So Let's talk Buick's frame to body rubber insulator mounting system

[buick man]

First off a descriptive narrative of the components that mount the frame to the body … Well this week finds me preparing to install complete new rubber frame to body bushings complete with the requisite metal "U" shaped shims.  As pictured below note how the bushing system is composed of various components and installed in a sandwich style configuration consisting of the lower or bottom frame flange side bushing components and likewise the upper frame flange mount components … In the first photo starting at the left is the central special factory frame thru to body mounting pointed tip bolt … this is followed by the lower frame flange components starting with the large flat thick washer, then a thick 2 inch x 2 inch x 7/8 inch rubber block insulator … this insulator allows the next component ... the round barrel shape metal bushing sleeve to fit into it so that when installed the barrel bushing rests centered within the frame to body mounting flange and rests into the lower rubber block insulator and protrudes up into the next component  … the upper frame flange large thick 2 inch x 2 inch rubber insulator block and on top of that will rest a 16 gauge "U" shaped metal shim that goes between this upper rubblier block insulator and the body pan itself … so when correctly installed in a sandwich fashion which as laid out and as depicted in the photos the entire mounting pieces and bolt are torqued 30-35 foot pounds.

 

Now I am currently in the process of replacing my old dried out and overly compressed original factory rubber insulator mounts … the process of removing them from the body entailed using a hydraulic jack with a 4x4 about 2-1/2 feet long wooden block perched between jack pad and lower rocker metal area and the body to rocker pinch seam so as to distribute the lifting forces thereby eliminating the chance for any metal collapse or bending to occur … this allowed me enough lift of the body from the frame to be able to easily pry out using a standard blade screwdriver the upper rubber insulator and "U" shaped shim from between the frame flange and the body pan … in the process of doing so, I discovered that although not illustrated in the factory Body Manual nor Shop Manual, there this "U" shaped 16 gauge metal shim as shown in the photos that I found rests when mounted between the upper rubber insulator and body pan perch point … and as stated the factory shop manual only indicated the rubber insulator with no metal shim …. I bring this point up since upon examining the complete mounting components, why would the factory have installed this 16 gauge metal U shaped shim between the boy and upper rubber insulator as one would think this would upon body movement encourage chances to cause metal squeaking sounds when the metal shim would move rub against the upper metal body pan area it is sandwiched between … which would lead one to surmise that a better scenario would be to just install the upper rubber insulator block leaving out this metal U shaped shim … It is also interesting to note this shim is U shaped with one side opened and when factory placed and positioned on the car on the assembly line the open end is always pointed to the rear of the car … 

 

… So this all leads me to ask the question, should one remove the old upper metal U shims or leave them in ??? …  If you leave them in upon installing new upper and lower rubber insulators would this set one up for future frame squeaks of the kind we have all heard stories of on time or another ?? … Perhaps on could either leave them in or take them out but either way apply a good quality rubber grease between the body and between the upper and lower insulators prior to torquing the sandwich together … So this is the question of the day shims or no shims and rubber grease the components or not ??? …..

 

Any takers on chiming in here and advising us as to what they have done or have heard that would be the best approach to assure or minimize  frame to body mounted squeaking  ….  rubber grease or not or with or install without the factory metal U shims  …. ? 

 

Also included are photos of stainless steel replacement U shims I had made up via a computerized water jet setup that a local shop operates  since proper sized replacements are not available from any sources that we know of are pictured in the photos sets as well ….

 

Here are the factory mounting components … the round insulator is lower and the square insulator is the upper one with barrel bushing fitting and sandwiched in between them

 

 

 

 

As shown here .. the two rubber insulators are separated by the frame to body mount perches on the frame and coming off the body inner sill area ….

 

 

 

 

 

 

… this photo compares the original factory metal U shim to the one I produced on the water jet machine …. a perfect match both in thickness and contour except the new ones are out of stainless steel ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NTX5467]

The "u-shaped shim" you picture are what I'd term normal "fender shims" or "front-end alignment shims" of a particular thickness.  From the pictures, they appear to be copper rather than normal steel.  Is that accurate?

 

IF the shims are indeed copper, there should be enough softness to allow for minor movements with little to no auditory result of the movement, if any.  The orientation of the slot would probably more related to how things happened on the assembly line AND worth noting for a 105% correct restoration situation.

 

As with any shim, it's there to adjust/compensate for "gaps" or normal production tolerances.  If the factory put them there, they could well be "select fit" and need to be there for everything else to be as it needs to be.

 

The center bushing is needed to keep the rubber portions of the body mount from compressing more than is necessary.  The washer is there to provide a sliding interface between the bolt head and the rubber it's compressing.  Of course, you can see how the upper and lower rubber portions index with each other.

 

On later circular-shaped mounts, the ends of the rubber cylinders usually have a metal washer made into them.  Many also have the metal sleeve integral to them, too, as others have it as a separate item.  In some cases, I seem to recall that the metal sleeve has a flat washer that slides into the rubber and then the upper "flat" is then placed directly against the floorpan of the body.

 

In any event, I'd recommend you reassemble the new mounts exactly as the old ones disassembled.  If you desire some "rubber grease", I'd recommend the dielectric silicone paste that is also used on spark plug boots.  It is very resistant to water and such, which might aid the longevity of the rubber and also provide a sliding interface so everything will find "its place and position" once assembled.

 

The ends of the bolts are pointed as they are to ease insertion alignment on the assembly line.  Kind of like "just point it there and it'll go in and work".  There are later versions, with a blunt, rounded end before the threads start, which are termed "dog point" bolts, which better ease the initial alignment in the bolt hole so cross-threading possibilities are greatly diminished.

 

NTX5467

[buick man]

… thanks for your input  NTX… the factory shims are carbon steel and the ones I have made are stainless so no copper …. I have a tub of pure Castrol red rubber grease ,,, the good stuff  … I had the guy make my shims and had a choice of metal so I went with stainless, I was only gonna have him make one for me cause one mount had it missing and had all made up since the cost was minimal and the same as for one … since these shims are 16 gauge it could not of been intentional to leave it out so it had most likely just fallen off prior to them lowering the body down onto the frame as it was rolling down the assembly line … I think what they did as evidenced by inspecting the originals was taped the upper insulator and U shim against the body pan at some point prior to having the body lowered perhaps at the Fisher plant … I posted this thread since in the past I have heard discussions on some pros and cons to using the rubber grease and also having these metal shims against the body pan as the factory did .. a possible source of squeaks  as reported by some full body off restorers …. NTX you are right the Upper Square rubber insulator has a thick metal washer vulcanized into the mating surface where and as a result has a layer of rubber over the metal so it does not come into contact with the metal U-Body washer and the body pan … on my initial rubber order the supplier sent the upper square insulators ones but with no metal vulcanized at all so I sent them back and then found ones that did …

Edited September 14, 2017 by buick man (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Both the body and frame have generous dimensional tolerances. The body generally will not set on the frame both level and with all body mounts in contact with the frame. The body is placed on the frame, leveled/centered with at least two or more body frame/mounts in contact and shims filling whatever gaps are in the remaining mounts. A properly mounted and tightened body shouldn't squeak............Bob

[NTX5467]

9 hours ago, buick man said:

 one could obtain a thin rubber sheet and cut individual ones out and place them between the top U shim and body pan or just rubber grease the U shim where it meets the metal body pan … 

 

OR , , , get some wax paper (the kitchen stuff) or aluminum foil (the kitchen stuff, too), then lay out the cleaned shims on it, then spray a thin coat of that wonder stuff "Flex Seal" on them, coating only one side and the edges.  When dry, you can cut the rubber with a sharp blade to remove the rubber-coated shim from the paper/foil.  Then remove any foil or paper which might have stuck to the backside.  Thin coat rather than thick to not have too much build thickness, but enough to reliably interrupt any metallic path for noise or otherwise.  Flex Seal is in colors, but WalMart has the clear, black, white, and I believe there is a lighter gray color, too,  (spray can, dip can, adhesive tape).

 

Just a thought,

NTX5467

[KongaMan]

Or buy bonded sealing washers.

[buick man]

… I am keeping my original bolts and original thick mounting washers that I had re-plated in Silver Cadmium just like at the factory when new and epoxy painted the barrel shims.  I replaced the original U shaped washer shims as shown above with the stainless steel ones I had made … I installed  new both upper and lower rubber insulators.  One has to watch out for the sellers that are offering frame mounting insulators but have no vulcanized inner metal washers this is incorrect so make sure you get the vulcanized ones ... The upper ones must have a vulcanized metal inset washer on the upper side where it meets the body pan .. I finished installing the complete passenger's side this evening 5 of them between the front and rear wheels, and two of the behind the rear axle line.  Used my jack as explained above for the sides and a long breaker bar for the rears … I will post photos of the install process and the tools I used …. I decided to put a light smear coating using Q-Tips to apply the rubber grease on all contact surfaces and went extra light on the upper insulator and the U shim washer against the body as I found if I used too much there the insulator and U shim wanted to dance out while I was tightening the bolt … Shop manual says 30-35 ft lbs of toque … I choice 30 after lightly oiling the threads on both the bolt and used a Q-Tip with a dab of oil for the cage nut contained in the upper rocker assembly … dave

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by buick man (see edit history)

[lancemb]

Buick Man thanks for posting this.  I am contemplating doing this on my coupe since mostly everything else will be apart.

Can you share where you wound up getting the bushings from?  How much trouble do you think I'll have on these bolts on a rusty car?

I'd like to see what your setup looks like with the jack, wood, etc. too...

[NTX5467]

Thanks for those updates!  35 lbs-ft of torque is basically what spark plugs get, so for a body mount, that seems a little low.  I'll need to check the specs for some other applications, for good measure.

 

If the factory bolts had the Mil-Spec salt water resistant "coating", you can replicate that look by using normal bolts and gun blueing liquid.  I saw that demonstrated and was amazed at how close it is.

 

NTX5467

[buick man]

… No we are just using all the original factory hardware, you know the bolts with the the big "R" in the middle … no corner hardware stuff allowed :') … I torqued to 30 and dared not to go over that … split the toques into halves to achieve the final 30 …at that torque the overall compression of the lower round rubber insulator against the thick washer told me that was ideal … I can always later go back and torque again … factory warns not to be aggressive …

 

lancemb … Yes I intend to photo the jack n block setup I used …. btw I can make the U shape shims up for you in stainless or carbon steel to exact factory original specs … If so, you would need to have on your 57 … 14 for all the U shim mounts  so this covers up to and including the special washer boxed forward footwell mount just behind the front tires on the frame on either side … however the front frame mounts where the front inner wheel / fender panels meets and joins the frame at the corner of the bumper takes at least 2 but each car is different as at this location additional shims are added or subtracted as needed … I can also look into reproducing the round lower insulator special factory thick round washers as well  … 

Cost is $ 8 each U shim plus shipping … PM me if interested … dave

 

Edit … oops meant to say the 2 mounts over the rear axle and the 2 at the rear cross member do not take the U shims only the thick round plate washers ….

Edited July 15, 2017 by buick man (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

5 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

Thanks for those updates!  35 lbs-ft of torque is basically what spark plugs get, so for a body mount, that seems a little low.  I'll need to check the specs for some other applications, for good measure.

 

 

IIRC, the specs for early-mid 60s cars are 25 at the core support and trunk, 35 behind the front wheels and behind the rear wheels, and 45 in front of the rear wheels.  There are 5 locations on each side with 6 mounts per side (a pair behind each front wheel).

[buick man]

… O.K. as requested here are the rest of the photos for all you kinky guys who requested the " show all " … here I am demonstrating the lifting technique and jack setup used … along with staging photos …..

 

Photo 1: Shows the original setup consisting of upper square metal shank vulcanized rubber mount, upper thick U shape washer and bottom round mount which accepts the large round washer and cone tipped set bolt ...

Photo 2 : Showing new rubber set, new stainless U-washer, original newly Cad Plated round washer, original barrel shim epoxy painted and original cone set bolt epoxy primed with galvanized paint applied

Photo 3: Illustrating set up using rubber grease … note this is the passenger side mounting sets

 

Photo 4:  Showing applied grease …Careful ….This photo below shows what way too much grease looks like,  this is just after I applied it on the very 1st one, it was then immediately wiped down by 90 % with a shop paper towel to remove all the excess to just a light transparent coating film … note: after mounting the first one, I drastically reduced the grease to just a slight swipe film as mentioned with a cotton swab and dab on each component with a dry shop towel … the mounting was made much easier upon torquing as the lower mount  if too much grease is applied will allow the lower mount to slide in a clock wise fashion to one side as torque is applied … greatly reducing the grease to just a very light cursory smear transparent film cured that scenario … However with all this noted, please remember to machine oil the threads of the pointed set bolts before installing as to help obtain the correct torque values while making sure the threads are clean and free of  debri …. Also wait to torque the bolts after installing all of their complete rubber components on the side you are working on … then go back over them and torque using the half to half torque technique … which is first torque all the bolts to half the full factory spec then go back over them and increase torque to the full factory spec …. I found 30 lbs to be ideal while using a spade standard wide screw driver to help keep the lower round mount from wanting to slide over in clock wise direction … with that noted, some install dry as the factory did and works,  I choose to use the rubber grease … we shall see how is all works out once on the road …..

Photos 5, 6 & 7: This is the jack set-up I chose to lift the rocker panel and unsecured/unbolted frame up on the passenger side.  Before I did this, I had to temporarily re-install the complete old upper and lower rubber mounts, barrel shim, large washer and cone set bolt into each location on the driver's side since I had previously removed them as well, if you do only one side at a time this would of course not be necessary … This is important because you DO NOT want to have the body shift on the frame while lifting the passenger side so keeping the other side of the car/frame securely mounted  holds everything true in place and on their perspective marks …. The double pad beam truss top attachment  on this jack was acquired separately from the jack itself and attaches by removing the normal round center pivot pad and replacing with this setup attachment … it allows one as can be seen to mount and hold objects while at the same time distributing the stress loading along the rocker so no metal denting will occur … a towel was used as a buffer between the sheet metal and the wooden beam for added cushion protection ….

 

 

Photos 8, 9, 10 & 11 :  Staging of mount installation along passenger side mount truss areas ….

Photos 12,13,14 & 15 :  Showing the most difficult area … The rear most outboard mounting points 2 each and the inner rear wheel well arch mounts 2 each… shown is the passenger side with a piece of 1x4 set so as to give me lift … however after doing this,  I found out the hard way that by just keeping the car jacked and lifted in place and installing all the mounts from front to rear OR rear to front that the frame will be lifted enough to get to these rear 4 mount locations .. of course my entire exhaust system in these photos had previously been removed as was the complete rear bumper components … this could be an advantage in accessing the 4 rear mounts but probably removing the rear exhaust or bumper to do this would not be necessary ….. The trunk bolts are long and pointed as are the forward side mounts and unlike them, when  properly installed are pointed down toward the ground ...

 

 

Photos: 16, 17, 18 & 19 Demonstrating the how the front body mounts located at the foot sill of the fire wall are mounted … as can be seen here the washer and bolts set is of a unique factory design consisting of a special cage nut flange assembly and a specially cut heavy washer that is needed clear the mount as shown when fastened to the frame … there is one set located at the foot well on each side

 

Photos: 20-24 :  Photos of complete rubber mounts setup, jack with 4 x 4 block and process of installation of first upper square rubber mount, with the thick U shaped washer place between the upper square rubber mount and the frame perch, the upper rubber mount can be seen protruding thru the frame perch … this is  followed by the lower round rubber mount and finally the placement of the heavy washer and pointed set bolt  …. shown are the frame mounts on the outer sill areas …..

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by buick man (see edit history)

[dei]

Excellent documented tutorial for anyone considering a body off frame restoration Sir! 

 

[lancemb]

1 hour ago, dei said:

Excellent documented tutorial for anyone considering a body off frame restoration Sir! 

 

Yes very helpful to know what I'll be getting into in coming months.  I don't plan to have body off for very long or to go anywhere so I'll be doing basically the same thing to timing is perfect.  I'll also be ordering the mounts based on his recommendations to save time!

[old-tank]

Good writeup.  You have a pm.

[Kosage Chavis]

Mental note..."need to come back and re-read this thread when it's my turn." This is very valuable, thank you much.

[buick man]

… Oh did I mention … this is a " Body On " installation that you can easily accomplish using this approach … Also I have received some learned responses indicating that perhaps not all cars received  these body U-shims or if so just where needed … or they were added later at some point … Well that may very well be the case with your car so I would reinstall what you find and not try and reinvent the wheel even if you think that the new insulators will just "take up" that old slack … Like to point out that this particular 57 had the original factory tape which kinda looks like old scotch tape … this was attached over the metal  U-body shim and slung down over the upper rectangular insulator and onto the frame truss perch they sat on top of … kinda of interesting … so I know mine were all original so I just replaced what I took out to keep things the  same … there was one perch on the driver's side that did not have one but when replacing I installed one there anyway as I could assertain if it was intentional or just left out by some guy with a sore shoulder in the line pit …. it synched up just fine when torqued and no concernable differences were noted before or after installation with regard to the body pan or frame perch … since we are only talking about a 16 gauge thick washer …..

Edited September 14, 2017 by buick man (see edit history)

[highcking]

I accessed this thread because of something I noticed today while working underneath my '58 Roadmaster (doing seatbelt installation). First note that the underbody of this car is pretty rusty and previous owners seem to have left this alone. I think the car was undercoated early in its history (in NY state). It has never had the body and frame removed so far as I can tell, though perhaps someone tried and stopped partway.

 

Anyway -- I noticed that some (at least 2) of the rubber body cushions on each side are missing the bolts, nuts and  bushings. I can provide pictures if need be. I didn't notice this issue when I had the old interior and seats out of the cabin, though I don't know if that would have mattered. Now everything is assembled down to the seatbelts. 

 

Question -- can these defective mounts be fixed with the car fully assembled? It looks to me that on the cushions that are present (they look original), the bolt head is on the bottom and the nut is on the top of the assembly where I can't see it.

 

All advice welcome.

 

Bill in Luray 

[buick man]

Hello Bill ... Yes replacing all body mounts and hardware can be accomplished without removing body from frame .... However, not sure exactly what you mean by asking " ... the bolt head in on the bottom and the nut is on the top of the assembly ... " If you are referring to the side frame rail area ie. along the side where the car doors are located above, the nuts are what is referred to as cage nuts and are set at the factory inside body pan.  I believe you can access them from inside the car floor pan.  I state this because many who remove their body mount main bolts that indeed are rusted, can easily break lose their corresponding body inside upper cage nuts set into the body pan from the inside at the factory.  Then if that happens one has to use a round cup bit on a drill and drill open the metal enough to expose and gain access to the  factory detached cage nut and replace.  If you do not, then when attempting to install the pointed factory frame mount 3/8 inch hex head bolt it will not thread and just spin resulting in not being able to seat and torque the bolt and compressing as necessary the 2 rubber body cushions  .... Hope this helps clarify.

Edited December 17, 2020 by buick man (see edit history)

[highcking]

Yes, that is very helpful advice as it explains why I don't see a nut for threading the bolt into. Lots of rust in this area. It's possible that the "previous owner" broke loose the cage nuts, or they might still be there. When the Virginia weather gets better I'm going to look at this problem more carefully. I might ask two questions as this stage: (1) why does Steele carry several different body mount cushions for 1958 Buick, and (2) what is a "pointed
3/8" hex head bolt"? See pictures.

 

 

 

 

[buick man]

They probably carry different pointed bolts that if you examine them closely most likely have longer of shorter neck shanks and/or thread links.  But the proper bolt dimensions are one that when all your components are sandwiched together including the thickness of the frame mount body perch the shank or neck of the bolt should have no threads on it and the thread portion is only used to allow the bolt to thread into the inner body cage nuts. This assures the rubber mounting components do not have interference with any thread portions of the bolt itself.

 

I purchased my rubber components from Restoration Specialties.  I did so because I found that their catalogue gives a more complete and more sophisticated selection and assortment along with the dimensions of the components you want and their drawings are to scale and not just a photograph like a breakfast plate item off a menu from Denny's.   Also, if you call them, the guys there will go out of their way to explain and verify component dimensions anything similar that is not listed in the catalogue or on-line. Make sure the upper square mount has the internal vulcanized metal washer encapsulated in it.  I forget where I got the ones without the vulcanized washer but just beware that is a needed item.   Although Steele is a good source especially for weather window seals it is hard in my opinion to find the experienced one-on-one help you find at Restoration Specialties.   So in short, don't buy anything until you get one of the side frame mount and all of it's components out and measured and spec'd out before you order.  Remember if you are replacing all your frame mount components throughout, the rear 2 bolts are longer that are located in the trunk on either side over the axle and the front 2 that are located on either side of the foot wells up front are a different size and the 2 located at the front frame cross member near the radiator mount are somewhat different as well.  So I would take one of each off of the four areas to use as a calibrater before you order anything from either source.  Hope this helps out.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by buick man (see edit history)

[Smartin]

@highcking the bolts are 7/16" not 3/8 FYI.👍

[highcking]

I’ve dealt with Resto Specialties before and had the same experiences. Thanks for the reminder. I’ve been ordering weatherstripping from Steele (at amazing costs) and had them on my mind. 
 

Eventually I’ll try to replace all the body bushings I can get at. For the moment I’ll concentrate on the missing ones. I expect the new tires to arrive today (800-15 bias) and need to get them installed along with four new springs. 
 

I did manage to thread the front seatbelts between the back and seat bottom without any cutting of fabric. Very tricky task that’s easy on most old cars and trucks.

[Matt Harwood]

Thanks for posting this. I am planning on embarking on the same project here eventually. The thing in my way is the price of the reproduction bushings--they're like $14 each from Steele and I need something like 44 of them for my Limited. That's a big nut. I was looking at fiber-reinforced rubber in bulk sheets and cutting it to size to make the square bushings, but if they have washers embedded in them, perhaps that's not the solution. Do you mind sharing the costs involved with your project? That would be helpful for me to decide which way to go (I'm off to look at the Restoration Specialties catalog right now!).

 

Thanks for posting this!

[jsmittie41]

I'm a johnny-come-lately to this thread but I'd like to some acquired auto assembly knowledge to this discussion.   In the late 60's and 70's I was a production supervisor at the GM Baltimore, Md. assembly plant.   The car in this discussion appears older then what we built, but I'm sure some assembly line processes didn't change.  I later worked in the Plant Engineering Department and out of necessity for some of my projections studied where and how conveyors and equipment was placed many years before.    In our plant Fisher Bodies were completed on the 2nd floor and delivered to Chevrolet Motor Division to be placed on the completed chassis.   The bodies were lowered thru an opening in the 2nd floor onto the chassis which was on tires sitting on a flat-top floor conveyor.  At a production rate of anywhere from 45 to 60 cars an hour ( it was 60 per hour when I was there) there was no time for playing around with changing shims.  The body was set on the chassis and bolts were driven home, that was that.  One writer mentioned tape.  It is possible that shims and the rubber blocks were pre-assembled and taped to the frame to keep them in place as the body was lowered.   Jim  BCA#3566 

[Smartin]

I always thought the tape was there to keep the bushings in place before the body was dropped on the chassis.  Just my own assumption, no first hand knowledge.

[buick man]

17 hours ago, Smartin said:

@highcking the bolts are 7/16" not 3/8 FYI.👍

... yes and too and that also means the hex "head" of the bolt is 3/8 FYI ...  and has the big factory R embossed on it  ....

[Smartin]

If the threads are 7/16, then the head is 5/8

[60FlatTop]

Take a look at some '55-'57 Chevy motor mounts for the '41 Buick. I used to keep a few new ones around and they will probably do the job just fine.

 

When I put the body back on my '64 Riviera I walked around the junkyard looking over the mounts on cars on their side. That was in 1993. I went to the Chevy dealer and ordered 8 or 10 sets of 1976 Chevy B-body mounts. They were great replacements for the squashed and dried originals. The Riviera has oval mounts at the rear of the frame. They looked good so I gave them a lanolin massage (D&L hand cleaner) and reused them.

 

1993 to now and no issues.

Edited December 20, 2020 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[buick man]

SMARTIN my bad,  😜oops I make typo's .... yes 5/8 head on a 7/16 thread SAE bolt.  Gee 3/8's head on a 7/16 thread would look like Zippy Pin Head ! 

[Shootey]

On 12/19/2020 at 2:34 PM, 60FlatTop said:

Take a look at some '55-'57 Chevy motor mounts for the '41 Buick. I used to keep a few new ones around and they will probably do the job just fine.

Do you have any words of wisdom regarding body mounts on a 1941 Buick woodie?  I am considering replacing them without removing the body.  I am especially concerned with upsetting the door fit since the car is a woodie. I could just leave it alone. Thanks. 

[Smartin]

Leave it alone unless they are causing issues.