Car Restoration has become an Engineering Addiction

[Mark Gregory]

Has anyone else experienced this addiction while restoring their car ? I own a 1931 Reo Royale Victoria and all the wood is rotted out . I started replacing the wood sills , back seat wood 

and now doing the the roof bows . When I consider all the wood working tricks I am doing like installing a router horizontally on my B pillars . To create a lap joint to replace the bottom 6 inches of rotted wood that sits on the sill . The roof bows required all sorts of jigs I had to make . I still have the car doors wood to replace and wood trunk to make for the back of the car . Then I am finished all the creativity to make the wood parts and just have to assemble the parts on to the car .

Edited December 7, 2016 by Mark Gregory (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

Sounds more like the desire to do it right. Post a before picture, those are great looking cars. 

[alsancle]

Mark,  you should post some progress pictures to the Royale forum or the thread down in CCCA.  I'm sure everybody would love to see your work.  Restoration is not for the faint of heart!

[Gary_Ash]

For every part we have to recreate, we need to understand the technology of how it was made originally.  There are many things that can be done "easily" when you want to make 10,000 or 1,000,00 parts that are extremely difficult when you only need to make one or just a few.  Example:  a modern stamping die for even a 12"x12"x4" deep sheet metal part would set you back $10,000 or more, in round numbers.  Then you would have to pay set-up charges and buy 1000 parts or more to make it economical.  But, it is possible to now 3D print a master male die and hydroform a part in a small press using urethane pads.  It's still not cheap, but it is do-able, and for a lot less than machined, hardened steel, matched dies.  With old, rotted wood parts, you can get them 3D scanned and use a CAD-CAM router to cut them out.  It still requires lots of dedication, grunt labor, and cash to get it done.  It is very satisfying to hold the parts in your hand later and install them in the car.

 

I have to admit a certain glow that happens when I can reproduce a part made 60-90 years ago.  I also appreciate the work of others.  Mastering a new skill like precision woodworking is very satisfying. 

I was entranced some years ago when following the work of Mark Keilen and his son Jeff in Attleboro, Mass. when Mark restored a 1938Pontiac woodie from a termite nest and built a second one from scratch as part of the process.  Mark had to buy - and learn to use proficiently - saws, sanders, jointers, planers, etc. to branch out into things that weren't steel body parts.  At least his customer at his restoration shop had a big checkbook, and Mark and Jeff are very skilled people.

    

[Joe in Canada]

 I am going to look at a 15 Reo during the holidays and I am hoping the wood is good in it.

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 8:35 PM, alsancle said:

Mark,  you should post some progress pictures to the Royale forum or the thread down in CCCA.  I'm sure everybody would love to see your work.  Restoration is not for the faint of heart!

 

or the faint of wallet!

[30DodgePanel]

Doing it right involves many sacrifices.... The REO community will be very thankful for years to come for you taking the time to do it right. Kudos to you!

 

I've had family members in recent past who have wanted me to slap some paint on a 1950 Chevy truck and turn it for a profit but it's not in my DNA to do that. Call it OCD or perfectionism but when you take pride in something you tend to put your best effort forward, and that takes time and money especially if you're doing all the work yourself with no financial backing.

 

We can all appreciate your efforts Mark. You're doing the right thing.

 

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I can certainly empathize with you're approach. I've assembled a fairly complete machine shop and largely taught myself how to run the machines in order to restore my 1910 car. It's the only approach I have to getting the car I'd like to have, even though I may be too old to drive it much when I'm done. I suspect the rebuild will take longer than I'll have to enjoy it, but that wasn't really the goal. I see it as a permanent challenge... and I haven't even gotten to the building a body part!

[Coley]

Hi Mark,

Greg Coleman here.  Did you ever get the measurement for the length of the choke cable for the REOs.  I have the  tooling done for the knobs, but need the length of the longest cable to make them up.

 

[Akstraw]

Yes, I definitely know what you are going through!  In replacing all the wood substructure on a Marmon touring car, I not only have to re-create the original wooden components, but assemble them within the original body skin.  That is an additional challenge they didn't face at the factory.  Like building a ship in a bottle at times.  I have learned that in pursuing novel ways to apply power tools, one must never lose sight of good safety practice.  The line between innovative and dumb can be a thin one.  

 

The upside of this type of work is that the lumber is relatively cheap, and if a part doesn't turn out quite right, you can just try again.  On the really complex parts, I experiment with pine, before moving on to hardwood.   Another lesson I have learned is to be sure to analyze and understand the structure of what I am building.  One must avoid just "hanging" wooden parts onto the metal skin, when the wood is meant to bear the load.  This would be a particular concern when the lower part of the body is deteriorated, and the upper is still intact.

 

it has been an interesting journey, and like you, I still have the doors remaining.  Good luck with the rest of your project!

 

Andrew

[Mark Gregory]

Thanks for all the responses .

[chistech]

I started my own small restoration business about 1 1/2 years ago mostly doing late twenties to early thirties GMs. Every single car I've worked on has required wood work even when the owner just thought they could get an interior installed. Once the old interior came out, the wood rot was evident. I am currently working on a 31' Chevy 5 passenger coupe and the front right corner of the roof was rotted. I had to replace the front header, roof bow, top 8" of the door hinge pillar, the end of the side roof rail and end of the side roof bow. All replacement wood was ash and total time to make the parts, fit, bolt up tight to check everything, unbolt, take it all out, poly the wood, reinstall with epoxy, and fasten it all back in was 24hrs total including the front header metal, which was blasted, primed/painted on the inside, and then all nailed down. Before this 31' I did a 30 that needed a new rear roof bow installed along with some pieces on the right rear corner of the roof side rail. Like Mike mentioned, one has to be creative to get the job done correctly. Not only the tools you use but the way the new pieces are fastened in because as mentioned earlier, we are working from the inside out rather than the outside in like these wood frames were originally made. My tools are band and table saw, Roto Zip ( great for routing and removing rotted wood in place with the 1/8 roto blade), hand planes, farrier rasp/files, vertical milling machine, metal lathe, and belt/disk sander. I have been having pretty good luck (but not perfect) with Classic wood getting me some pieces I've needed. Most I've made. Here is a series of pictures from the last restoration work done and the current one I'm doing. The 30' 4dr is the first 8 pics, the 31', all the rest. I still have the lower portion of the passenger side hinge pillar and the outer 2" of the mail sill in the same area to repair. The same leak in the passenger front corner caused all this damage.

[trimacar]

There's a whole separate discussion about what wood to use when replacing original.  From a trimmer's perspective, oak is one of the worst woods to use, it will split quickly when a tack is driven anywhere near an edge or end. 

 

Ash has always been my favorite wood, this is what was used in many cars originally, it works well and will not split easily.  It's getting a little pricey due to the ash borer killing a lot of trees, I just lost two ash trees to the little critters.

 

I'm sure there are other woods that can be used, but the criteria should be tight grained......and oak is not....

[Xander Wildeisen]

Looks good, around here everybody wants the wood removed and replaced with steel. And that can be a tricky at times as well. Here is a 37 Packard trunk lid that the wood was just gone, so all you have is a skin. Braced it to fit the body, marked the opening on the bottom side, made inner braces and a padded foot that touched the center skin, adjustable hinge pockets and mounts for latch and lift arms.

[R Walling]

 The most rewarding thing that I receive when working on restoring cars is the knowing that I can do things alone, or different, then that was done during production.

 

 To take a badly deteriorated part , and with simple hand tools, restore it to a usable condition, brings satisfaction and exercises the mind in a way that is promoting your health in the process.

 

 The end product is not the car, but the rewarding experience.

[Mark Gregory]

Ted looks like you are doing some complicated work there . Xander that is some creative work doing the trunk lid . This is how I did my wood roof rails as they were in the same shape as the wood you are working on . 

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

1 hour ago, Roger Walling said:

 The most rewarding thing that I receive when working on restoring cars is the knowing that I can do things alone, or different, then that was done during production.

 

 To take a badly deteriorated part , and with simple hand tools, restore it to a usable condition, brings satisfaction and exercises the mind in a way that is promoting your health in the process.

 

 The end product is not the car, but the rewarding experience.

I think that is why the street rod/custom side is so big. It allows people to express themselves on the creativity side, that you can not do on the restoration side. Not saying there is no creativity in restorations, but you are redoing what was done. On the custom side, you are doing what you think should have been done.

[keiser31]

2 hours ago, Mark Gregory said:

Ted looks like you are doing some complicated work there . Xander that is some creative work doing the trunk lid . This is how I did my wood roof rails as they were in the same shape as the wood you are working on . 

 

 

[Mark Gregory]

All my roof wood was rotted out and I did this from a picture and making templates . i still have to cut out the contour on the bottom of the bows . I left them straight for ease of drilling and clamping . I even had larger barrel nuts made up to attach the wood together since it was originally mortise and tenon .

[Xander Wildeisen]

You do not by chance have a front wood convertible header bow for a 1947 Hudson convertible do you?

[Mark Gregory]

Sorry Xander I do not have that part . I still have to install my headers I made on my roof bows . 

[chistech]

Doing this type work for customers adds some concerns working on these cars compared to the ones we personally own. What I mean is when working on a customer's car, I can't take forever thinking about how I'm going to accomplish the repair nor can I work a day or two and leave it for a week. Well, I guess some other shops might do that but I will not. I set my personal goals to my customers to give them a quality job, at a quality price, and to finish at the time I estimated, or at least very close. With that said, it's easier to try and stay with what was there rather than design something new. It takes enough time to make the piece as it was made and to reverse engineer the fastening of the piece as it is. The original design worked for these car over all the many miles they traveled. I think now that most of the restored cars will barely make another 5K worth of miles. The original design will work fine. I do have to agree that there are times I step back to look at some of the repairs and I'm pleased I was able to get it done. There is definitely a personal satisfaction in that for me. For any of us to do this kind of work, we are craftsman, whether its a repair using wood or metal. Our type, unfortunately, are going away.

[Xander Wildeisen]

If you are building a custom/street rod, you have no choice but to change some things. This same Packard had wood floor inserts, very hard to redo wood for a 700R4 transmission tunnel. Drive line tunnels, fire wall changes, toe boards, inner fender panels and wheel wells all have to be changes to fit the wants of the owner. 

[chistech]

I'm sorry if you thought I implied anything against the type of work you show above. I completely agree with you. I was implying that lots of times, staying the original way is the best and quickest route for the repair. Custom work like you show is great craftsmanship and very much needed for the applications. I have a friend who lives close to me who does the exact type of metal work you show above. I am lucky that I have many friends and local shops in my immediate area that are artisans in so many of the aspects of our hobby. I just wish I had a plater close by that was more in line with the average costs. Here in New England the cost of chroming seems to be about 50% higher than the heartland of the country. When I get a quote of $2,750 for a radiator shell with an added 6 1/2% sales tax and a 6% waste fee compared to a $1,800-$2000 for the same piece with no tax or waste fees, I can't go local.

[Xander Wildeisen]

I did not think that, there is just not much of a market for restoration work in this area. Most cars around here are turned into resto rods,street rods, hot rods  and customs. Chrome is a tough one around here to. We now have a plater in New Plymouth ID. Back in the 70's we had Wallace plating in Boise, they were dumping their byproducts in to the Boise river by pouring them down the sewer. City found out and capped the sewer main, and put them out of business. Chrome is tough, top notch bright work on a car really pops. You can buy a driver quality car of some makes, for what the chrome can cost on a big 50's car.