The right car for Peking to Paris 2019 Rally?

[Patrick De]

20 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Why do you insist on a roadster  body and solid axles with leaf springs front and rear? These requirements severely limit your choices, raise costs and may force you to use an unsuitable car, when better cars can be found for less money.

 

An open car, because this is more close to the original adventure spirit. Aren't those open Chrysler, Bentleys, and others.. nice and beautifull?  The leaf springs because we think they are better for the very long and heavy part in Mongoly. What would you suggest as suitable car, which we can buy direct?

And please don't say a Chevrolet or Ford coupe, because half of the prewars are those.

All others that may suit, but which you don't find to buy now direct are not relevant. We can not hope to maybe find a car in 6 months. The clock is ticking and we have a lot to do.

 

During June and July we should experience the following average daytime temperatures on the route:
max. min.
China 30°C 24°C
Mongolia 40°C 22°C
Russia 35°C 18°C
Kazakhstan 26°C 19°C
Europe 32°C 16°C

[Patrick De]

34 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said:

I notice reading through this thread that the poster is more concerned about mechanical reliability. That is all very well but my concerns about the strength of the Carlton body have not been answered. It must be super rare car so it would be a pity of it was destroyed.

 

Very right about the Carlton wood with alloy body, which has already some big cracks in the aluminium on the rear part. One of the reasons why it is not expensive. Intentention is not to destroy the car, but to reinforce where necessary. The rear part has to be renewed anyway, which we would than do after the rally. The interior will be stripped to accomodate it for this long rally. Afterwords all the original upholstery would be put back in place.

 

If we don't find a proper alternative.

 

Wednessday we have a meeting to go through al the information we have gathered to see which direction we will be goiing.

[Patrick De]

56 minutes ago, 1939_Buick said:

The car will be trashed after the event, if it survives. Many do not. It is not a race, but a hard endurance event.

Have read the fuel grade/quality is poor in many places, so a low compression engine is better than a high compression.

A car with a wood framed body (coachbuilt) such as the Carlton is likely fall apart from the road conditions.

There is a big difference between a 1907 design & 1920's so your car will not be "close to the original" in "spirit"

 

 

Have a look at the 2016 participants list. Except from the La France, where 2 on 3 never arrive, the oldest car is a 1925. So knowing we are with a 1931 in the top 20 of oldest cars amongst the 110 participants, I feel quite comfortable that I'm close to the original in spirit. If you want I can explain it better in my proper language. Therefore I use the " ...  " and therefore I have already apologized  If sometimes I don't express myself well in English. 

[Rusty_OToole]

Given the limitation to 1941 and older with solid front axle my choice would be a Dodge sedan of 1937 or 38. They are plentiful, not expensive, and are a rugged well built car. The engine they used in the Canadian made models is the same block as used in DeSoto and Chrysler. This engine will also fit American made Dodges with a little work.

 

The engine is a flathead inline six of up to 265 cu in. It was used by the millions in Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler cars and Dodge trucks, also as an industrial engine, a marine engine, and in military vehicles up to 1972. They are not hard to get and parts are available and not expensive. The 250 cu in version is easier to find than the 265. Stock HP  116 to 120, with 7.5:1 compression.

 

I would use one of those with an overdrive 4 speed from a Chrysler built car or light truck of the 1970s, or an even more modern 5 speed. Both these transmissions have a floor shift like the original. This would require replacing the rear axle with a more modern number. One from a Jeep Cherokee would be suitable. I don't know if such modifications are permitted. If not the stock 3 speed was available with overdrive although I am not sure if it was available in 1938.

 

The Dodge is the choice because it is the last car Chrysler made with solid axles front and rear.

 

The all steel sedan body is not only the cheapest option, it adds a lot of strength to the chassis.

 

The car already has features not found  on other low priced cars in 1938 including electric windshield wipers, tubular hydraulic shock absorbers,  4 wheel hydraulic brakes, insert bearings in the engine, full pressure lubrication, aluminum pistons.

 

If you wanted more ground clearance 17" wheels were an option, and a new set of springs could add another inch or two.

 

Such a car would be capable of going through some pretty rugged country, and cruising at 80MPH on good roads.

 

Here is what one looks like. Video picked off Youtube because it seemed to give the most complete information. I know nothing about this car or its owner. This car seems to have more modern 15" tires and wheels, considerably smaller than the 6.00 16 tires it came with.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Patrick De]

21 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Given the limitation to 1941 and older with solid front axle my choice would be a Dodge sedan of 1937 or 38. They are plentiful, not expensive, and are a rugged well built car. The engine they used in the Canadian made models is the same block as used in DeSoto and Chrysler. This engine will also fit American made Dodges with a little work.

 

The engine is a flathead inline six of up to 265 cu in. It was used by the millions in Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler cars and Dodge trucks, also as an industrial engine, a marine engine, and in military vehicles up to 1972. They are not hard to get and parts are available and not expensive. The 250 cu in version is easier to find than the 265. Stock HP  116 to 120, with 7.5:1 compression.

 

I would use one of those with an overdrive 4 speed from a Chrysler built car or light truck of the 1970s, or an even more modern 5 speed. Both these transmissions have a floor shift like the original. This would require replacing the rear axle with a more modern number. One from a Jeep Cherokee would be suitable. I don't know if such modifications are permitted. If not the stock 3 speed was available with overdrive although I am not sure if it was available in 1938.

 

The Dodge is the choice because it is the last car Chrysler made with solid axles front and rear.

 

The all steel sedan body is not only the cheapest option, it adds a lot of strength to the chassis.

 

The car already has features not found  on other low priced cars in 1938 including electric windshield wipers, tubular hydraulic shock absorbers,  4 wheel hydraulic brakes, insert bearings in the engine, full pressure lubrication, aluminum pistons.

 

If you wanted more ground clearance 17" wheels were an option, and a new set of springs could add another inch or two.

 

Such a car would be capable of going through some pretty rugged country, and cruising at 80MPH on good roads.

 

Thanks for the information Rusty.

On Hemmings no such a car.

I hoped you would have proposed an open car.

What do you think of this Chrysler http://www.stlouiscarmuseum.com/inventory/listing/1931-chrysler-cd8-deluxe-roadster/  ?

 

[Rusty_OToole]

If you insist on only looking at Hemmings a quick search turned up this 1937 Dodge in Quebec. This one would have the larger block engine being Canadian made, and the Chrysler engine would fit easily. I take it you didn't like the one in the video which is for sale.

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/dodge/unspecified/1890594.html

 

The Canadian dollar is much cheaper than the US dollar, about 1/3 cheaper, which means you can get better bargains in Canada. I don't know anything about this particular car but it is cheaper than the one in the video.

 

I am not so familiar with the earlier straight eight Chryslers. But I have faith in Chrysler engineering. I am sure in its day the 31 roadster  was as good as any car in its class and better than most. Sorry I don't know any more than that.

[Patrick De]

7 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

If you insist on only looking at Hemmings a quick search turned up this 1937 Dodge in Quebec. This one would have the larger block engine being Canadian made, and the Chrysler engine would fit easily. I take it you didn't like the one in the video which is for sale.

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/dodge/unspecified/1890594.html

 

The Canadian dollar is much cheaper than the US dollar, about 1/3 cheaper, which means you can get better bargains in Canada. I don't know anything about this particular car but it is cheaper than the one in the video.

 

I am not so familiar with the earlier straight eight Chryslers. But I have faith in Chrysler engineering. I am sure in its day the 31 roadster  was as good as any car in its class and better than most. Sorry I don't know any more than that.

 

I saw this one, but it has only 82 HP, were you speak from 116 to 120. Therefore I did not mention it. Plus I feel to young to drive this car.

 

What do you think of this 1937 Plymouth, here in Belgium? I just found it. No information about the engine horsepower. Is it whith the good type of engine you think? I can easily have a look at it.

 

Thanks again for replying all my questions.

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

That is a nice looking car. The convertible will not be as strong or rigid as a sedan and will not have as much room. But if you insist on an open car that would be a good choice.

 

NO Plymouth or Dodge came with a Chrysler engine, but a Chrysler engine can be fitted. Canadian made Plymouths and Dodges 1937 up used the same block as Chrysler with a smaller bore and stroke. I was suggesting that you get a Chrysler engine, rebuild it and install in your car for extra power. If you like I can tell you where to get one already rebuilt.

 

I was assuming any car you buy will need to be extensively rebuilt and modified, at least that is what you implied.

[Rusty_OToole]

Perhaps I should explain about the Plymouth-Dodge-DeSoto-Chrysler engines.

 

They all featured six cylinder flathead engines. From 1937 up, American made cars came with 2 different engines. The Plymouth/Dodge engine was 23 1/4" (590mm) long, measured at the head. It was made in various versions from 201 to 230 cu in (3.2L to 3.7L) and used in cars and trucks up to 1959.

 

DeSoto and Chrysler six got a larger engine measuring 25" (640mm) long. It was made in sizes from 228 to 265 cu in ( 3.7L to 4.3L). It is the 250 and 265 cu in versions that make 116 and 120HP.

 

The Canadian factory only got one engine, the larger one. They made various sizes from 1938 to 1959. This is why all Canadian made cars can fit the larger engine easily, they came with it in the first place. The larger engine can also be fitted to the American made cars but you must move the radiator and motor mounts forward.

 

The best version was the post war engine with full flow oil filtration, larger displacement and horsepower. They are practically the same in appearance as the smaller engines, only an expert can tell them apart.

 

With 7.5:1 compression they will run happily on 75 octane gasoline. They have a good reputation for reliability  in cars, trucks, as industrial and marine engines and in farm equipment. They have a life of 80,000 miles between overhauls even in severe duty, provided they are serviced regularly.

[Larry Schramm]

10 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

If your English mechanic thinks he knows better than the engineers at Chrysler you need a better car, or a better mechanic. Ask him which car company does not make basic mistakes in design, and buy one of theirs. Do not buy a car made by people too dumb to get the basics right even with a team of engineers, full laboratory and research facilities, thousands of miles on the test track and millions of miles of customer beta testing to go by.

 

I just love the people in the field (post engineering, testing, factory) who think that they can design a car better than the factory.  Not to say that "things" don't happen, but the resources to properly designed and factory delivered car are enormous.  They were designed and  built for long term durability, drivability, and over performance.   

[Rusty_OToole]

Especially in a case like this where reliable service under rugged conditions is the number one concern. It reminds me of a story by a man who makes long distance speed records in modern vehicles on primitive roads. He said the stock factory equipment never fails it is always the aftermarket accessories.

[DavidAU]

You may like to read up on this Australian guy who has been in the Peking to Paris rally twice in his 23/60 Vauxhall called Penny.   He has also driven it throughout Europe, South America and Asia on rally's and endurance drives to places most people have never even heard of.   It may be worth trying to contact him as I'm sure he could give you a few pointers.

 

The car is usually sent back to Australia after each "adventure" to be checked and repaired if necessary and then loaded into its container and shipped to wherever the next drive will be.

I believe he carries very few spares in the car as they add more weight and has managed to carry out any necessary repairs in transit to keep the car going.  I imagine $US will repair just about anything. 

 

http://www.adventuresofpenny.com/about-penny/ 

http://www.adventuresofpenny.com/category/peking-to-paris-2016/

[Grimy]

Last month a mutual friend introduced me to a very interesting and affable man who is a past and future Peking-to-Paris competitor, and we visited the shop preparing his car for the 2019 (as I recall) P-to-P.  The car is a late '30s convertible sedan, approx. 126" wheelbase,  which has been gutted, tubular reinforcing and rollbar added, cross-country HD shocks added to the factory equipment, dual (redundant) fuel cells and pumps in the trunk replacing the original tank, HD wheels with what I would call "major mudder" tires fitted, new dash with many gauges and rally instruments added, Recaro seats, and the list goes on and on and on.  IMHO, there is no way that these modifications can EVER be reversed and the car re-restored.  The engine is stock *in appearance* (but with internal tweaks) except for dual carbs on a period aftermarket manifold, and a modern high performance ignition system.  A 1980s/90s truck floor shift transmission and a more modern rear differential have been installed.  The body is stock on the outside except for the appearance of the wheels.  All work is of exceptional quality, and I'll wager his investment will be twice as much as a professional show restoration of the same car.  These gents are very SERIOUS! 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Grimy
removed a duplicated word (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I'll back Rusty up on the flat head Mopar six.  I drove one in HS and although not across china, teenagers have a way of stressing engines.  Never a single problem, they have a great reputation for reliability.

[Ozstatman]

About 2 years ago during the Australian Packard Club's National Rally we visited a private collection where among the cars was a Mustang(I know, not the type of car being considered) which suffered a broken rear axle during the course of one of these Rallies. They weren't carrying a spare, how many different spares can you carry? But he was able to get it "re-welded" by a Mongolian blacksmith, in the middle of nowhere, after it broke. And re-welded, in this instance, means heating up the two pieces of axle then forging them together on an anvil. Was able to finish the Rally then, sometime later, replaced the still functioning re-welded axle with a spare.

 

And, DavidAU, I saw "Penny" on a trailer in the yard of another Vauxhall owner in November 2012 before it was shipped off to the Great South American Challenge 2013.

[Rusty_OToole]

Re: the welded axle. It is surprising what can be accomplished by a good blacksmith. You remind me of a story by a pioneer motorist, date about 1905. He broke a fender bracket while touring New England. A country blacksmith took some time from making horse shoes to weld the bracket, for which he charged 25 cents. The motorist asked how long the repair will last. The blacksmith said "it will either break in the first five miles or last 100 years. There is no way to tell which".

[Ozstatman]

The blacksmith said "it will either break in the first five miles or last 100 years. There is no way to tell which".

 

Wonder if the car and bracket survived a 100 years!

Edited March 20, 2017 by Ozstatman (see edit history)

[Ivan Saxton]

If he were still about, one of the greatest transcontinental drivers/travellers, Francis Birtles, might have different opinions.  His first trip across Australia, from west to east by car was done with a Brush, largely without roads.  It was simple enough they could fix about anything needed.  It was economical, resilient, and light enough to push if they needed to.  First time he did the trip was earlier, on a push bike.  And he cycled round the perimeter of Australia, more than once.  He is credited with creating the first cycling shorts from trousers.  Tell that to the lycra road-lice that are a constant slow-moving road-block on narrow local roads.   Later he favoured the English Bean car, which was efficient, good quality, and not excessive.   From south into the northern territory he also used Model T and A Fords. Once the engine of the A ford died, and they spent time salvaging the power unit from a derelict and abandoned early T Ford, Jerry-rigged it in place, and drove back to Melbourne.   Birtles would tell you that it doesn't matter what you use if it is light, economical, and expendable; and you are versatile and adaptable. Your personal competence and qualities may be more important than those of the car.

[DavidAU]

"it doesn't matter what you use if it is light, economical and expendable; and you are versatile and adaptable."

 

I would certainly agree with Ivan on that.

I think the weight of a straight eight engine alone would rule it right out.  A smaller engine can make just as much or more HP, be more economical and have less moving parts. 

The suspension on any car doing the P to P will take a terrible pounding so the lighter the engine the better.

 

I also agree with the expendable part.   If the car is badly damaged or irrepairable you should be in a position to be able to just pick up your gear and walk away from it and not worry about it again.

That might not be the case if it was a 4 1/2 litre Bentley or similar but it should apply to most other vehicles.

[alsancle]

Sorry to go off topic, but the weight thing made me think of one of the all time too heavy vehicles for its intended purpose.

 

 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

11 hours ago, Grimy said:

 ...Peking-to-Paris competitor, and we visited the shop preparing his car...  which has been gutted, tubular reinforcing and rollbar added...new dash with many gauges and rally instruments added, Recaro seats...a modern high performance ignition system.  A 1980s/90s truck floor shift transmission and a more modern rear differential have been installed.  The body is stock on the outside except for the appearance of the wheels....

 

Grimy, that competing car sounds just like a resto-rod.

If all those changes are allowed, as they evidently are,

the Peking-to-Paris race is no longer a test of old cars'

endurance.  So what's the point of even having the run?

 

I wonder whether the London-to-Brighton run would

accept a curved-dash-Oldsmobile body with a Volkswagen

Beetle chassis and running gear---

[padgett]

The key to longevity of any engine system is to find the weak areas (rpm) and avoid them. My first thought was that 4 speed with a granny first combined with a long (low numerically) axle ratio designed to put any long duration high speed running on the torque peak and know/avoid any harmonics.

 

ps isn't that the Antarctic explorer that was powered by flathead Fords and featured in a Clive Cussler novel ?

[Patrick De]

@Rusty_OToole  and others who are in.

1929 Buick 25 standing here in 'the neighbourhood' . 

Apart from the preparations to do and my personal skills, etc..., 

could this Buick be a good base to start from?

 

 

[Curti]

23 minutes ago, padgett said:

The key to longevity of any engine system is to find the weak areas (rpm) and avoid them. My first thought was that 4 speed with a granny first combined with a long (low numerically) axle ratio designed to put any long duration high speed running on the torque peak and know/avoid any harmonics.

 

ps isn't that the Antarctic explorer that was powered by flathead Fords and featured in a Clive Cussler novel ?

Google Antarctic Snow Cruiser . It was diesel powered  and is now lost.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

I see now you are not interested in anyone else's opinion. You just want to hear your own opinions repeated back to you.

 

Since that is the case, if you like the Buick go ahead and best of luck to you.

[C Carl]

Easy , my esteemed friend Rusty ! Patrick WANTS to learn , but obviously to us old-timers , he has a bit of a learning curve to follow here. (Remember when you "learned me up" re: the low quality/low volatility fuel of the late 'teens - '20s ? That learning you gave me led to research resulting in better running old Cadillacs for me , with the exact understanding of why. Thanks , again , Trusty - but sometimes Crusty - Rusty !). Patrick has had a fundamental breakout here , away from that beautiful but somewhat fatigued one-off day cruiser museum piece. He now has a chance , he needs our help.

 

Patrick , as you see , Rusty has almost 9000 postings. They often are long , analytical , accurate information gained from a lifetime of hands-on experience. Not 9000 simple congratulatory "Nice Car !" comments - NOT to say that we all don't appreciate compliments. Of course we do. But Rusty (along with a GREAT MANY of true world-class experts - several more of whom have already contributed here , others are watching) , takes a lot of his precious time to generously give of his vast knowledge. Believe me , you are in very good hands with us , too bad we were not introduced to you two years ago. Lots of catching up to do , and time is limited. I am old and am in poor health , so it is time to take my meds. I will get back to you , and as a high speed on and off-road long distance 4 wheel drive and two wheel drive (set two long distance speed records in the South American Andes 40 years ago in a bone-stock Toyota Land Cruiser - considered impossible by professional drivers) , wheelman , I have some advice for you. Meds. Gotta go. - Carl

[Patrick De]

2 hours ago, C Carl said:

Easy , my esteemed friend Rusty ! Patrick WANTS to learn , but obviously to us old-timers , he has a bit of a learning curve to follow here. (Remember when you "learned me up" re: the low quality/low volatility fuel of the late 'teens - '20s ? That learning you gave me led to research resulting in better running old Cadillacs for me , with the exact understanding of why. Thanks , again , Trusty - but sometimes Crusty - Rusty !). Patrick has had a fundamental breakout here , away from that beautiful but somewhat fatigued one-off day cruiser museum piece. He now has a chance , he needs our help.

 

Patrick , as you see , Rusty has almost 9000 postings. They often are long , analytical , accurate information gained from a lifetime of hands-on experience. Not 9000 simple congratulatory "Nice Car !" comments - NOT to say that we all don't appreciate compliments. Of course we do. But Rusty (along with a GREAT MANY of true world-class experts - several more of whom have already contributed here , others are watching) , takes a lot of his precious time to generously give of his vast knowledge. Believe me , you are in very good hands with us , too bad we were not introduced to you two years ago. Lots of catching up to do , and time is limited. I am old and am in poor health , so it is time to take my meds. I will get back to you , and as a high speed on and off-road long distance 4 wheel drive and two wheel drive (set two long distance speed records in the South American Andes 40 years ago in a bone-stock Toyota Land Cruiser - considered impossible by professional drivers) , wheelman , I have some advice for you. Meds. Gotta go. - Carl

 

Hi Carl,

thanks for the assistance. I was a bit blown away. Yes, indeed, I want to learn. And I surely highly respect, especially Rusty's effort for explaining all these things to a dude like me in this matter.  I'll try to explain the misunderstanding. I'm 30 years in the car business, with own workshop and since 10 years the only official distributor of the extreme sports car Ariel Atom for Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg. See my website www.debussere.be of youtube channel "Debussere". Having sold more than 6.000 cars, quite a lot for our small country, devided in a Flemisch an French part. Experience in the workshop, on racetrack, rally's etc... But I never had something to do with prewar cars knowing that the oldest car in my collection is a 1954 Arnolt Bristol Bolide.

 

Regarding P2P, I could have registred with eg a 1965 Mercedes Pagoda or 1975 Mercedes 450 SLC.  I know both very well as I have them already mor than a decade in my private collection. Not looking to them but driving them. Last summer more than 1000 miles in Romenia, with their bad roads. Every part of the Mercs you have the day after delivered at your home.They have almost no suprises for me anymore and in every Mercedes garage in the whole world they can order the part you need.  Would have been the most easy for me.

 

But no, I want the challenge of doing it with a car 'as close to the original spirit'. Please don't get this wrong again, a 1920s or 1930's car is to me very close to it. Closer, with almost no brakes or too slow is not an option. 

Knowing a bit about technics on  European modern and classiccars, but knowing nothing about US prewar cars I decided to become member on this forum. 

The reason why is simple. Having looked at all previous participants and the results, you have 2 options. Or you do it with an American car or you have deep pockets and you do it with a Bentley. (for the pre 1941 class)

The cars they have used with good results (e.g Chrysler 72 or 75) I don't find for sale. If I look on search engines for other cars, I'm overwelmed and I half no idea how to select the right ones. And if I contact a dealer his car is always great.

 

In my learning curve I have already put the CD8 already aside, together with all other straight 8's.

I don't find any data regarding the difference in weight between a 1937 Plymouth roadster and a 1929 Buick 25 roadster.

The Plymouth is at 52000 USD , see  http://nl.ww3.autoscout24.be/classified/306239651?asrc=st|as

The Buick is at 42000 USD , see https://www.rpsrally.com/1928-buick-25-price-35000/

So excuse me, I know the difference between a Mercedes and a Renault but I don't have the slightest idea in Amercan cars. 

 

I have reread "Patrick has had a fundamental breakout here , away from that beautiful but somewhat fatigued one-off day cruiser museum piece" , but I honestly don't undstand what you mean about that and what I did wrong.

 

Maybe it would be more easy if I could phone someone? Writing in English takes enourmous time for me and I will understand quicker I hope in a interactive conversation.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

[hidden_hunter]

We have a 1926 buick that spent most of it's working life on a farm up in the Victorian high country, which would have had pretty much no developed roads at the time and temperatures ranging from 0-45c. The buicks were famed for their reliability and reviews back in the day commented on their dependability (you can use to http://trove.nla.gov.au/ search for old newspapers which contain reviews)

[C Carl]

Hi Patrick ! Hey , no , you have not done anything WRONG , you did something RIGHT ! "Breakout" in the context here means to have  discarded fundamentally flawed fixated thinking. That is why I jumped in to compliment your wisdom , and rational hunger for knowledge. No , indeed you are doing EVERYTHING right , considering all the factors we have come to understand so far. Considering that unique , exquisitely bodied CD8 for a punishing and brutal end is a heartbreaking vision for most of us. But I have some doubts about the Buick. Having gone to the website and read their description of that car , I will elaborate more on this later , but you have evolved to the wise position of looking at cars which have at least been partially prepared for the task. 

 

I believe I was the first or second view of your topic. I had a very heavy long day ahead of me , so I left it to others until now. My intent was to start by getting much more information about you and your team. As others here , I was horrified by the prospect of the damage that might be inflicted on the Chrysler. You are certainly going in the right direction now. I had earlier thought about your getting a car from the U.S.A. which had been prepared for "The Great Race" here. That is not the level of preparation you will need for P to P but it is a start. Carrera Panamericana , and Mille Miglia neither are the level of preparation you will need.

 

I have to run out to deal with a fairly fast car of mine (2002 Cadillac Seville STS) right now. When I get back I can continue. I fully understand the language difficulties. I could only speak English until starting to study Spanish at about age 13. After 4 years of study , I was able to live in Spain and Latin America for over 7 years. You are doing very well , and are willing to put in the significant effort.

 

Go easy on Patrick , guys ! He is about to do something we all wish we could do. If we all help him , perhaps he will take us along for the ride as he posts his progress ! Thank you , Patrick for letting us help with the planning !  Back soon , - Carl

[Patrick De]

8 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I see now you are not interested in anyone else's opinion. You just want to hear your own opinions repeated back to you.

 

Since that is the case, if you like the Buick go ahead and best of luck to you.

 

Hi Rusty,

I really do appreciate your opinion! I went looking for the car you proposed and I looked if they have it in convertible or roadsters. This stays a must for me. But I'm not really fond of this model.

Today I'm going to have a look to the Plymouth roadster. Is there any chance that I could have a word with you on the phone afterwards?

Thanks.

[Rusty_OToole]

You should be talking to someone with experience of the PtoP rallye. I did a web search and found the ad you took the pictures from. It says the Buick is already rallye prepared to a certain extent. You should test drive it along with someone with more rallye experience. It may be the ride you want as long as you don't expect too much of it.

 

I don't even know the rules. Slower speeds should be expected of the older participants. If they are handicapped in this way the Buick may stand a chance of winning. You suggested you were out for the experience more than to win, if you take it easy you greatly increase your chances of finishing.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Patrick De]

4 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

You should be talking to someone with experience of the PtoP rallye. I did a web search and found the ad you took the pictures from. It says the Buick is already rallye prepared to a certain extent. You should test drive it and ask someone with more rallye experience. It may be the ride you want as long as you don't expect too much of it.

 

Ok, On what levels I could be disappointed? I spoke Simon already and I will visit him the 5th of April in his workshop to see and try the car and to talk about rallye preparation.

Meanwhile I go to an auction in his neighbourhood were they sell some nice pre war cars. 

http://www.brightwells.com/classic-motoring/bicester-classic-vintage/bicester-classic-vintage-april-2017/bicester-catalogue-5th-april/

 

But first tomorrow the Plymouth

 

Regarding the weight, I don't find much about that. Which one is the lightest in his original shape and will it be a big difference?

 

Thanks!

[Rusty_OToole]

I didn't say you would be disappointed. But if you are used to cars of the seventies and newer you might expect too much of a twenties car. A car like the 29 Buick is at its best around 45MPH. Over 50 is pushing it. If you push it for 8000km  it will probably break. A 1939 car would be capable of at least 10MPH more than a 1929 car. After all there is such a thing as progress.

 

That is why I suggest you road test the car and take along someone experienced in the rallye you wish to drive. They will know far better than you or I what is required and whether that car is capable of doing what you expect of it.

[C Carl]

Patrick , please find out about any suspension modifications on the Buick. Springs ? Shock absorbers ? Brakes ? Steering damper ? 

Axle truss ? The lack of an axle truss means the car has a very low level of preparation. Tires. This is one of the most important factors you must deal with. Give us a very thorough report with as much detail as possible on the existing tires on the car. The tires should be special radial off road tires which can be adjusted for road conditions. Another tip to determine the seriousness of the preparation is the instrumentation. Can you get a high definition pic of the instrument panel ? 

 

So late now that I must sleep. Let us see what tomorrow brings. I hope we can find a car which has been prepared for such a contest of hard use.   - Carl

[Rusty_OToole]

Carl here is the ad for the Buick. You see it is said to be rally prepped and ready for anything. Boy wouldn't that be great. Probably sales talk but who knows. That is why I suggest having it gone over by a rally expert.

 

https://www.rpsrally.com/1928-buick-25-price-35000/

 

The other point is the car's capabilities as built. As I said before there is such a thing as progress and development in cars. The Buick may have been state of the art in 1929 but that meant a top speed of about 70 which it could hold for short distances and a safe cruising speed of 45 or so.

 

Then there is the question of 88 years of age,  wear, and metal fatigue.

 

If the buyer insists on an open car from the twenties and must have it right now, and must pick from whatever is advertised in Europe today, this may be as good as he is going to get.

 

PS I notice the Buick has no top and no luggage rack. Two things I would want on a trip like that. Wonder what happened to the top. If they didn't throw away the frame the canvas is replaceable. If the frame is gone you could make a new one of steel tubing that would be permanently up. This is the way a lot of touring car tops were made in the period, if you wanted one that folded down it cost extra.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Guest BillP]

Patrick, you are asking for opinions, here is mine.

 

If I decided I wanted to do this rally, I would want to have complete faith in every nut, bolt and system in the vehicle I am entrusting not only my entertainment to, but also my life. I would decide on a vehicle brand, type and age range, which you are narrowing down. My preference is for closed cars for peace of mind and weather protection, but I guess that is a choice. 

 

I would not be especially concerned with the condition, as long as it was fairly complete and that the missing or completely ruined parts could be rebuilt, replicated or replaced. In fact, a car in shabby, run-down condition is a plus as it leaves more money to do the required preparation. For example, that Buick at US$44,000 is pretty, but not suited for the way I would approach this exercise.

 

I would drag the hulk to my shop and totally disassemble it and inspect in detail all the parts for wear, breakage or other signs of weakness. I would pay particular attention to the frame, steering, brakes and suspension. Equal scrutiny would be applied to all other mechanical and electrical systems. Speaking of open versus closed, I would, in the case of my theoretical closed car, install much bracing to the body and frame (obscure if the rules don't like it) to provide structural rigidity and a modicum of rollover protection. Proper, supportive seats and restraints would be installed. Essentially, you are building a heavy-duty, low/moderate speed third world race truck.

 

I would have the engine, trans and diff rebuilt to a very high, very careful race car standard but with nothing extraordinary, i.e., use standard cam profile, small carburetor and low compression. Bullet-proof reliability and operation in extreme conditions is the goal.

 

I would repair, replace and improve everything that looked weak or suspect. I would build this hulk into a robust, strong, reliable, stable, comfortable  and trustworthy machine. I would test the hell out of it on local roads, adverse conditions, at high and low speeds. I would find and correct all faults;mechanical, electrical, operating and operator-comfort related.

 

If after all this, you have time and money sufficient to blow on some paint, go ahead.

 

Now I would have a vehicle that I built, or had built under my close supervision and I would know in detail what I had. For competition work of any kind where I am wagering my life or at least being stranded in a remote, potentially dangerous location, I don't buy off the shelf.

 

I have been down this road with old sports cars. An old adage applies: To finish first, you must first finish.

[Paul Dobbin]

This first requirement on a rally is to have a vehicle that can finish the rally. In the Great American Race we all operated on the theory, "To Finish Is To Win". Therefore, choosing a car for it's sporty look may be a receipt for disaster.
I'm with those who recommend the early 30's Chrysler 8's as a good choice. Here is my reasoning:
Ted Holden's 1935 Chrysler Airflow finished 3rd in the old car division of the Peking to Paris Rally.
It did this AFTER competing in 13 Great American Races and being dubbed the GAR Endurance Champion before retiring after the 1995 Ottawa to Mexico City GNAR. (Great north American Race)
In the early years we had a pit crew, after about 4 years we decided that I, the navigator, could fix it if it broke and we went un-supported. Then when Bill Secrest borrowed the car for the Peking to Paris Rally, he and his daughter went without a pit crew. What a car!

[Rusty_OToole]

Paul - I agree completely. Am pleased that someone with your experience and credentials sees things the way I do.

 

The reason I suggested a 1937 or  38 Dodge over the Airflow is that they are cheaper and easier to get, just as good, and the last Chrysler product sold with a solid front axle. But the Airflow is also a good choice, if not as cheap or easy to work with.

 

I also like the 1937 up Chrysler six because they are a tough powerful well proven motor, and parts are cheap and easy to get. Much easier than the Chrysler eight or earlier sixes.

 

We have been all over this and the OP does not agree. He does not want to do it the easy way. He prefers an open car, from an earlier design era. And it must be a car that is advertised for sale, right now, in Europe. So far a 1929 Buick touring seems to be the leading contender.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

BillP- I agree with you too. Your approach is very much the way I would do it, except I would pay a little more for a car with good paint chrome and upholstery. These things are expensive and time consuming to do, and it would be easier just to buy a car that is good cosmetically. But whatever car i bought I would expect to tear it apart completely and rebuild to racing specs.

[Guest BillP]

I'm a flathead Mopar fan as well as seen at left.

 

Here's an open car, not a Mopar, that did fairly well.

 

https://klemcoll.wordpress.com/2015/05/28/ak-millers-caballo-di-hierro/