Total front end suspension rebuild

[kreed]

I am doing a frame off on my 65 GS and now at the point of pricing out all new front end suspension . Got a quote today from local parts store for $2400 ! Does not include steering gear box or center link.I about fell off my chair ! Am I being totally delusional that this  is crazy ? What does anyone else recommend ? Thanks 

Ken Reed

ROA 14549

[JZRIV]

Ken,

My you are a busy man.

Can you list what parts you had quoted? I am trying to wrap my head around $2400. Did that include installation? kidding. Doesn't seem possible. Should be 1/3 that or less

 

I spent hours price/quality shopping on suspension parts and bought from RockAuto, CARs, Kanter, and NAPA and Classic Buicks. No one stop shop. I found a wild range of prices for same parts. 

[KongaMan]

What do you mean by "all new front end"?  That is, which specific parts are you replacing? 

 

Off the top of my head, you've got:

- UCA bushings*

- UCA bumper*

- LCA bushings*
- LCA bumper*

- upper ball joints*

- lower ball joints*

- reaction rod bushings

- springs

- spring isolators

- tie rod ends*

- tie rods

- tie rod clamps

- stabilizer links*

- stabilizer bushings*

- idler arm

- shocks
 

Anything else?

 

There are several vendors who offer front end rebuild kits which include all the parts marked with an * for ~$250.  That's about half the price of buying them by the piece.  The other parts a generally cheap; the major expenses would be center link, gearbox, and springs.  Even with those parts, you won't sniff $2400.  You might even do a sanity check first, as it's not a given that everything needs to be replaced.

 

If you're looking for new springs, consider Coil Springs Specialties.  They can dial you up some new springs that are customized for both stiffness and height.  If you're going to be changing/rebuilding the gearbox, you might consider changing to a quick ratio or variable ratio box for a more responsive feel.

 

If you're doing the front end, you'll probably be doing the rear as well.  Wait until you price the 6(!) rear control arm bushings.

[RivNut]

Center links are unobtainium. If you need one about all you can do is try to have yours rebuilt.  Need rear control arms bushings?  There's an article in the Riview that tells the part number and how to make your own for cheap.

[kreed]

Thanks for the quick reply. The list above by Kongaman is basically what I ask for minus shocks , springs and spring isolators. It did include the rear control arm bushings . I have seen the rebuild kits on EBay ranging in price from $300-600 and that is why I was so shocked on a piece by piece price from  OReilley's which they stated were all US made and guaranteed  . My concern is do they cheaper ones actually fit well or simply cheap junk that would wear out or malfunction after 500 miles . Don't mind paying for quality but don't ant to get ripped off . 

Yes Ed - pretty busy . Wrapping up the '72 , and finally getting started in earnest on the 65 . Body in primer  and frame on rotisserie ready to be blasted but lots of work ahead over winter. Engine and transmission going out later this week for rebuild and tidying up . Bank account going steadily down . LOL

Ken 

ROA 14549

[alini]

I just checked my records, I replaced all the bushings front and rear, ball joints, tie rods, all the brake hardware (shoes, hoses cylinders) and had my aluminum drums media blasted all for under $1900.   This did not include a steering gearbox  but it did include new springs from coilspringspecialties.com  with a 2 inch drop at all four corners.

[kreed]

That sounds more like it . Do you recall where you got all your suspension parts from and were you satisfied ? Thanks 

Ken ROA 14549

[kreed]

2 hours ago, JZRIV said:

Ken,

My you are a busy man.

Can you list what parts you had quoted? I am trying to wrap my head around $2400. Did that include installation? kidding. Doesn't seem possible. Should be 1/3 that or less

 

I spent hours price/quality shopping on suspension parts and bought from RockAuto, CARs, Kanter, and NAPA and Classic Buicks. No one stop shop. I found a wild range of prices for same parts. 

Thanks Jason - that price was parts only . Suspect labor would be another $300-400 minimum . I will check tommorow with folks listed above . 

Ken 

ROA 14549

[alini]

Every part I ever bought for the car was from oldbuickparts.com  or  the local parts store. 

I did get all the rubber seals for the body from rubbertherightway.com    

I got the springs from coilspringspecialties.com    

All my core engine pieces (pistons, cam, lifters, etc) from Summit  

All my interior pieces are from Clarks corvair   

and the exhaust was from Waldron's Exhaust.

 

I also did all my own body work, all those supplies...filler, primer, paint and clear came from Eastwood.com   This included the paint I used on the frame and underbody

 

 

Edited December 8, 2016 by alini
added info (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

It so happens I went through this same exercise a couple of months ago.  These are the part numbers and prices from CARS.  Other vendors are about the same.  Chain stores have some of these items.  Some are in the ballpark, some are much higher.  A couple (e.g. front springs from AutoZone) are way cheap.

 

		GM part #	CARS part
- UCA bushings		1363907	BK543-4		$39.50
- LCA bushings		1196337	LAB610-4		$49.50
- upper ball joint			UBJ630-4		$59.50
- lower ball joint		5679480	LBJ630-4		$59.50
- UCA bumper		1362014	UB651-4		$11.75
- LCA bumper		1356667	LB615-4		$9.75
- tie rod end		5679834	TE-624-4		$29.75
- stabilizer link kit			SK373-4		$11.75
					$552.50
- Front end kit			FEK635S-4		$246.50
- stabilizer bar bushings			SB616-4		$11.75
- reaction rod bushing		1355667	BRK638-4		$22.25
- idler arm			IA636-4		$29.00
- tie rod
- front springs
- spring isolator		1305013	SI381-4		$15.25

[kreed]

Thanks so much - that's more like it . I will check it out today . 

Ken Reed 

ROA 14549

[60FlatTop]

So, just to get it straight, you bought the 50 year old car, but didn't feel delusional until AFTER you took it apart and priced the components?

 

Here's the beginning of mine. I have no idea of how much I spent. That was a little over 20 years ago and it started by tidying up the wiring harness.

 

[EmTee]

On 12/8/2016 at 10:31 AM, 60FlatTop said:

"...it started by tidying up the wiring harness."

 

That's my biggest fear when I think about replacing the timing set in my Riviera this winter!  

[alini]

On 12/8/2016 at 7:31 AM, 60FlatTop said:

So, just to get it straight, you bought the 50 year old car, but didn't feel delusional until AFTER you took it apart and priced the components?

 

Here's the beginning of mine. I have no idea of how much I spent. That was a little over 20 years ago and it started by tidying up the wiring harness.

 

 

I wish I had your space.....I did my entire rebuild in a two car garage and my kitchen table

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PWB]

31 minutes ago, alini said:

 

I wish I had your space.....I did my entire rebuild in a two car garage and my kitchen table

 

Now that's a feat! That deck is good enough for a waxing. Impressive.

How much for the dart board?

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: Rare Parts in Stockton, CA is fantastic.  I had a pair of center links rebuilt at $275 each.  I also purchased the inner and outer tie rod ends with sleeves.  All prices were very competitive with other outfits and.....I trust their quality!!   Mitch

[alini]

5 hours ago, PWB said:

Now that's a feat! That deck is good enough for a waxing. Impressive.

How much for the dart board?

 

No true garage is complete without a dart board

 

[EmTee]

14 hours ago, alini said:

 

No true garage is complete without a dart board

 

 

...that and a pad of Post-it-Notes.  How else to decide which task to tackle next?  

[Guest Kaber]

I bought a full front end kit, for my sons 63, from PST for under $500. No box/center link but everything else, including inner tie rod ends. Its been in service 3 years now with no complaints. It wasn't listed in their paper catalog, only on line.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Kaber (see edit history)

[PWB]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 11:33 PM, kreed said:

Thanks Jason - that price was parts only . Suspect labor would be another $300-400 minimum . I will check tommorow with folks listed above . 

Ken 

ROA 14549

 

 

Hey - you gonna install that supah fine Recaro in dat Riv???    joking, nice shop!

 

 

[60FlatTop]

I rebuilt a center link for a '62 Electra I had. I figured if they were offered rebuilt I could do it too.

Each of the swivel joints had a spot welded round plug and seat behind it. A die grinder will take the weld off and a light push in a press or large vice will take out the swivel. In my instance there was little wear in the socket. My play was due to the aged nylon along the taper. I bought some teflon type 3/4" tubing at a plastic supply house and cut new sleeves, about 1" long, slid them over, cleaned it all, and reassembled. I used a low amp Heli-arc to hold the caps back in place, lubed it up, and everything was tight and it handled well. If I had found wear in the balls or sockets I would have taken a new tie rod end apart and used them.

Remember, if they can do it, you can do it. The centerlink fairy didn't come along and wave a wand saying "Poof! You can rebuild center links."

 

I have fixed a lot of user non-servicable items. Well, fixed more than I broke... I think.

 

On my garage, I had it built in 1988. I was going to get a 24X24 and add on in the future. My Wife said "For the age you are (40), you better get what you want." It is 26 X 40. The 26 gives you enough room for three cars and getting the door open on the last one you park.

Bernie

[EmTee]

On 12/13/2016 at 10:36 AM, 60FlatTop said:

It is 26 X 40. The 26 gives you enough room for three cars and getting the door open on the last one you park.

 

The attached "2-car" garage at my previous house was 20' x 20' --what a joke!  Maybe 2 Toyotas...

When I built the attached 1-car garage for my wife at my current home I made it 16' x 24'.  She can open all 5 doors and still walk around the car.  Still leaves room for assorted patio furniture, gardening tools, snowblower and such.

Edited December 16, 2016 by EmTee (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Just two feet beyond the typical, a friend had a 24 X 40 garage and told me if he did it again he'd add the 2'. Even I take advice sometimes.

Bernie

[anestech*]

On 12/13/2016 at 3:22 AM, Kaber said:

I bought a full front end kit, for my sons 63, from PST for under $500. No box/center link but everything else, including inner tie rod ends. Its been in service 3 years now with no complaints. It wasn't listed in their paper catalog, only on line.

any idea if that PST stuff is made in the USA?

[KongaMan]

Doubtful.  If you want American, scour eBay for old stock.  You can also send your stuff to Rare Parts to be rebuilt.  They will overhaul ball joints, tie rod ends, etc.  I asked if they would preserve the cap with the Saginaw S stamp, but they wouldn't commit to that.

 

IIRC, outer tie rod ends and lower ball joints are still production items -- presumably made in USA, but who knows?  Inner tie rod ends, upper ball joints, and idler arms (such as sold by CARS, etc.) are of uncertain origin.  I've asked and they won't tell/don't know.

 

If you buy something from Rare Parts that's not listed as part of their Diamond Series, you're likely going to get USA overstock of various origin (i.e. not something that they made).  That is, you may get Moog, you may get McQuay-Norris, you may get TRW, etc.  If you order two of something, they say they try to send matched parts (e.g. two Moog inner tie rods).

[NC1968Riviera]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 9:52 PM, kreed said:

Thanks for the quick reply. The list above by Kongaman is basically what I ask for minus shocks , springs and spring isolators. It did include the rear control arm bushings . I have seen the rebuild kits on EBay ranging in price from $300-600 and that is why I was so shocked on a piece by piece price from  OReilley's which they stated were all US made and guaranteed  . My concern is do they cheaper ones actually fit well or simply cheap junk that would wear out or malfunction after 500 miles . Don't mind paying for quality but don't ant to get ripped off . 

Yes Ed - pretty busy . Wrapping up the '72 , and finally getting started in earnest on the 65 . Body in primer  and frame on rotisserie ready to be blasted but lots of work ahead over winter. Engine and transmission going out later this week for rebuild and tidying up . Bank account going steadily down . LOL

Ken 

ROA 14549

I bought my front end rebuild kit for my 68 from P-S-T. It had all of the correct bushings, tie rod ends and ball joints. The reaction rod bar bushings in the 68 kit were for the 69-70 Riv. I had to go to the auto parts store to get the correct RR bushings.

I am not sure about the source of where their parts are manufactured but the fit and finish were spot on for my car.

I was lucky enough to find an NOSR center link at a very reasonable price on eBay.

[Seafoam65]

                      In my shop I've seen people who've installed Chinese ball joints that were completely wasted after being on the car

for only six months. These would be the house brand that O'reilly and Autozone etc. sell. Moog parts have now become questionable, as they

were bought out by a Billionaire a couple of years ago and now their parts are made in many different foreign countries. It is common to buy two Moog

ball joints for the same application now that don't look anything alike because they were made by different suppliers. About 9 months ago I had to change out

a Moog ball joint that was flopping loose that I had installed less than a year before. My 65 Riviera with 59,000 original miles on it has 

all of it's original front end parts and they are still tight and I would be very leery to replace them with what is out there, especially the ball joints.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

On 12/7/2016 at 8:42 PM, kreed said:

I am doing a frame off on my 65 GS and now at the point of pricing out all new front end suspension . Got a quote today from local parts store for $2400 ! Does not include steering gear box or center link.I about fell off my chair ! Am I being totally delusional that this  is crazy ? What does anyone else recommend ? Thanks 

Ken Reed

ROA 14549

Ken, My lower ball joints were $180. For the pair. All the rubber bushings, sway bars, Bilstein shocks, rebuilt steering box, clean oil replace seals came to about $2000. Plus or minus 5%.

That was front and back repair or replace .

i think your quote is high, but I could be wrong.

Turbinator

[vintage1]

Checkout the Buick page and Steering/Suspension page on https://www.vintagepartsource.com

 

[RockinRiviDad]

Buyer beware. 
DON’T buy from Kanter!! Here’s my Kanter ball joints UCA bushings after only 6k miles. That’s when the pic was taken. But they weren’t any better at 2k miles (maybe just cleaner 😆 ). Now I gotta year the entire front end apart…AGAIN… TERRIBLE!! 
 

 

 

[KongaMan]

You don't need to tear the whole front end apart to replace the upper ball joint. Pull the wheel, break the ball joint loose from the spindle (but don't remove the nut), put the wheel back on, put the car on the ground, then pull the control arm from the top.  Yeah, it's still a PITA, but at least you don't have to mess with the springs.

 

And yeah, I would fire up on Kanter about that.  Dunno if torn boots means the ball joints themselves are bad, but it doesn't inspire confidence.  If you're feeling lucky, maybe you can find new (better) boots.  Trouble is, the upper ball joint is not a stock item thess days.  The only people who carry them are the specialty suppliers (who probably all get them from the same Chinese factory) and Rare Parts (who will charge you an arm and a leg for refurbed or overstock parts).

[Seafoam65]

Yep, you've got   Chinese ball joints......you will find that the ball and socket are wasted too, not just the boots. The reason

they don't sell Chinese cars in America is that the ball joints collapse before they can get them on the boat!

[KongaMan]

The upper ball joints were not originally a replacement item from Buick.  That is, they were sold as an assembly with the upper control arm.  As a result, it's unclear to what degree they were ever available as a standalone part from Moog, TRW, etc.

 

If you have the old ball joints, Rare Parts will rebuild them for you.  IIRC, the cost is the same they charge for "new" parts; something like $85 each.  The advantage of doing that (expensive as it may be) is that you know what you're using for a core.  If you buy one of their off the shelf parts (which is often just another part they've rebuilt), you don't know what they started with.  To that point, I bought a pair of inner tie rod ends from Rare Parts for the 64.  One had standard threads, the other had metric(!) threads.  No idea what was going on there.

[RockinRiviDad]

23 hours ago, KongaMan said:

You don't need to tear the whole front end apart to replace the upper ball joint. Pull the wheel, break the ball joint loose from the spindle (but don't remove the nut), put the wheel back on, put the car on the ground, then pull the control arm from the top.  Yeah, it's still a PITA, but at least you don't have to mess with the springs.

 

And yeah, I would fire up on Kanter about that.  Dunno if torn boots means the ball joints themselves are bad, but it doesn't inspire confidence.  If you're feeling lucky, maybe you can find new (better) boots.  Trouble is, the upper ball joint is not a stock item thess days.  The only people who carry them are the specialty suppliers (who probably all get them from the same Chinese factory) and Rare Parts (who will charge you an arm and a leg for refurbed or overstock parts).

THX for the tip. So the weight of the car will keep pressure on coil spring & it won’t move? Makes sense.

 

My mistake, I thought I posted a pix of upper & lower ball joints. All 4 are bad. If your theory is correct on the weight of car holding spring in place then I can replace all 4 at the same time. Cool tip. 

 

I will call Rare Parts. If they rebuild ball joints maybe they will sell me just the boots? I don’t have my originals. Threw them away long ago. 
 

Kanter did work with me. They sent me universal replacement boots that looked like they came from the HELP section at Pep Boys. AND they are too small 🤷🏻‍♂️. They wouldn’t sell me new boots off of their ball joints on the shelf, they wouldn’t sell me completes at a discounted rate & they would tell me where they got their ball joints so could call them for boots. 

[60FlatTop]

Years ago I bought a "front end rebuild package" for my wife's '65 Electra daily driver. Each part came in it's own plain brown box and the quality was very low. Since then I have always asked what name is on the box. If they can't tell me I move along.

 

If you know the MOOG numbers you can keep a search running on Ebay and buy the parts as they come along. I did that with the '48 Packard I had a few years ago and had all the pieces set aside for around $200.

Bernie