Stearns Knight

[Mark66A]

Ed, Sent you a series of emails yesterday.

[alsancle]

28 minutes ago, Mark66A said:

Will a Stromberg SF 3 work as a replacement for a single barrel Tillotson on the 8 cyl Stearns Knight?

 

An SF is a one barrel and some had a accelerator pump so maybe?    Ed and I have talked about using a UUR2 but we either need to make an adapter or find a manifold we can play with.

[edinmass]

5 hours ago, Mark66A said:

Will a Stromberg SF 3 work as a replacement for a single barrel Tillotson on the 8 cyl Stearns Knight?

 

 

I'm going to do something different........🤔

 

I can't say what..........🤫

[alsancle]

I just figured our that I never posted some of these.

 

 

[pughs]

I got the new oil pump gear from Mark Young. Hopefully, it will be cooler at the shop this week and I can drop the pan and replace the gear. Also hopefully, this fixes the "no oil pressure" problem.

 

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, pughs said:

I got the new oil pump gear from Mark Young. Hopefully, it will be cooler at the shop this week and I can drop the pan and replace the gear. Also hopefully, this fixes the "no oil pressure" problem.

 

Mark or Peter or even Ed might want to comment, but I was reading the SK Oiler bulletin and it sounded like the gauge reads next to nothing at idle which admittedly seemed odd to me.

[F&J]

49 minutes ago, alsancle said:

it sounded like the gauge reads next to nothing at idle which admittedly seemed odd to me.

I couldn't help but notice that the gear shown above, has a tooth profile that is not suited for making pressure, it's design makes a certain amount of flow rate instead.

 

That "gear" is not really a gear;  it looks just like some OEM semi/modern (carbureted) electric fuel pumps "impeller".  Those types of fuel pumps have testing specs that only determine GPH/GPM at a given operating speed, and not PSI. 

 

A conventional oil pump gear "tooth profile" traps the developed pressure from backtracking past the teeth because they have a constant mesh at their curved faces.  Constant mesh meaning that as one tooth starts to leave the adjacent tooth and loses it's sealing, the next tooth has already started to seal against it's mating tooth.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, F&J said:

I couldn't help but notice that the gear shown above, has a tooth profile that is not suited for making pressure, it's design makes a certain amount of flow rate instead.

 

That "gear" is not really a gear;  it looks just like some OEM semi/modern (carbureted) electric fuel pumps "impeller".  Those types of fuel pumps have testing specs that only determine GPH/GPM at a given operating speed, and not PSI. 

 

A conventional oil pump gear "tooth profile" traps the developed pressure from backtracking past the teeth because they have a constant mesh at their curved faces.  Constant mesh meaning that as one tooth starts to leave the adjacent tooth and loses it's sealing, the next tooth has already started to seal against it's mating tooth.

 Because of the sleeve valves, and all the extra bearings, the pump works on a volume basis......the spool valve controls flow rate to the lower and upper end, when accelerating it will take pressure from 25 to 80 pounds just by opening the throttle. At sustained high speed, the manual tells you Blip the throttle to provide additional lubrication to the top end. When driving our car last week, with the new valve working properly, the pressure reacts as the book says. I think the intention was to flood the system with oil.......it has a dump at the opposite  end of the engine where the pump is located. Add in the rectifier with its complicated return system, the Stearns oiling system is unique....and challenging. I’m looking forward to finishing up the rest of the system. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

This was the section of the maintenance bulletin I was referring to on the oil pressure.   (Thanks to Mark Young for providing all the SK manuals).

[pughs]

When I started my car, I was only idling the engine. Maybe I should rev it up a little and see if the gauge shows any pressure?

[edinmass]

Steve.....YES! Our car reads low at idle.....lower than I would like. But as soon as your moving it climbs. With modern oil, five pounds of pressure per 1000 rpm is more than enough lubrication to prevent galling. Thr bearing load on the Stearns is well designed, and the oil has no problem removing heat either. I have more to investigate on a special 100 percent synthetic that is smokeless when burned.........it’s 26 bucks a quart.......but if it eliminates ALL smoke, it will be a game changer for any sleeve valve engine. I will NOT disclose the oil brand or name until I speak to the engineer who personally invented the oil back in the late 70’s. Crooked used car dealers would buy the oil, flush a car engine with kerosene........and then add the special oil. Then they would run the car through the auction,,,,,,I have seen it hundreds of times. The five away was the oil looks like ATF as it is bright red. Within eight weeks, I expect that we will have the Brunn oiling system figured out on a permanent basis.
 

Steve, use a pressure pot to prime the engine and take a reading before you tear it apart.

Edited August 30, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, pughs said:

When I started my car, I was only idling the engine. Maybe I should rev it up a little and see if the gauge shows any pressure?

 

 Do you have one of the new oilers?   Where do you have yours set?   This is a picture Al Giddings sent me of his.

[F&J]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

This is a picture Al Giddings sent me of his.

Having that picture really helps explain what Ed was saying about a spool valve and also saying to hit the gas pedal.  That's quite elaborate.

[pughs]

After I got the engine unseized, I took the valve apart. It was unmovable because of old caked-on oil. I cleaned it and put it back together. The metal rod looked fine after I cleaned it and it moves up and down easily when the accelerator is pressed. It is set with the flag pointing forward towards the front of the car.

[edinmass]

You can see the large hole and the holes in the valve......They must be lined up to be correct for the valve to actually function......most of the old timers rotated it 180 to max out oil pressure.....and make the car smoke like hell. I set the valve at max added pressure..........thus the adjuster is low down on the threads. I set up our car to have the flag point towards the firewall. When accelerating the pressure jumps two to three times cruise pressure.....as it should.  

[alsancle]

16 hours ago, F&J said:

I couldn't help but notice that the gear shown above, has a tooth profile that is not suited for making pressure, it's design makes a certain amount of flow rate instead.

 

That "gear" is not really a gear;  it looks just like some OEM semi/modern (carbureted) electric fuel pumps "impeller".  Those types of fuel pumps have testing specs that only determine GPH/GPM at a given operating speed, and not PSI. 

 

A conventional oil pump gear "tooth profile" traps the developed pressure from backtracking past the teeth because they have a constant mesh at their curved faces.  Constant mesh meaning that as one tooth starts to leave the adjacent tooth and loses it's sealing, the next tooth has already started to seal against it's mating tooth.

Frank, here is a picture of the whole unit from Marks AACA article on Stearns.

[edinmass]

1913 New York Auto Show.......Stearns Knight stand.........

[pughs]

After reading the previous posts, I decided to check the oil valve before moving on to the oil pump. I had only removed the piston last time I worked on it and hadn't removed the valve body from the block. Before I removed it, I noticed some slight checking on the pot metal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pughs]

When I cleaned up the part I found that the pot metal was cracked all of the way through.

 

 

The fitting was loose and with only finger pressure the part broke.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pughs]

On 8/30/2020 at 3:06 PM, alsancle said:

 

 Do you have one of the new oilers?   Where do you have yours set?   This is a picture Al Giddings sent me of his.

The question is now are any of these reproduction valve bodies available?

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, pughs said:

The question is now are any of these reproduction valve bodies available?

Ask Mark.  Hopefully they still have some.   Probably, every original one needs to be replaced.

 

[alsancle]

This is a great shot of Daryl's car from a Town and Country article that Mark shared with me.

[alsancle]

Ed made me buy this.  Any idea what year it is for?   I want to run a plain cap on my car but my nanny won't let me.

 

 

[edinmass]

It’s a great piece.  To date it is easy, 1917-1924. Consider yourself fortunate that I found it.😝

[alsancle]

Maybe some of you saw this.  

 

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/out-of-hiding

 

[John_Mereness]

6 hours ago, alsancle said:

Maybe some of you saw this.  

 

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/out-of-hiding

 

While otherwise a very decent car, it was via wood rot missing the wooden sill on the driver's side from the windshield post to the center door post - NOT A FUN PROJECT AND NOT AN EASY REPAIR (apparently they attached the metal splash apron to the wooden body sill and it retained water in between) - sort of a "spider to the fly" sort of discussion.  

[John_Mereness]

On 9/14/2020 at 6:24 PM, alsancle said:

  I want to run a plain cap on my car but my nanny won't let me.

Big car and needs a big ornament - Just go with the Knight on the horse.  

 

If you really cannot, when I was a kid, Dave Bell had on his desk a knight with a shield and a sword - it was not huge - maybe 5.5" - something like that may work too. 

 

???

Edited September 16, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[edinmass]

No worries John, AJ is sticking with the big monstrosity that’s currently on the car.........it’s either the old mascot or a new wrench..........so I’m pretty sure he will learn to live with the current unit. 🤔

[Peterwoyen]

On 9/15/2020 at 2:08 PM, John_Mereness said:

While otherwise a very decent car, it was via wood rot missing the wooden sill on the driver's side from the windshield post to the center door post - NOT A FUN PROJECT AND NOT AN EASY REPAIR (apparently they attached the metal splash apron to the wooden body sill and it retained water in between) - sort of a "spider to the fly" sort of discussion.  

What I've seen of splash aprons is that the top flange sits on top of the frame.  Maybe held there with stove bolts or the like.  Then the wood body sill sits on top on that with cotton webbing or belting in between. The asphalt soaked stuff.  I replaced the front sill section on my Overland touring and had to graft new into old.  It was a slow project but it worked out well.  Please forgive the non CCCA conveyance in the attached pictures. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Peterwoyen (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, Peterwoyen said:

What I've seen of splash aprons is that the top flange sits on top of the frame.  Maybe held there with stove bolts or the like.  Then the wood body sill sits on top on that with cotton webbing or belting in between. The asphalt soaked stuff.  I replaced the front sill section on my Overland touring and had to graft new into old.  It was a slow project but it worked out well.  Please forgive the non CCCA conveyance in the attached pictures. 

And, I can see you also have a car that is nice enough that it too should never have had the wood problem to begin with -  Yes, they could have cause the problem too via fabric webbing.    I should have saved the photos and as you are aware I did not post them here as knew the fellow would be hurt in selling his car if I did post (aka while it looks like "just wood", the span of bad was so large that I could not imagine anything other than disassembling the car body to repair - been there done that too with a 1931 Cadillac and it was not fun).  I only have a few woodwork projects left in me - it will be L-29 Cord, Auburn V-12, or ....

[Peterwoyen]

5 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

And, I can see you also have a car that is nice enough that it too should never have had the wood problem to begin with -  Yes, they could have cause the problem too via fabric webbing.    I should have saved the photos and as you are aware I did not post them here as knew the fellow would be hurt in selling his car if I did post (aka while it looks like "just wood", the span of bad was so large that I could not imagine anything other than disassembling the car body to repair - been there done that too with a 1931 Cadillac and it was not fun).  I only have a few woodwork projects left in me - it will be L-29 Cord, Auburn V-12, or ....

I understand.  The older I get (I'm not that old but early 50's with school age kids) and busier I get the choosier I feel about taking on big projects.  It was easy to buy the huge projects when I was single and 30 something.  Now as I watch the sand run through the hourglass I'm feeling much different.  

[alsancle]

14 minutes ago, Peterwoyen said:

I understand.  The older I get (I'm not that old but early 50's with school age kids) and busier I get the choosier I feel about taking on big projects.  It was easy to buy the huge projects when I was single and 30 something.  Now as I watch the sand run through the hourglass I'm feeling much different.  

I will never buy another car I can’t hop in and drive around the block.

[pughs]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

I will never buy another car I can’t hop in and drive around the block.

What fun is that?

[pughs]

I got a new oil valve from Mark but it had a problem. I got replacement from him yesterday but the air quality is so bad from all of the fires in the West that I will have to wait until the smoke clears so I don't choke to death before I can put the oil valve back on the car.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, pughs said:

What fun is that?

 

I would be cool with garage art Steve, if I owned a decent garage.

[John_Mereness]

5 hours ago, alsancle said:

I will never buy another car I can’t hop in and drive around the block.

This came today and it went out for rebuild in February of 2017 - I think.

 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

This came today and it went out for rebuild in February of 2017 - I think.

 

 

 

Nice.    This went out in 2006 and is still out.

 

 

 

[edinmass]

Took the Stearns Super Knight out for a spin today. All the collection cars are dialed in to as close as perfect as I can make them. So I figured I would shake down the “Auto Show Special” as we now refer to it. Smoke issues are definitely over. Shifting through the gears is a pleasure. I was planning on showing the car at Boca in February, but now that the Chinese Kung Flu crapped all over that idea, it’s time to dig in a bit deeper. AJ....heads up.......send money............”it’s not gonna be a bumpy ride”.........(All about Eve) .........“it’s gonna be an expensive ride” ..........I’m only doing this one once,  so we are going to do it right....Just like my 1917 “Great White Botha”.......... my next mission with the car is to do something that has never been done with a sleeve valve car to my knowledge..........we’re gonna make this sucker run so it can chew up 90 percent of its contemporaries.......it has the torque and horsepower to do it, and the gearing is to the moon. Next stop.......making some of the people we tour with talk to themselves when a sleeve valve blows their door off. As we use to say at the Chinese Downhill Races.........”be fast!, or be passed!” 👍

Edited October 6, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Another drive in the “Auto Show Special”.........starts and runs fine. Starting easier now that we drive it every day......like all machines, the more you use it, the better it gets. Tried to make it overheat today........no dice. No matter how hot outside, the car runs cool. We were told it has a “new” radiator ten or twenty years ago, but can’t tell by looking. No oil leaks, no coolant leaks, and no exhaust leaks. It’s nice to have an old car that doesn’t need a diaper and clean up every time you move it. Fluid changes will be next. We already did the oil, but we will drop the pan in a week or two. Also flush the transmission and rear end, and fill with appropriate lubricant. Will probably drain and fill the coolant and then run evapo rust for a few months.....just because. It’s less than 175 bucks in chemicals......a cheap insurance policy for the future. We need to address tires and tubes.......and possibly cosmetics on the wheels when we rip it all apart. While we are doing that we will give the front end a quick go over, and grease.......also checking the brakes and dealing with the wheel bearings. I haven’t decided if I want to dig into the oil refractory system. Better weather is here, so we will drive it a while before we drop the pan and install the new oil pump gear.

[Doozer]

Wow, that all sounds VERY expensive.