Stearns Knight

[John_Mereness]

On 2/3/2021 at 7:42 PM, alsancle said:

 

btw, it is impossible to buy tubes right now for 19-21 inch rims.  Impossible.

See what is out there in a Michelin or a Blockley 

[pughs]

Stan Lucas has tubes. I have bought from him recently.  www.lucasclassictires.com

[alsancle]

5 hours ago, pughs said:

Stan Lucas has tubes. I have bought from him recently.  www.lucasclassictires.com

 

Steve,   I put my order in and they canceled it 3 hours later because the tubes were out of stock.

[Mark66A]

I am somewhat torn between the wood and wire wheels on a big Stearns sedan. That Rollston, with beautifully painted and striped wheels would look grand. I do have a set of those side-mounts if I were to go that way. Here is a G Cabriolet 8 cyl with wood wheels. The detail up close is beautiful. Wish the photo were high enough resolution to see that. Visualize side-mounts on this! Car is in Ohio.

[John_Mereness]

6 hours ago, Mark66A said:

I am somewhat torn between the wood and wire wheels on a big Stearns sedan. That Rollston, with beautifully painted and striped wheels would look grand. I do have a set of those side-mounts if I were to go that way. Here is a G Cabriolet 8 cyl with wood wheels. The detail up close is beautiful. Wish the photo were high enough resolution to see that. Visualize side-mounts on this! Car is in Ohio.

I tend to like rear mounted spare cars, love the glitz and formality of sidemounts, but  the "length" is good visually and trend was toward a rear mount.  

 

That said, I am not a fan of wooden wheels and at great expense and pain I have been quick to change anything we ever bought with wooden wheels to wire wheels - cheapest project was about $2.5K and most expensive was pushing 12K for conversion. 

[alsancle]

I'll put it this way,   I almost always prefer spokes,  with the exception of cars that you NEVER see with wood wheels.  Then the uniqueness overcomes my preference.

[Mark66A]

Interesting trivia which few in the world care about.  This is taken from the W.O.K.R. registry of known cars and is in sequence of chassis numbers... The 7 passenger touring (former rotted sedan) chassis #J11921 & engine #H1159 does not have radiator shutters. The '29 Brunn bodied Stearns Knight, Chassis #J11932, with engine #H1200 has radiator shutters.  The next is chassis #J11961 has engine #H1161 and does NOT have shutters. Next is chassis #J11990 which formerly had engine #H1275 and had radiator shutters .... this car was street rodded :( ...  To make room for the shutter mechanism, the radiator was moved forward, the hood was longer, and the radiator shell was larger front to back.  I believe those adjustments also moved the headlight bar forward a bit.  So... how did Stearns keep record of cars with radiator shutters? Doesn't appear to be after a certain chassis number.  Could it be that cars with 1200 and up engine numbers was the record?? Will we ever know? Hopefully the shop will have warmed up enough by tomorrow to work in it.

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, Mark66A said:

Interesting trivia which few in the world care about.  This is taken from the W.O.K.R. registry of known cars and is in sequence of chassis numbers... The 7 passenger touring (former rotted sedan) chassis #J11921 & engine #H1159 does not have radiator shutters. The '29 Brunn bodied Stearns Knight, Chassis #J11932, with engine #H1200 has radiator shutters.  The next is chassis #J11961 has engine #H1161 and does NOT have shutters. Next is chassis #J11990 which formerly had engine #H1275 and had radiator shutters .... this car was street rodded ...  To make room for the shutter mechanism, the radiator was moved forward, the hood was longer, and the radiator shell was larger front to back.  I believe those adjustments also moved the headlight bar forward a bit.  So... how did Stearns keep record of cars with radiator shutters? Doesn't appear to be after a certain chassis number.  Could it be that cars with 1200 and up engine numbers was the record?? Will we ever know? Hopefully the shop will have warmed up enough by tomorrow to work in it.

 

Mark,  do you know the spread between the lowest known chassis number and the highest known chassis number?

 

Ed was going to work on getting the shutters functional again on the Brunn.   He thinks that have been frozen open for 60 years.

[alsancle]

Here is a zoom on the front end of the Brunn from 1956 (Courtesy of Mark via Art).

 

There are 28 louvers in the hood.  I think I recall Duane Perrin saying that the radiator shutter cars had an extra louver or two in the hood.

[alsancle]

This picture shows the side of the hood taken in the early 60s.  Courtesy of Randy Ema.

[Mark66A]

Chassis #s for eight cyl Stearns 1927 thru 1929: G- 1927 and 1928 - G1 thru G641, H -1928 and 1929 (137"WB) H15650 thru H15976, J - 1928 and 1929 (145"WB) J11650 thru J12037.  Low production!  Survivor cars that I am aware of: G=3 - 2 sedans, 1 cabriolet.  H=8 - 1 modified speedster, 3 coupes, 1 cabriolet, 3 sedans,  J=10 - 1 Brunn Town Cabriolet, 1 Brunn Victoria, 2 limousines, 1 Informal Limousine, 1 Touring, 4 sedans.  So,  641 G cars built with 3 known survivors,  326 H cars built with 8 known survivors, 387 J cars built with 10 known survivors one of which is a street rod. Gives a total of 21 chassis #s with 20 engines plus a surviving take out engine which is incomplete. Hopefully more cars surface!!

[Peterwoyen]

It's a good reminder of the rare air we breathe with these cars.  I have to wonder about Europe.  You'd think some might have surfaced by now.  

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Peterwoyen (see edit history)

[Mark66A]

27 louvers on non-shutter cars.

[Cookie Man]

Mine has 27

[pughs]

Mine has 27 louvers, too.

[edinmass]

Mine has 28............but since I’m not writing the check...........I win! 😏

[Mark66A]

Ahem.... Seems to me more louvers were needed to expel more hot air so as to not get overheated.

[edinmass]

The only thing in my garage that is hot are the women.........some of them definitely are overheated.......my posse at Pebble Beach..........🤫

Edited February 21, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

The only thing in my garage that is hot are the women.........some of them definitely are overheated.......my posse at Pebble Beach..........🤫

Only because they thought you owned that multi-million-$ car, Ed! 

[edinmass]

8 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Only because they thought you owned that multi-million-$ car, Ed! 

Yes! What’s your point? 🤪

 

As we say from the wrong  side of the tracks......play the hand you're delt! 

[alsancle]

I have about 6 great quips queued up but I don't want to push things too far...

[alsancle]

1924 SK for sale.   https://www.vaultcars.com/1924-stearns-knight

 

This 1924 Stearns-Knight Touring has just been re-commissioned, and is a running, driving, and extremely rare example of the Knight system sleeve valve 6 Cylinder engine!  It is impressive enough to be considered a Full Classic by the Classic Car Club of America!

 

$28,500.

[John_Mereness]

21 hours ago, alsancle said:

1924 SK for sale.   https://www.vaultcars.com/1924-stearns-knight

 

This 1924 Stearns-Knight Touring has just been re-commissioned, and is a running, driving, and extremely rare example of the Knight system sleeve valve 6 Cylinder engine!  It is impressive enough to be considered a Full Classic by the Classic Car Club of America!

 

$28,500.

Interesting the number of top bows and looks like the top may be lined as well.   Dave Bell had a 1925 - a little Plain Jane in many respects, though equally oodles of interesting details.

[Peterwoyen]

I like the way this one is painted/ detailed

[Mark66A]

Dave Bell's old SK touring is still zooming around on W.O.K.R. tours. Fast and reliable. That car in the video is a deal for some lucky soul. Last I saw the red "S" it was missing some sleeves and not running. Hope they have gotten it back on the road. Heading off to the radiator shop next week for the J car I'm working on here. Still need an appropriate carb with an accelerator pump. Runs great on a BB-2, but likely not enough fuel delivery for road speeds. Peter just finished paint on a cylinder block and transmission case for the other H-8-90 in the shop. Anxious to get back on that project.

[alsancle]

On 2/24/2021 at 7:02 PM, Mark66A said:

Dave Bell's old SK touring is still zooming around on W.O.K.R. tours. Fast and reliable. That car in the video is a deal for some lucky soul. Last I saw the red "S" it was missing some sleeves and not running. Hope they have gotten it back on the road. Heading off to the radiator shop next week for the J car I'm working on here. Still need an appropriate carb with an accelerator pump. Runs great on a BB-2, but likely not enough fuel delivery for road speeds. Peter just finished paint on a cylinder block and transmission case for the other H-8-90 in the shop. Anxious to get back on that project.

 

 

Mark,  Ed is fired up to do the UU2/UUR2 adapter.   We should think about how we can make that happen.    I think you will see a huge performance boost running a UUR2.

Edited February 27, 2021 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Mark66A]

That would be an admirable project. However - - very few of the H/J cars have 2 barrel intakes. Maybe one other than the Brunn. The fit problem is the space between the cylinder block and the steering box. The flange for the carb is just in front of that space. Many carbs have the bowl to the back, which doesn't fit into that space. The manifold flange bolt holes are not parallel to the engine, with the front cocked off to the left. That gave clearance for the bowl between the block and steering box for the original carb. I have tried turning a carb around, but again have clearance issues. The carb throat is longer from flange center than the bowl. So, reversed, it slides between the block and steering box OK, but the throat opening hits the block a bit further back due to the flange angle. The 2bbl cars have different intake manifold, hot spot, and initial exhaust pipe bend than the 1bbl cars. A carb adapter for the 2bbl manifold would be different than an adapter for a 1bbl manifold. I'd suggest an exhaustive search for a carb that will fit. I have tried 4 carbs at this point. 2 fit. One large enough, but no accelerator pump. The BB2 fits and has an accelerator pump, but I'm concerned about it's ability to deliver enough fuel at road speed. Perhaps some of our fellow enthusiasts reading this will provide a winning suggestion!

Criteria: Updraft, capable of providing fuel for 385CID engine at maximum 4,000 rpm, accelerator pump, narrow bowl area - in both one and two barrel configurations.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Mark66A (see edit history)

[carbking]

I don't have a solution, but can maybe add some information that may (or may not) be useful.

 

Stearns-Knight used only Tillotson carburetors on the 385.

 

The first single barrel for the 385 was SP-1A, which was superseded by SP-15A.

The first two barrel for the 385 was the VD-1A which was superseded by VD-1B.

 

As Tillotson documentation is not the best of the carburetor companies, and these units were unique to Stearns-Knight, I have no flange mounting information.

 

The largest engine to use the Carter BB series carburetor as original equipment was a 265 CID.

 

Carter did suggest using the BB 289s on a 315, but we have proved that a larger carburetor works MUCH better!

 

Carter produced the BB series in size 1 (2 3/8 on mounting centers), size 2 (2 11/16 on mounting centers), and technically size 3 (2 15/16 on mounting centers) carburetors.

 

However, if one will look seriously at the 289s or 289sd (size 3), one finds that the internal venturi is the same as  that used on the BB1A/BB1D (size 2), and the throttle body is tapered to fit a size 3 manifold. However from an airflow standpoint, these are size 2 carburetors. We found that replacing a 289SD on the Packard 315 with a Stromberg SF-3 (size 3 in both physical size, and airflow) yielded significant positive results.

 

Looking at aftermarket carburetors from "the day", my records indicate only Schebler ever offered a replacement carb for the 385. This was a Schebler duplex model SX-274 to replace the 2-barrel. Personally, I cannot envision why anyone would ever wish to put a Schebler on anything except a numbers-matching showcar that came with the Schebler, and was never started.  

 

Neither Stromberg of Zenith (the two companies that offered the most aftermarket carbs) offered a replacement carburetor for the 385. Stromberg did toy with 2 different models for the single barrel (an M-4, and later an OT-4). Both were experimental only, and never produced. Interesting that both of these are size 4 carburetors. I do not have custody of the Zenith experimental files, but they did not offer a production unit.

 

Stromberg didn't even do an engineering exercise on a replacement for the two-barrel.

 

If one looks at updraft two-barrel carbs, one finds these were produced in varying quantities by: Johnson, Marvel (by far the most common, and least expensive), Penberthy (DV series), Schebler (S duplex), Stromberg (OO-2, UU-2, UU-3, UUR-2), and Zenith (105D, 105DC).

 

Looking at these, only the Schebler, Stromberg UU-2, UU-3, and UUR-2, and possibly the Marvel from a Buick series 90 would be sufficiently large internally to feed a 385 at 4,000 RPM.

 

Jon.

Edited February 28, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[carbking]

Mark also requested a carburetor with an accelerator pump.

 

Carter did offer a true accelerator pump on the BB series carburetor, which can be quite problematic for those not understanding how these things work. It is the one feature on these carburetors that I do not like.

 

The Stromberg and Zenith carbs used vacuum pumps that only worked AFTER the engine had been started and engine vacuum was available. This (opinion) was much superior to the accelerator pump.

 

The volume of the accelerator pump shot from these carburetors was maybe as much as 5 percent of that of a modern carburetor. For the most part, the benefit from an accelerator pump was largely in the mind of the operator!

 

Beginning in late 1931, for use on 1932 models; single barrel carburetors from Stromberg (SF series), and Zenith (63 series) both continued the vacuum pump rather than an accelerator pump, but the output increased to maybe 20~40 (adjustable) percent of that from a modern accelerator pump.

 

Jon.

[Cookie Man]

I have a Zenith model 63 on mine. It is single barrel and fits with a slight modification of the bolt holes in the carb. The car starts very easily however it has not been on the road yet. 

[alsancle]

23 hours ago, Mark66A said:

That would be an admirable project. However - - very few of the H/J cars have 2 barrel intakes. Maybe one other than the Brunn. The fit problem is the space between the cylinder block and the steering box. The flange for the carb is just in front of that space. Many carbs have the bowl to the back, which doesn't fit into that space. The manifold flange bolt holes are not parallel to the engine, with the front cocked off to the left. That gave clearance for the bowl between the block and steering box for the original carb. I have tried turning a carb around, but again have clearance issues. The carb throat is longer from flange center than the bowl. So, reversed, it slides between the block and steering box OK, but the throat opening hits the block a bit further back due to the flange angle. The 2bbl cars have different intake manifold, hot spot, and initial exhaust pipe bend than the 1bbl cars. A carb adapter for the 2bbl manifold would be different than an adapter for a 1bbl manifold. I'd suggest an exhaustive search for a carb that will fit. I have tried 4 carbs at this point. 2 fit. One large enough, but no accelerator pump. The BB2 fits and has an accelerator pump, but I'm concerned about it's ability to deliver enough fuel at road speed. Perhaps some of our fellow enthusiasts reading this will provide a winning suggestion!

Criteria: Updraft, capable of providing fuel for 385CID engine at maximum 4,000 rpm, accelerator pump, narrow bowl area - in both one and two barrel configurations.

 

 

Mark,  I think the Brunn has the one barrel.     Ed is fired up to do the onebarrel to UUR2 adapter, but I'm worried based on your analysis that there is just no room.   Instead of an adapter,  can we remake the manifold box directly above the carb (what do you call that?).

 

Jon,  what are your thoughts on running a UUR2?  Assuming there was some way to get it to fit.

[alsancle]

Btw,  I called Ed yesterday to tell him to come in here and say something intelligent,  but I woke him up from his nap.  I expect him to chime in sometime today.  He has a number of thoughts.

[carbking]

Quote "Jon,  what are your thoughts on running a UUR2?  Assuming there was some way to get it to fit." End quote

 

I DETEST adapters to try to adapt different number of barrels.

 

Did some research on these 40 years ago TRYING to come up with a replacement for the UUR-2 and Schebler Duplex carbs, for those not independently wealthy.

 

What I found

 

(1) The adapter MUST be a minimum of 4 inches in height, smoothing the transition from 1 to 2 barrels.

(2) An engine with the UUR-2 or Schebler Duplex would require a size 4 single barrel replacement. The same engine size, when equipped with a 1 barrel, would use a size 3 1 barrel.

(3) Was NEVER able to make even the size 4 carb run as well through an adapter as recasting the plenum on the intake to accept a size 3 single barrel.

 

So, guessing (opinion):

 

(1) If one recasts the plenum to accept the UUR-2, it certainly could be calibrated to run the engine far better than any Tillotson! 

(2) Rather than recast for the very expensive UUR-2, I would suggest recasting to fit a Stromberg SF-3 or Zenith 63AW12 single barrel. Either could be calibrated to handle the 385 CID; however if the car was to be used in vintage racing, I would cast it for a Stromberg SF-4 or Zenith 63AW14.

 

In the for what its worth category (you Packard purists ignore this sentence), we have replaced the Detroit Lubricator carb on a number of Super 8 Packards (drivers) with Stromberg SF-4 single barrels, and one of the smaller internal venturi. We have had a few folks that bought cars from folks that talked to us, then bought the first SF-4 they could find, and found the normally found venturi in the SF-4 too large for the Super 8 Packard. Once the correct venturi was installed, the Packard owners were impressed. Note that the Super 8 Packard engine is 385 CID. For normally driving the increased air velocity in the smaller SF-3 would improve driveability, but might lose a few ponies at WOT if the car was used for vintage racing. While the DL is a great carburetor, if properly rebuilt, and set up; both the Stromberg and Zenith are significantly better!

 

And just for the record, I would rather see an entire new intake designed for TWO smaller single barrels, than a UUR-2 through an adapter!

 

EDIT: the Stromberg UUR-2 might be an excellent choice if it would fit the two-barrel manifold. Calibration is certainly possible.

 

Jon.

Edited March 1, 2021 by carbking (see edit history)

[Mark66A]

Stearns "official" description: Intake Manifold: Swan square section; The intake gasses before reaching the intake manifold pass through a vertical riser or hot spot 7 3/8" long - which is insulated from the manifold and carburetor thru which all the exhaust gasses also pass; no provision is made to bypass these gases.Hot Spot or vertical riser is cast iron; finish black vitreous enamel wt 15 1/2 lbs.

Standard carb: Tillotson vertical outlet; plain tube type size 1 1/2". Air cleaner: Tillotson centrifugal

Source Stearns Knight Deluxe series Data Book.

When I got home after visiting Ed I picked through my stash of parts. I did not find a two barrel hot spot. I think I spotted a two barrel intake manifold and the correct U shaped exhaust pipe for the two barrel. You'd need all the parts. Anyone else have a hot spot available??? Anybody??

The two barrel was very late in the '29 production run after Motor # 1193 (mid year 1929) , and not noted in the Data Book, any owner manual or part list that I am aware of. It is referenced in Service Bulletin #74 dated 5/20/1929 below. Service Bulletin #75 was issued the same day, and introduced the Skinner Oil Rectifier on the Deluxe line of cars. Note the Two barrel hot spot was designed differently than the one barrel.

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Mark66A (see edit history)

[Mark66A]

One more note. I have a very nice, rebuilt Stromberg SF3 which I have been hoping to bolt up to a Stearns Knight 8 cyl. However - it will not fit. It has a big butt and will not wiggle in between the cylinder block and the steering box. Sigh.... now I apparently have to find a Zenith63AW14. My supply of unusable nicely rebuilt vintage carbs is growing.

[carbking]

Mark - to add to your misery, the Zenith is wider than the Stromberg, as the Zenith float is a double pontoon, whereas the Stromberg is a single pontoon.

 

Jon.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Mark66A said:

Stearns "official" description: Intake Manifold: Swan square section; The intake gasses before reaching the intake manifold pass through a vertical riser or hot spot 7 3/8" long - which is insulated from the manifold and carburetor thru which all the exhaust gasses also pass; no provision is made to bypass these gases.Hot Spot or vertical riser is cast iron; finish black vitreous enamel wt 15 1/2 lbs.

Standard carb: Tillotson vertical outlet; plain tube type size 1 1/2". Air cleaner: Tillotson centrifugal

Source Stearns Knight Deluxe series Data Book.

When I got home after visiting Ed I picked through my stash of parts. I did not find a two barrel hot spot. I think I spotted a two barrel intake manifold and the correct U shaped exhaust pipe for the two barrel. You'd need all the parts. Anyone else have a hot spot available??? Anybody??

The two barrel was very late in the '29 production run after Motor # 1193 ( , and not noted in the Data Book, any owner manual or part list that I am aware of. It is referenced in Service Bulletin #74 dated 5/20/1929 below. Service Bulletin #75 was issued the same day, and introduced the Skinner Oil Rectifier on the Deluxe line of cars. Note the Two barrel hot spot was designed differently than the one barrel.

 

 

If I understand correctly,   the swan hot spot and the manifold both need the two barrel plenum?   So you can't just recast a  hot spot with two barrels?

 

The Skinner Rectifier must have gone in to production much earlier than Spring 1929 as the Brunn  (a late 28 build) has one.

[alsancle]

Also,  the Brunn came with a really nice UU2 carburetor which was going to be traded towards a really nice UUR2 carburetor.  So color me disappointment.

 

It would be really nice to figure out a way to make these cars CCCA Caravan capable.

Edited March 2, 2021 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Mark66A]

I believe A.J. is correct. Not easy to manufacture a new hot spot with no example or prints to reference. I think the Brunn was built later than late 1928 because of serial numbers. The Brunn chassis # is 11932, Engine #1200 - per W.O.K.R. registry records. The highest chassis number (1929)  is 11993 with engine #1277.  W.O.K.R. registry starts 1929 production with J series chassis #11823 and engine #699.  

[Mark66A]

Hmmmm....Suppose I did locate a 2bbl hot spot and intake that could be loaned out to make copies. If someone wanted to do that project the originals would then be available in exchange for a copied set when the originals were returned.  The issue of fitting a 2bbl carb between the block and steering box still exists.