Mark Kikta

1922 engine progress

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Mark, 

    If your starting nut is bad, they did span a long time so a spare should not be that difficult to find

D-E-H-K-21-24 6 cyl, 25-26 Master, 27 120-128"    Hugh

 

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19 minutes ago, C Carl said:

I do think the corrosion requires an electrolyte. However, just because I THINK something, doesn't mean that it is right

Yep, you are right. It does not require an electrolyte. :(

 

There are two types of sulphur used in EP additives, active and inactive. Active sulphur reacts chemically with copper in the presence of heat to form copper sulphide. In extreme pressure situations, copper disulphide can be formed. Both copper sulphide and copper disulphide are very hard crystalline forms and can abrade soft machine surfaces.

 

"Sulfur in its active state readily reacts with metal surfaces to form a ductile metal soap that is sacrificial and allows opposing surfaces to contact one another with minimal damage. Active sulfur is chemically aggressive and with yellow metals being softer than steel, they can begin to pit and form spalls due to this chemical attack."  Like most chemical reactions, it is faster with increasing temperature - the rate doubles for every 10 oC increase in temperature.

 

Inactive sulphur is used in some EP additives. It is "less likely to bond to surfaces and react chemically."

 

Hence, pay attention to the Copper Strip Corrosion Test ASTM D130. You want a 1a result.

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Sometimes when to try to crank, push in as hard as you can and the crank will spin very slowly as you push and then slips off of something and towards you no matter how hard you push.  Sometimes you can fiddle with it and the crank will catch. It must be that nut.   

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Thanks, Spinney'. That just goes to show the fallacy of just THINKING one is right. I'm sure there must be a modern heavy synthetic gear oil  which is kind to yellow metal. I have to go to O' Reilly's right now anyway. I will report back.  -   CC 

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On the cranking. It sounds as if everythin is OK if the crank goes in as you start to crank. However if it is forced back out as you continue, that says that those nut "ears are damaged.

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After I got home from my business trip to Sarasota, fl.  I took my stuck lifters out of the paint can that I had them soaking in. So far I have soaked them in PB blaster for about two weeks and now acetone and atf in a sealed paint can for two weeks.  This time I was able to easily punch the inner roller piece out using a socket and hammer while holding it in my hand. What a relief. They are all now cleaned up, working and covered with oil.  I’m convinced that this engine was frozen up at least partially due to these frozen lifters,  I’m so happy that nothing was broken.

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Next I dived into the crank receptacle to see why the crank has always just sliped off when I try to crank the engine or just turn slow and do nothing. 

After jacking the front of the engine a bit, I removed the timing gear cover.  To my surprise the nut on the end of the crankshaft looked Ok.  When I looked inside the cover,  I could see that the pin used to engage the crankshaft nut had been bent off and broken off inside the cover.  It appears as someone must have put some serious pressure on the crank trying to unfreeze this engine before I got it.  

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Mark, 

    I would seriously consider pulling all the pistons out, even if you do not plan to replace the rings, and then you can clean out the ring grooves.  Bearings may still be good, and skipping a babbit job saves a ton of money if they still measure good.  I think this car has plain sat too long.   When I pulled out my pistons, 2 cylinders had compression rings in place of the oil control rings.  I was surprised not to see a lot of wear, but yikes.  The person also did not put the lifter on the aligning bolt and that messed up one of the cam lobes and one of the rollers on the lifter.    Hugh

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

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Thanks Hugh,  I was hoping that all my soaking might have freed up those rings a bit.

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You can get the "crank rod" out by knocking the front pin out. That shaft will then slide out so you can replace the sheared off pin. That pin on my parts engine is bent and will be re-placed.

 

On my '18 all 4 rings are "compression" - no oil control ring. I dont know if yours is the same. My parts book says that they were all the same.

I go along with Hubert. Pull the pistons. You have already done most of the work. And at this point piston removal and replacement is easy

 .Chances are really good that if you dont replace the rings, you'll  have an oil burner / smoker / plug fouler. The fact that the engine was stuck tells me that the rings are probably stuck too.

You'd be really pissed if you reassemble the engine only to find you have oil use issues.

 

Strangely, on my parts engine pistons, the bottom ring grove has slots at the bottom of the grove even though is is a plain ring. You can probably get an oil control ring that could go in the slot.

My "driver" '18 has modern pistons and I havnt fouled a plug since i rebored it about 50 years ago.

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You and Hugh are probably correct.  Maybe I should just keep going while I have most of the work done.  You can’t leave the transmission in the car correct?  You need to pull the engine and trans as one unit?

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Mark,

It will probably be easier to drop the transmission and then pull the engine.  That is what I am doing.  Now, when things go back together, it might be easier to slip things back in all together.  I am fixing to find the answer to that later this Summer.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

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The '22 doesn't have removable jugs? Because on my '18, when I take the jugs off the pistons are right there. I did that with my spare engine and sold the head with jugs to Tom Black. Now I have these pistons sticking up.

 

Or is yours a 4 cylinder? Somewhere around '22 or thereabouts, they made the 6 head removable too, I guess the cylinders became part of the crankcase then.

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Is there any reason you can't just leave the engine in the car and pop the jughead off? The pistons are right there.

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No I guess not but then getting them back in would be a trick.  

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You dont have to pull anything. The pistons will come out the bottom right now. All you have to do is remove the con rod cap (watch those shims) rotate the crankshaft so the throw is out of the way and pull the piston down. It will come right out past the crank with no trouble at all.

You can also get the piston back in without a ring compressor. There is a taper at the bottom of the bore. Stick the piston in th bore, wiggle it a little as you push up. The rings will compress by themselves. If you do have trouble, you have plenty of room to use a ring compressor.

I have done this several times for various crazy reasons.

It really is very easy.

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That’s great to know.  That will make it easier than pulling the motor out of the car for now.  I will definitely pull these pistons and check them out. Thanks a lot Don.

Edited by Mark Kikta (see edit history)
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But if you pull the jugs out you can get the valve cages out a lot easier. I pulled mine out from the top and it was a bitch, and I ruined some of the springs. If I had to do it again I'd drive the cages out from the bottom.

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I’ll keep soaking them and punch them out from the bottom after I pull the piston out.  Good idea.

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The bottom of the cylinders have a generous machined taper to aid installing the pistons from below, and as Don mentions they can come out with the crank in place by rotating the crank to the correct position.  Note the rod offset and the cast numbers on the side of each rod and which way that cast number faces. The cast numbers/offset face each other on each pair of cylinders or at least they do in 1923. 

 

Then you can access the the cages from below with a long hard wood dowel and drive them out. 

 

A word on stuck cages.  An old timer once showed me that a brisk smack from above in the downward direction with a hardened socket the same size as the removed valve spring on the top of the cage can break the locking Carbon at the bottom of the cage bore.  Keeping the valves from dropping into the chamber can be done with a wire through the keeper slot or tape the keeper in place or fill the combustion chamber with the piston up with a lenth of rope stuffed in there. Don’t go crazy just a good rap, nothing that might crack a cage. 

Edited by Brian_Heil (see edit history)
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