1922 engine progress

[Mark Kikta]

Well today I finally removed the remainder of the  pistons and valve cages.  Last week I took one of my pistons to my machine shop and he inspected the piston and Babbitt and after taking a micrometer to it, said he thought they were in pretty good shape.  If the cylinders are good, he thinks we should re-ring these pistons.  So soon I’ll take the upper block to him for a look.

[Brian_Heil]

Poor man’s disposable coolant filter is the foot of a pair of pantyhose captured in the upper hose at the clamp. 

[Brian_Heil]

The oil consumption on the original rings was never very good.  I get ~150 miles per quart touring in the summer with 20w50 and stock piston and rings of unknown age. 

 

A quick clean up hone can’t hurt but as noted pistons aren’t cheap.   

 

By my calcs 50,000 miles of touring would only pay for half a set of pistons based on what I pay for oil. Add boring and I’m even further ahead. 

 

I did the regression formula once for starting with 6 quarts and consuming one then adding a new quart then consuming it and so on.  The oil approaches something like 700 miles average mileage/age. 

 

I have a very strong hard drive magnet in the pan and I buy a case of 12, put six in the sump and when the 6 remaining get consumed, I change it and start over.  Or sooner as always seems the case due to a pending long tour week and not wanting to change on the road. 

[Mark Kikta]

I plan to only bore and get new pistons if my machinist tells me it needs it. He is of the belief we are building this car to have fun and drive occasionally but not every day.  I like his way of thinking.  

[DonMicheletti]

Mark,

Listen to your machinist. Let him guide you

[Mark Kikta]

So I’ve been thinking about how I will lift the upper block out of the car.  I’ve seen a number of pictures of guys doing that with chains etc. which how I normally do that.  Just wondering why I couldn’t just use some of my super heavy duty rope through a couple manifold holes and cage valve holes with my hoist to lift it off the lower block.  Seems easy.  Any issues doing that?

[DonMicheletti]

In reality, the block isnt that heavy.

 

First, break the block loose from the crankcase and  I think using heavy rope and common sense, the block should lift right off.

 

You do have to arrange the rope so that your lift will be straight up.

[Terry Wiegand]

Mark,

 

Don is right - lift it straight up and it comes off easily.  The photo shows how I did mine.  After I cleared the pistons I jacked the hoist up more to clear everything.  I'm guessing the bare block will weigh in at 75 - 100 pounds.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Mark Kikta]

Oh I see you have an open space between your banks of cylinders which I don’t have.  Wish I did.

[DonMicheletti]

You could use a chain bolted to a couple of studs on the top of the block.

Two 5/16" studs or bolts would be strong enought to hold the block safely

[Mark Kikta]

So maybe I could just use manifold bolts on one side and spark plug cover bolts on the other side with  chain.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Mark Kikta (see edit history)

[Morgan Wright]

Rocker arm bolts front and back

[Mark Kikta]

In the interest of documenting dismantling of my 1922 engine, here are a few pictures of tools I used to get the Valve Cages out of the engine.  I used this 1- 1/2  inch deep well socket purchased from Autozone that I cut/modified to remove the large nuts holding the valve cages in the block. It was a thick enough deep well socket that I used it to remove both exhaust and intake cages even though they are different sizes. 

 

Then after I removed all pistons, I was able to knock out all the valve cages from the bottom.  I tried this 5/8" dia bronze rod on the first two and it worked quite well and took very little coaxing to knock them out. I purchased a 1" wooden dowl to knock out the remainder and that worked well also.  The exhaust cages required more coaxing than the intakes due to the carbon buildup, but in the end nothing was damaged in the process.  I was happy about that.

[Mark Kikta]

The only part I have broken so far is this upper square headed bolt on the heat control valve.  The lower bolt was already broken but I broke the top one also trying to get it loose.

[Mark Kikta]

I received my crank starter receptacle back from the machine shop today.  He took out the sheared off pin in the shaft end that is supposed to engage the starter nut on the front of the crank. If anyone tries to replace this pin themselves, be sure you notice that there is a small pin through the larger one to ensure it doesn't come out. 

[Mark Kikta]

Yesterday I had a great experience when I traveled to Elkton, Maryland to purchase new rings for my original pistons.  I went to see Dave at Otto Gas Engine Works to have him take a look at my pistons and to fit them with a new set of rings..  Dave is a wealth of knowledge about these old cars and I really enjoyed learning about the old technology and design regarding rings and pistons.  He also has tens of thousands of rings in stock which in itself was fascinating.  Dave specializes in rings for old flywheel engines too.  He has some rather large ones around his place that I found very interesting.  

 

First of all Dave thought my pistons were in great shape and that I should have no issues installing new rings and putting it back together.   He believed that these were original rings as well.  Of course I will still get my local machinist to check out the bores.

 

He showed me that my pistons had a groove cut in them just below the 3rd compression ring which was designed to gather oil for the wrist pins. I had not noticed that.  After Dave took the first compression ring off, he spent some time explaining the design of that old ring.  I was fascinated by his explanation of the 1920's and earlier technology of making eccentric rings vs the concentric rings used today.  It seems they made these rings eccentric in the manufacturing process so that when they actually cut the ring and installed it in the pistons, it would be round and have even pressure against the cylinder walls. That's the best this non-engineer can explain it anyway. 

 

In the case of my rings, because the rings were eccentric they were worn unevenly.  The rings fit in the piston better on the thick portion than at the thin portion.  In fact the difference was about .005 inches.  The thin portion was worn more than the thicker portion.

 

Then Dave (Like some of you) suggested that we put oil control ring in place of that 4th(Bottom) ring. I was going to ask him about that, but he beat me to it.  Below you can see what the oil control ring looks like  I will need to drill 6 holes around the piston in the ring groove before installing this new ring. Dave said that I will have far less smoking, carbon buildup, plug fouling and oil usage by incorporating these oil control rings.

 

We chatted about oil usage in the 1920s and after I shared Brian H's story about burning a quart of oil every 150 miles, he also agreed that yes they burned a lot of oil in those days.  He told me that he has a lot of old oil control rings in his basement from a 1920's company that actually guaranteed that if you installed their rings, you would not burn more than a gallon of oil every 1000 miles. If that is good, imagine what bad was.

 

So I really enjoyed my day visiting and meeting Dave at Otto Gas Engine Works and I would recommend him to anyone needing help with ring issues.  He is a wealth of knowledge and information. I'm excited to continue this process of getting  this engine to run soon.

[DonMicheletti]

Mark,

 

That is great! Isnt it refreshing to talkwith someone who actually knows what he is doing and offers good advise?

 

My '18 originally had the concentric rings, but my later parts engine has the eccentric rings.  (or vice versa - to long ago to remember).

 

I also like the overlap at the ring gap ends of those older rings- neat

That overlap probably helped a lot without an oil control ring. 

[Mark Kikta]

Don,

 

It was very enjoyable.  I could have stayed there all day picking his brain but I know he had work to do.  He buys all of his rings from Hastings and he says that he has a lot of Hastings rings that they do not carry or make any longer. He gets a lot of calls from folks that Hastings has sent to him.

 

What will this country do when people with skills like Dave are no longer with us?  He even custom modifies rings on his lathes when required to custom fit them.

 

Amazing

[DonMicheletti]

It is great that we have those folks.

 

I have talked with Hastings about getting weird rings. there is a woman there who is a whiz and was really great in putting otrgether what i needed.

it is refreshing to get service liked that

[Mark Kikta]

Sounds like they are a pretty good company. What Buicks do you have Don?

[DonMicheletti]

I have an '18 E 45 (cover car May 2018 Bugle),.Two '38's. a 46S and a Roadmaster 81.  Plus others

 

I have had a 1910, 1031 and 1932's.

[Mark Kikta]

I am trying to remove the starter-generator but I am having some issues.

 

I cut the head off of the pin on the shaft between the starter and the water pump and punched it out. I removed the two screws on the plate on the housing where the shaft goes in to the starter-gen. Everything is loose on the other end but I can't get it lifted out.  It looks like I need to slide the starter-gen just a bit to the right to get the tip of the shaft out of the gear housing.

 

Is the collar that I punched the pin out of supposed to slide on the shaft?  I will not slide.

 

Any ideas would be appreciated. 

[DonMicheletti]

You have to remove all the linkage behind the SG that connects to the starting gears I think

[Mark Kikta]

I took the cover off of the gear box but the tip of the shaft wont clear the casing to lift out by about 1/8 inch or less. 

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark,  

   My understanding is that if you can not get the hub that is on the back end of the water pump shaft to slide closer to the water pump after removing the taper pin, then you need to remove the starter generator first in order to remove the water pump assembly.  See page 1 of the 11 page procedure.    Hugh  

          

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark, 

    On my 1925, even after removing the taper pins on the water pump shaft, the end collars would not slide without a lot of effort.  I had to use pullers and put things in the vise.  You are likely not going to be able to slide anything on that waterpump shaft until you can get it onto the bench.  My Starter generator had 3 bolts under it that held it into place.  

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta]

Thanks Hugh, I'll keep after it!  Just don't want to break anything.

[Jim Bourque]

Mark

The shaft in all likelihood is past its useful life due to corrosion at the packing nuts as well as the sleeve bearings in the pump housing being worn out.

With that being said, cut the shaft to remove.

I would also recommend that you remove the starter generator and go through it prior to using it.

 

Have you pulled the clutch inspection plate yet to have a look?

 

Jim

 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark, 

    I have a starter generator rebuild procedure as well when you are ready for it.    Hugh 

[Morgan Wright]

On 2/24/2019 at 9:16 PM, Mark Kikta said:

I took the cover off of the gear box but the tip of the shaft wont clear the casing to lift out by about 1/8 inch or less. 

 

You may need to remove the water pump shaft, don't cut it unless you have to, they sometimes can be reused. Open the timing gear case.

 

I don't know it this applies to your car, but in mine, when I punched out the taper pin at the S/G, the collar moved in the direction of the water pump and the end of the shaft was expose. I was able to remove the shaft with the water pump by pushing the drive gear forward until it detached from the camshaft gear (watch the punch holes) and I had to spin the gear a little so the shaft moved forward. Of course I had to remove the shaft bearing housing where it goes into the timing housing, but that's only a couple of nuts and coax it out. Once you get the shaft bearing housing loose the whole shaft falls in your hands.

 

But that's my car, maybe yours is different.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

[Morgan Wright]

On this video skip to 1:37 and see the shaft how it looks when its out.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-QN9J6_WKc

 

[Morgan Wright]

On your car, if the collar is jammed or rusted to the shaft and won't move, I would not worry about it. Just remove the shaft bearing housing and pull it backward on the shaft until it's all loose, push the whole shaft forward (that will unstick the collar for sure) until the water pump shaft drive gear unmeshes with the camshaft gear. I don't remember if the gear teeth had punch holes to mark the teeth, or whether I punched them myself, but it's critical to know which tooth aligns with which, because the water pump shaft drives the distributor and that would screw up the timing if you installed it on the wrong tooth between that shaft gear and the camshaft gear. Mark the gears yourself if you need to and take a photograph of the teeth before you remove the shaft.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Morgan Wright (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta]

Jim,

 

I have the flywheel cover off and my car is missing the clutch inspection plate. Looks like it’s stuck together but I haven’t looked at it much yet

[Morgan Wright]

I have a spare clutch inspection plate.

[Mark Kikta]

Morgan,

 

Darn I just put the timing gear cover back on.  Well sounds like I may need to try that angle before cuting the shaft.

[Mark Kikta]

Morgan,

 

Ill buy that plate from you,  How much do you want for it?

[Morgan Wright]

25 cents

[dibarlaw]

20 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Mark, 

    On my 1925, even after removing the taper pins on the water pump shaft, the end collars would not slide without a lot of effort.  I had to use pullers and put things in the vise.  You are likely not going to be able to slide anything on that waterpump shaft until you can get it onto the bench.  My Starter generator had 3 bolts under it that held it into place.  

 

Hugh and I have been in the thick of things with our 1925 Pumps. The main difference is that our pumps "float" on the shaft. The earlier pumps are secured to the crankcase in some fashion. It was hard enough to get the coupling to move back on my car that had seen service and was in fairly clean shape. I used a thin block of hard wood and a ball joint fork to pry back from the S/G.  I purchased a spare 1925 Standard engine that had sat in a garage for nearly 75 years. So things took longer to get moved. It did not help that when I turned over the engine with a crank nothing happened at the water-pump shaft ?? I found out the fiber timing gear had already been removed! But, as Hugh has indicated. Drive the pins out of the coupler and the front bearing collar. Clean up shaft ahead of the direction the collar and coupling.  The front bearing collar may need to be gripped to get to move as that fit was quite tight on my shaft.

 Rear coupling and front bearing  pulled back ready to lift out.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

This is what I sent out to some of my Buick Buddies about my experience over that last few days.

Hugh and all:

 "WARNING, WARNING, DANGER WILL ROBINSON". As I told Hugh I was preparing to get the engine running again to check the newly machined and re-built water pump with modern lip seals.  All went back together on the engine well. I thought that the fit after I drove the coupling collar pin home was a bit tight fore and aft to the shaft. I timed the engine then tried to start. The S/G would not motor!!!  I had remembered a conversation with Terry about that Oldham coupler needing about .050 play max. I had in the meantime checked wiring, connections, switches etc. even made a new lead from coil to S/G. No good, things were still locked up. I checked all the dimensions between the 2 pump shafts and they were within 1/64" less on the new shaft. The collar locating pin hole on the coupler that I fit to the new shaft was about 1/16" off from the one that came with my car. I drove the pin out of the pump on the car and moved the collar back. S/G motors. I tried to feel if the Oldham loose plate was seating properly and it seemed to be. I moved the collar back into position, put in a longer taper pin until it seated with hand pressure. I tried the switch and the S/G motored nicely.  I tapped the pin in a bit tighter.... No more motoring. I drove that pin back out and pushed in hand tight again and it was motoring again. I will try to get the loose plate out and have it surface ground at least .030. There may be enough room to snake it out. Otherwise out comes the water pump again.!

Beware ..

 Larry DiBarry

Hugh sent me a series of solutions to avoid resurfacing the coupling ring. All of which would have required me to pull the pump again. I did not like the idea of draining, removing hose, driving pins out and all AGAIN.

Hugh:

 To late... Done... I surface ground about .020 from the coupling ring. I worked both sides on my big belt sander.  It only took about a half an hour. Stared out as .421 thickness now .400.  Surface variation is only about .002 so not bad. I have several from other S/Gs.

 When the shaft coupler is pulled back there is just enough room to pull out the coupling ring. All put back together and the armature is motoring and starter works smooth as silk. Success!!

 Anything else would have had me pull the pump again.

 Good news today !! After I retimed the engine AGAIN. I started the engine and ran it for about 15 minutes. Not a drop from the pump with the new stainless shaft, new bushings and the VERY EXPENSIVE LIP SEALS.

 

[dibarlaw]

The punch alignment marks on the front of the timing gears are for the engines initial assembly and timing. Once the water pump is removed all bets are off. No way could one be sure to get the alignment back unless they pulled the front cover. That is why the distributer shaft can be unlocked and adjusted. Even if you had the cover off and set all the marks to align you still have to unlock the distributer shaft to re time. I have had my pump out twice and had it retimed within10 minutes according to the shop manual directions.