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1922 engine progress


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The '22 doesn't have removable jugs? Because on my '18, when I take the jugs off the pistons are right there. I did that with my spare engine and sold the head with jugs to Tom Black. Now I have these pistons sticking up.

 

Or is yours a 4 cylinder? Somewhere around '22 or thereabouts, they made the 6 head removable too, I guess the cylinders became part of the crankcase then.

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You dont have to pull anything. The pistons will come out the bottom right now. All you have to do is remove the con rod cap (watch those shims) rotate the crankshaft so the throw is out of the way and pull the piston down. It will come right out past the crank with no trouble at all.

You can also get the piston back in without a ring compressor. There is a taper at the bottom of the bore. Stick the piston in th bore, wiggle it a little as you push up. The rings will compress by themselves. If you do have trouble, you have plenty of room to use a ring compressor.

I have done this several times for various crazy reasons.

It really is very easy.

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But if you pull the jugs out you can get the valve cages out a lot easier. I pulled mine out from the top and it was a bitch, and I ruined some of the springs. If I had to do it again I'd drive the cages out from the bottom.

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The bottom of the cylinders have a generous machined taper to aid installing the pistons from below, and as Don mentions they can come out with the crank in place by rotating the crank to the correct position.  Note the rod offset and the cast numbers on the side of each rod and which way that cast number faces. The cast numbers/offset face each other on each pair of cylinders or at least they do in 1923. 

 

Then you can access the the cages from below with a long hard wood dowel and drive them out. 

 

A word on stuck cages.  An old timer once showed me that a brisk smack from above in the downward direction with a hardened socket the same size as the removed valve spring on the top of the cage can break the locking Carbon at the bottom of the cage bore.  Keeping the valves from dropping into the chamber can be done with a wire through the keeper slot or tape the keeper in place or fill the combustion chamber with the piston up with a lenth of rope stuffed in there. Don’t go crazy just a good rap, nothing that might crack a cage. 

Edited by Brian_Heil (see edit history)
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The valves can't drop into the cylinder. The combustion chamber above the cylinders is somewhat wider than the cylinder bores and the valves are slightly offset so a little of each valve overhangs the edge of the cylinder so it can't drop in.

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Edited by Morgan Wright (see edit history)
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I will probably pull a couple of pistons down that way myself, the compression is a little low in 2 or 3 cylinders. I have 60 in one, mid 50s in another and upper 40s in another. 3 of the cylinders below 40 which I think is not good enough. Even if the engine starts it may be rough. The lowest one is around 32, so I should drop the pan and get on that as soon as the snow melts.

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7 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

Your snow probably doesn’t melt until April?

 

This is what I'm dealing with and winter's only half over. The plow is stuck by the way. It's a 4x4 Ford with 31 inch mud tires and 500 pounds of weight in the back.......stuck!

 

But this happens every winter.

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Edited by Morgan Wright (see edit history)
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19 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

The valves can't drop into the cylinder. The combustion chamber above the cylinders is somewhat wider than the cylinder bores and the valves are slightly offset so a little of each valve overhangs the edge of the cylinder so it can't drop in.

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I stand corrected and agree.

 

I dug out my spare 1923 cylinder jug this afternoon and looked down the valve cage bores and there is a cast feature in the combustion chamber to stop the valves from dropping into the combustion chamber.  Easy to see on the exhaust bores but it is there by about 3/8ths of an inch on the larger intake bores.

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If you do not know the age of the babbitt on the rod bearings, I would seriously consider getting at least the rods re-babbited.  I just had the main bearings on my truck re-babbitted because they started crumbling like an old dry cookie. 

 

I would guess that they were at least 70 years old even though when I looked at them a few years ago they looked perfect.   

 

I paid about $125/rod +- to have this work done and it is to me at least good peace of mind.

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Ok so I plan to pull the pistons out and check out the condition of the rings and at least clean them or possibly even replace them. Even though I have a 21 engine in my early 22, I believe the rings are the same.  Has anyone on this forum ever sourced replacement rings for the original pistons?

 

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I will need to find where I originally got the rings for 15 truck with original pistons which were cast iron, but I eventually put aluminum pistons and modern rings in the truck.  It will help in oil consumption and can increase you horsepower I have been told up to 10%. 

 

Also with less rotating mass it should be easier on the bearings. 

 

Ignore the comment on aluminum pistons if your car already has them.

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My day was not as exciting as Hugh’s day getting his body mated to the frame, but it was an exciting day for me as I pulled the old gal out of the garage with her new shoes on and pressure washed the outside of the block and trans.  Rolls much easier with these new tires than with 3 old flat tires. 

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Mark

While you have good access to the block core plugs, it would be a great time to pull them and make sure you don’t have built up crud in your block. It is likely the plugs are steel and probably ready to rust through. 

 

What is the red car hiding in the garage?

 

Jim

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Mark,

Since you are this far down with the engine, please let me make a suggestion to you.  There is a company in Massachusetts that does the 'thermal cleaning' of castings (an engine cylinder block in this case) and this would be the best money that you will ever spend on the restoration of this engine.  The rust and scale in the water jacket could very well choke your radiator core up right quick.  The photo is of the cylinder block for my 1916 D-45 after the thermal cleaning.  I am not real sure which thread on here mentioned the thermal cleaning, but, I'll bet someone on here could find it for you.  I hope this information will be of some help for you.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

PB300339.JPG

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Today I decided to pull two of my pistons to see what condition they were in.  The first came right out with no effort and the second needed a little coaxing but not much really.  I could see the valves so next I planned to push them out.  

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The rings were all loose which surprised me.  All rings expanded and turned freely.  Pistons had a mound of carbon on the top but that came off easily with a wire wheel. Just as the parts manual says, all 4 rings look to be the same

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Edited by Mark Kikta
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They look pretty good to me, But I don’t profess to know what I’m looking for.  The bore from the second piston has some smeared rust. I need to clean that off better to see.  I had run a good bit of marvel mystery oil through them to get them unstuck.  Do you suggest cleaning the bores by hand or honing them?

Edited by Mark Kikta (see edit history)
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Morgan,  to get the cage nuts off I bought a large socket and cut it to make 4 longer portions to fit the cage nuts and crank them off.  I put the socket on each cage nut, tapped it on the top with a hammer and then cranked them off.  Some were h!rger than others but it worked pretty well.

 

The brass rod I have is about 1/2  or more diameter and about 2 ft long.

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Mark, 

    I am really glad to see the effort that you are putting in to pull the pistons and decarbonize.  It is all good insurance for having a successful start up.  It would not hurt to do a light hone.  You have to decide if you want to reinstall the rings or purchase new ones.  Not a big expense hopefully for rings.  I do know if you are going to replace the piston, you are looking at ~$1200 for the set.  For the price of a cylinder assembly gasket (Olsons gaskets has them), you could pull the cylinder assembly out and run it down to a machine shop and have them give the cylinder bores a look over.  He may charge a little, but you could get a professional opinion.  It might be easier to do the work you are doing on the bench top as well.  If you don't do the thermo cleaning, I would definitely at least pull the freeze plugs and clean all the block water jacket out with a coat hanger. I thought about the thermal cleaning after the fact.  I cleaned the block as best as I could, and I am installing a Gano filter in the upper radiator hose just in case to protect my radiator in case anything was missed.   No one knows it is there, and I can pull it if I see any problems as it will catch any loose rust particles and keep them out of my radiator.     Hugh

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Hugh,

 

I think it’s a no brainer to get new rings at a minimum. I may as well pull the top part of the block off at this point and have it checked out by a machine shop before I make my final decision on the rings/pistons.  I’ll need a valve job there too.

 

I will definitely use that filter on the coolant since it’s looking like I may need a  re-core on the radiator. 

 

Mark

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I just ran a Flex Hone through my bores. You can do that with the block in place.

My tired old parts engine, the bores only has .002" taper.

Depending on how far you tend to go on fixing or restoring the car, I'd let that be the criteria for just how much you want to do on the engine.

The engine can be made reliable without a  majot rebuild.

Depending on how the bores and crank measure out can help with a decision. 

I would go with at least new rings and with an oil control ring on the bottom. I think you will find that the bottom ring grove has slots in it, so an oil control ring would work.

 

Also, you can establish piston / bore clearance using a feeler gage and the piston with no rings.

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23 hours ago, Mark Kikta said:

Morgan,  to get the cage nuts off I bought a large socket and cut it to make 4 longer portions to fit the cage nuts and crank them off.  I put the socket on each cage nut, tapped it on the top with a hammer and then cranked them off.  Some were h!rger than others but it worked pretty well.

 

 

Yeah that's what I did. I still have them in case anybody wants to borrow them.

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