.jpg

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Morgan,

 

I got my rings from :

 

 OTTO Gas Engine Works, 2167 Blue Ball Rd, Elkton, MD  21921-3330

  Ph: 410-398-7340   The owner Dave is very nice and really knows the old stuff

He has lots of old Hasting rings.  I think he said he has some 30,000 sets of rings and what he might not have, he can make.

 

I posted some information on my rings and my experience at Otto Gas engine works on page 4 of this thread also.

 

Mark

 

 

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