hddennis Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I need some guidance on something I've never had to deal with before, persistent oil leaks! When I got ready to fire up my Maxwell for the first time I filled it with 30W non detergent from Shell and when I came out to the garage the next morning my newly assembled motor was leaking like a sieve. Online research revealed I'd been sold mislabeled synthetic oil which is known to leak in older motors. I've disassembled it twice and cleaned and made new cork gaskets and refilled with non detergent oil all to no avail. I'm about to add detector dye and see if I can pinpoint the exact points of leakage and do something I've NEVER done in over half a century of motor rebuilding and that's to slather it up with sealer to try and stop this annoying problem. Does anyone have a leak proof sealer they can recommend that has always worked for them. Don't care if it's one of the old time sealers or something space age designed specifically to stop this crappy synthetic oil from ruining my restoration, garage floor and marriage!! Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Thinking about it from here, I would drop the oil pan and look for rust pinholes in the bottom where water might have sat for years. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Do you have any idea of the general area where the leaks, are coming from? Did you actually start the motor, or just fill it with oil and wait until the next day, when you discovered the leaks? If you never started the motor, the leaks have to be coming from somewhere below the top of the oil pan, perhaps, as FlatTop suggests, from pinholes in the pan. What make and year of car are we talking about? In my experience, slathering on sealant, rather than finding the source or cause of a leak, is the wrong way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 Thanks Bernie, that half century of engine rebuilding I mentioned was mainly done on antique motors and after an early experience with a Model A motor that sat for 50 years and had the oils acids pinhole the dipper trays, that is one of the first things I look for. This is a very clean bare metal pan and the leaks seem to be going through the pipe threads on the drain plug, between the block, pan and gasket as well as through the pan bolts. Basically anywhere that damn synthetic oil touched the 30w follows. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Do you use any kind of sealer on the cork gaskets? Some guys prefer to put them on dry but others use a shellac or gasket sealer. You sound experienced, so I might be telling you something you already know, but that can make a huge difference in how porous the gaskets are, especially on an oil pan where the pressure on the gasket can be inconsistent. Is the oil pan rail as flat as possible? I have also seen cast aluminum oil pans with porosity and after so many decades, they're simply saturated. The oil just weeps out through the pan and since it's already saturated, you can't really paint or seal it because nothing will stick to it. Drain plug leaks are pretty common. Sometimes I'll put a few wraps of Teflon tape on the threads to help them seal up. Synthetic oils aren't doing any damage, but since the synthetic molecule is smaller and a straight chain rather than a cluster, it fits through smaller holes where regular oil can't. That's why they have a reputation for "causing" leaks, although the problem is just that the smaller synthetic molecule is finding existing leaks that regular oil can't. It might take a while for all the synthetic oil to work its way out of those areas and dry out again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 A cork gasket does not need any kind of sealer. The cellular structure of cork means it won't absorb liquid, nor allow liquid to pass though it. The leaks have to be coming from other places. Early cars can have cracks that aren't visible, plugs that don't plug, drain valves that don't seal, gasket surfaces that are warped, the list goes on. I tried to get everything as tight as possible on my 1910 Hupp, then for the transmission and rear end use a semi-fluid oil/grease, and that seems to help. One still gets leaks, but they're minimized. Good luck! OH! On the aluminum oil pans, there once was a process called vacuum degreasing that sucked the oil out of porous aluminum. I remember having it done when I worked at a restoration shop back in the 1980's. I tried in vain to find such a service now, have had no luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymouthcranbrook Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Not to spit in the Holy Water with this but I put a container of this into my 1952 Plymouth that had a rear main seal leak(like most) and it seemed to slow it down quite a bit. https://www.amazon.com/ATP-AT-205-Re-Seal-Stops-Bottle/dp/B000NVW1LM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 If I was blindfolded and had all the comments read to me, I would think a minute, ask how many quarts were require, how many were being added to fill it, and do some arithmetic. Sounds like it is getting overfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Separate topic really, but non-detergent oil is a bad idea. Yes, no filter, then change frequently. You won't be putting grinding paste in the bearings, you will be keeping the oil ways and the inside of the engine clean, meaning better oiling in the future. I find oil coming out of all the bolts that have one end in the oil and one in the air. I went to a great deal of trouble to clean and seal the differential bolts. I got four years before a leak developed. The sump bolts are the same but there are ca forty of them. Grrrr. PTFE tape doesn't work very well either. I just wish there was something like plumber's hemp that swelled on oil saturation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Dobbin Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I don't think I'd use synthetic oil in a Maxwell. Maybe 20/50 or straight 50 weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 I have to respond to several responses: Overfilled? I didn't work for over half a century on motors without knowing enough to NOT overfill a motor especially when it has a cork float gauge on the side of the block! Synthetic oil was sold to me as non detergent in mislabeled bottles, I didn't choose to use synthetic intentionally. My 1917 Maxwell has survived just fine on a diet of non detergent oil for over a hundred years and I see no reason to change now especially on a car used very little in controlled environments with frequent oil changes. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Howard with consideration of your experience I would say your detector dye might be the only way to be sure what is going on. I would also steal a couple cookie sheets from the wife’s kitchen fill them with kitty litter before trying the dye. Then when you buy your wife new cookie sheets you will be a hero and have saved your marriage. As Lucy used to say that will be 5 cents please. Dave S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) Thanks Dave, I've been hoping this thing would clear up for a long time now and purchased a large drip pan from local auto parts store. Pretty sure as stated above the synthetic oil opened pathways and if I can ever get it all cleaned out and using sealers I "should" be able to stop it. I think the most leakage is through the pan bolts which are drilled into the crankcase and oil spray hits the ends when it's running. Wish I could sue Shell for all this unnecessary aggravation. Howard Dennis Edited July 5, 2018 by hddennis (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) Howard you are still going to have a problem if you don’t get new cookie sheets. My way solved most of your problems, floor, marriage, but not the leaks. Dave S. Lol Edited July 5, 2018 by SC38DLS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Yea that's a cover up.years on the forum I know hd knows what he is doing,actually amazing he is asking for help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 If it's only the pipe threads and pan bolts, thats an easy fix with sealant. Trim, on your post 6, I did a repair on an aluminum oil pan and it was a monster. Every time that I thought it was clean enough to TIG weld, I could literally see the oil coming up from the aluminum when I started a weld. I also found a heated, vapor degreaser at an aircraft repair shop that helped, but still did not entirely solve the problem. Like you, I can't find a company that does it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 hour ago, hddennis said: Wish I could sue Shell for all this unnecessary aggravation. Here's the Shell label crew on break. Coveralls from their former employer, let go for unnecessary aggravation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playswithbrass Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 For the cleaning of aluminum oil pans etc. I have a 5 gallon bucket of carb cleaner(expensive but worth it) that I use and after cleaning paint/seal the inside with armature paint,works excellent. I would agree use the dye,diagnose the problem and repair as my old service manager used to say you can not repair what you don,t know is broke.. Cheers pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Maybe someone is going in your shop and just pouring oil on the floor under your motor just to cause you a big headache. Sounds stupid, but I think some of that crap was going on out here. Along with a bunch of other BS to cause a business harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 7 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: Here's the Shell label crew on break. Coveralls from their former employer, let go for unnecessary aggravation. Bernie, funny you should post this image. I have this picture on a period post card and believe the guy on the far left is Eddie Rickenbacker who drove for Maxwell. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 7 hours ago, old car fan said: Yea that's a cover up.years on the forum I know hd knows what he is doing,actually amazing he is asking for help. Thanks for the vote of confidence but my asking shows how frustrated I actually am. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Bond Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 What year is the Maxwell? I know several who have messed with the early ones and the aluminum castings are always a problem. They seemed to be very porous. Those early cars were especially prone to throwing oil all over the place through open valves. Some have said it's how they lubricated everything, others say if it's leaking, you know they have oil. Even our newer MGs have a reputation for "marking their territory." Finally helped the oil leaks on my Model T by using -0-rings on the transmission cover where pedal shafts come thru, and there are some known tricks for helping seal oil pan bolts. Guess we need some Maxwell experts to chime in here but could it be you're chasing a problem that is just something inherent in the beast? Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 Thanks Terry, it's a 1917 so it's a completely different beast than the early ones, more akin to a Model T Ford engine. Please share your oil pan bolt sealing tricks as I believe that is my main problem. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 9 hours ago, hddennis said: Bernie, funny you should post this image. I found it when I searched your name. Your reply to my thought the engine being overfilled made me think I was to assume that couldn't happen. The Devil made me check your digital footprint. By the way, how old is the cork in that float? Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hddennis Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 58 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: I found it when I searched your name. Your reply to my thought the engine being overfilled made me think I was to assume that couldn't happen. The Devil made me check your digital footprint. By the way, how old is the cork in that float? Bernie Nice try on the float. It was replaced with modern Nitrophyl replacement about a year ago. Howard Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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