Stearns Knight

[Peterwoyen]

1 minute ago, carbking said:

Peter - the largest BB-1 is too small for that engine (assuming you have the same size engine as Al/Ed).

 

Al - do any parts books exist that might list the appropriate 2-barrel?

 

Jon

I've wondered about the BB1 being too small.  What do you recommend?  Our cars have single barrel intakes on them.  H-8-90 Eight cylinder engines the same as the one being discussed.    

[carbking]

Peter, would have to pull the records to determine internal venturi size, but the Stromberg M-4 and OT-4 sold to/for Stearns were S.A.E. size 4 carburetors. The largest BB-1 is a size 3.

 

Jon.

[Peterwoyen]

2 minutes ago, carbking said:

Peter, would have to pull the records to determine internal venturi size, but the Stromberg M-4 and OT-4 sold to/for Stearns were S.A.E. size 4 carburetors. The largest BB-1 is a size 3.

 

Jon.

Thank you.  We will have to discuss this further.  Early on in this venture (10 years ago and longer) we were shooting from the hip in regards to carburetors.   

[carbking]

Al - very intrigued by the two-barrel.

 

I have custody of the Stromberg records - nothing,  and Zenith master lists with lists everything from small engine to aircraft - nothing.

 

The Johnson and Penberthy 2-barrels had long been (thankfully) discontinued by this time.

 

The only other updraft two-barrels available in the general time frame would have been Detroit Lubricator (think Packard Speedster), and Juhacz, who made an aftermarket unit for Duesenberg that I have yet to find anyone who actually had one on a RUNNING car. Marvel did come out with an updraft 2-barrel in mid-1931.

 

By mid-1929, the two-barrel downdraft had been released, and companies were considering these for 1930.

 

Jon.

[Peterwoyen]

The original carb was a Tillotson 2 barrel updraft.  We have the crumbling remains of one

Edited May 15, 2020 by Peterwoyen (see edit history)

[alsancle]

13 minutes ago, carbking said:

Al - very intrigued by the two-barrel.

 

I have custody of the Stromberg records - nothing,  and Zenith master lists with lists everything from small engine to aircraft - nothing.

 

The Johnson and Penberthy 2-barrels had long been (thankfully) discontinued by this time.

 

The only other updraft two-barrels available in the general time frame would have been Detroit Lubricator (think Packard Speedster), and Juhacz, who made an aftermarket unit for Duesenberg that I have yet to find anyone who actually had one on a RUNNING car. Marvel did come out with an updraft 2-barrel in mid-1931.

 

By mid-1929, the two-barrel downdraft had been released, and companies were considering these for 1930.

 

Jon.

 

I'll ask Duane what his all original car is running.   His car is a very late built (one of the last) 8-90 engines,  which hasn't been run since 1944.  

 

 

[edinmass]

I accidentally got involved with Stromberg carburetors thirty years ago, on a very limited basis for Pierce Arrow products. We began to make lots of parts for any Stromberg that fit Pierce Arrow (UU2,UUR2,E2,EX32,EE3) then it evolved into the crossover market and application for the others that also used it. (Stutz,Stude,Bugatti, and others) I won't bore you with all the details. UU2 carbs had a bunch of issues from day one, LOTS of problems. They kept changing them until the UUR2 came out. The UUR2 is the correct replacment for a UU2 in all applications. I have been involved with several Stearns Knight carburetor replacements over the last twenty years. Both single and double barrel. While it's my understanding that after a certain build date in 1929, all the eight cylinder cars had the double barrel intakes. It seems all the original carbs were failing fast and furious by the late 1960's. On AJ's car, in a perfect world it should have a UU2 on it as a correct in the era aftermarket replacement, and the car came with one, remembering this car was owned for 65 years by "Mister Stearns Knight". Since Stearns was effectively already out of business by very early 29, they were just selling off the parts and chassis they had to clear out their inventory and building. I think that's why we don't see official listings for Stromberg applications on them. It would be like listing a fuel injector nozzle for the space shuttle in a Bosch catalog. Not too much demand! Anyways, the half dozen Stearns guys I have met over the years all seemed to gravitate to the UU2/UUR2 as the best correct of the era alternative.........and I agree for a bunch of reasons. Ultimately even if I found a correct factory carb, and by some miracle it was good, I wouldn't run it due to very serious fire considerations. Simply put, the factory carb should not be an option, unless you are driving the car onto the field at Pebble. Even then, the five guys who know the difference probably are not judges. So, if one goes with the logic of what a professional would do back in the day for a replacement, the Stromberg makes sense all the way around. Just my two cents..........

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[carbking]

The listing I have for 1929 is a Tillotson type VD-1A, superseded by VD-1B. I have no data as to if this is a single barrel or two barrel. The Tillotson books completely ignore this model.

 

EDIT: Ed, I was typing while you were posting. I would certainly agree with you about the quality of the Tillotson (if that was original) vis a vis a Stromberg UU-2/UUR-2. I am just trying to keep my database as correct as possible. Stromberg DID offer over-the-counter aftermarket replacement UU-2 and UUR-2 carbs with generic calibrations.

 

Jon.

Edited May 15, 2020 by carbking (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Wow......Tillotson had a brand of carb called the .........wait for it........VD. My guess the VD-1A is like having two types of VD at the same time.....at least you still only need on shot from the doctor! 😆

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, Peterwoyen said:

I love hearing your impressions of the car!  It affirms the things that Art Aseltine claimed over the years.  I don't know that the Classic Car world ever took his claims seriously.  Because of such low production numbers and lack of remaining cars few people have experienced them.  You've given me a much needed dose of enthusiasm to get ours finished.  I really am curious to know what rear end gear ratio is in that car?  

  

 

 

Havn't gotten to that yet...........its got to be 3:1 or very close to it......the car is that fast..........second gear is great in town, third or direct is only good for big open roads.......it feels longer legged than out Model J with a 3.5:1

[carbking]

5 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Wow......Tillotson had a brand of carb called the .........wait for it........VD. My guess the VD-1A is like having two types of VD at the same time.....at least you still only need on shot from the doctor! 😆

 

Ed - so did Marvel-Schebler, but much later

 

Jon.

[carbking]

Sorry guys - wish my memory was better 😠

 

Tillotson type VD carb used by Stearns-Knight

 

If anyone has a better copy of this bulletin (that is more readable) would like to see a scan.

 

Jon.

Edited May 15, 2020 by carbking (see edit history)

[Peterwoyen]

16 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Havn't gotten to that yet...........its got to be 3:1 or very close to it......the car is that fast..........second gear is great in town, third or direct is only good for big open roads.......it feels longer legged than out Model J with a 3.5:1

That would support Arts comment made to Duerksen in his book that his S-K would give a Dues J a run for it's money.  Boy would I like to watch that.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Peterwoyen (see edit history)

[edinmass]

29 minutes ago, Peterwoyen said:

That would support Arts comment made to Duerksen in his book that his S-K would give a Dues J a run for it's money.  Boy would I like to watch that.

 

 

The Stearns will NOT run with a Duesenberg, but it will slowly roll out with one and keep next to it on a slow acceleration. The Stearns has a much different type of power plant...........a low speed engine making some decent horsepower and lots of torque. Off the line the Stearns would get eaten alive. NOTHING beats a Model J. But, the Stearns is a powerful and interesting car that is exceptionally fast.....NOT QUICK. SK cars are an interesting small chapter American automotive history. High quality, and it's fair to say an interesting experience both driving and servicing them. What really makes the car is it's drivability on todays modern roads, you can use it much more readily than 99 percent of the car out there in its the frame. Thats why I like it so much. Ed

[pughs]

I believe the VD-1A is a two barrel carburetor. The single barrel is definitely a SP15B. The 7 green seven passenger at the AACA museum is running a Juhacz (see below).

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by pughs (see edit history)

[edinmass]

43 minutes ago, carbking said:

Sorry guys - wish my memory was better 😠

 

Tillotson type VD carb used by Stearns-Knight

 

If anyone has a better copy of this bulletin (that is more readable) would like to see a scan.

 

Jon.

 

 

Wow....great info........my guess is one can infer the date of that buiilten is when they all went to two barrels. I have been told by other owners of the cars their car was "upgraded" to the dual set up when it was new..........one can only ponder the question.

[carbking]

Ed - generally the date is the date of the bulletin, and the effective date would have been earlier.

 

The bulletin does mention engine number H-1193 as the changeover engine.

 

Jon.

[edinmass]

Jon.......your the man..........or, should I say, the King of Carburetors! 

[Peterwoyen]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

 

The Stearns will NOT run with a Duesenberg, but it will slowly roll out with one and keep next to it on a slow acceleration. The Stearns has a much different type of power plant...........a low speed engine making some decent horsepower and lots of torque. Off the line the Stearns would get eaten alive. NOTHING beats a Model J. But, the Stearns is a powerful and interesting car that is exceptionally fast.....NOT QUICK. SK cars are an interesting small chapter American automotive history. High quality, and it's fair to say an interesting experience both driving and servicing them. What really makes the car is it's drivability on todays modern roads, you can use it much more readily than 99 percent of the car out there in its the frame. Thats why I like it so much. Ed

I'd grant you that.  The Duesenberg is more than twice the HP.  I like the thought of something old that will keep up somewhat with modern traffic.  Modern speeds and impatient drivers have relegated my 25 Ford and 15 Overland to more or less residential driving.  

[John_Mereness]

On 5/15/2020 at 9:27 AM, carbking said:

Peter - the largest BB-1 is too small for that engine (assuming you have the same size engine as Al/Ed).

Correct - On the 1930 Franklin Series 14, I ran a Stromberg U-3, but I kept a "largest" BB-1 for troubleshooting - when I had carb problems (and I did have carb problems), I could put the BB-1 on the car and and use it as for diagnosis purposes - IT HAD NO TOP END SPEED THOUGH (TRIED IT) AND WAS JUST USED FOR GETTING IT TO RUN AT IDLE.

 

And countless people in Franklin club were running  BB-1's on their Series 13's 1929's and also Series 12's - 1928's, but their cars ran like S _ _ T and some people would tell you how they were the best thing since sliced bread, but they you would go out with them and just be dumbfounded that they found their car running well (I guess it beats collecting dust in the corner of garage, but ... and not by much either). 

 

Ed is correct - run something sized for the engine that is as dependable as you can find (and especially stay away from 90 year old die cast)

Edited May 16, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

17 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Ed is correct - run something sized for the engine that is as dependable as you can find (and especially stay away from 90 year old die cast

 

That is why Ed and I were thinking UUR2.   They are relatively plentiful and can be dialed in for the purpose.    We may need to have Cislak do a 2 to 1 adapter project.

 

I'm happy to see the Stearns Knight thread getting so much traction.

[John_Mereness]

2 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

I'm happy to see the Stearns Knight thread getting so much traction.

Ed is the best salesman they never had !!!

[John_Mereness]

4 minutes ago, alsancle said:

That is why Ed and I were thinking UUR2.   They are relatively plentiful and can be dialed in for the purpose.    We may need to have Cislak do a 2 to 1 adapter project.

Yes, if at all possible try to do it - do it like yesterday and at the latest today.  And, you explained the reasons for doing it this winter, but try to get the Indians to attack the wagon train now - beg if you have to  

[carbking]

14 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

That is why Ed and I were thinking UUR2.   They are relatively plentiful and can be dialed in for the purpose.    We may need to have Cislak do a 2 to 1 adapter project.

 

I'm happy to see the Stearns Knight thread getting so much traction.

 

Suggestion - don't even think about the possibility of considering a 2->1 adapter!

 

If you were, think NASCAR, and restrictor plate racing.

 

The UUR-2 was one of the best two-barrels of its time, but inferior (opinion) to a correctly sized single barrel Zenith type 63 or Stromberg type SF.

 

Think about it. The UUR-2 was discontinued around WWII. The Zenith type 63 and the Stromberg type SF were still being sold in the early 1970's!

 

It would make an interesting back-to-back test of the UUR-2 versus the SF or 63 IF one had the two-barrel manifold for the UUR-2 (I think the single-barrel would prevail, but just conjecture). With a 2->1 adapter, would be absolutely NO contest.

 

Jon

Edited May 16, 2020 by carbking (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

11 minutes ago, carbking said:

 

Suggestion - don't even think about the possibility of considering a 2->1 adapter!

 

If you were, think NASCAR, and restrictor plate racing.

 

The UUR-2 was one of the best two-barrels of its time, but inferior (opinion) to a correctly sized single barrel Zenith type 63 or Stromberg type SF.

 

Think about it. The UUR-2 was discontinued around WWII. The Zenith type 63 and the Stromberg type SF were still being sold in the early 1970's!

 

It would make an interesting back-to-back test of the UUR-2 versus the SF or 63 IF one had the two-barrel manifold for the UUR-2 (I think the single-barrel would prevail, but just conjecture). With a 2->1 adapter, would be absolutely NO contest.

 

Jon

I do not think they mean a 2 to 1 adapter in this sense, I think they mean that the bolt arrangement for the manifold needs an adapter to match the bolt arrangement for the carburetor  ?

[carbking]

John - obviously, I did not read it the same way you did. To me, that would be a 2->2 adapter with different footprints.

 

Semantics can get us into trouble

 

EDIT: my understanding if someone says 2->1 adapter [image]

 

Jon.

Edited May 16, 2020 by carbking (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I meant to say an adapter that would fit the UUR2 to the single barrel intake.

[Cookie Man]

Art Aseltine restored my engine about twenty years ago. He used a Zenith carburetor he said was still being made for marine applications. In his opinion expressed to me this was the best option and as Ed said he was Mr Stearns Knight.

 

 

[alsancle]

29 minutes ago, Cookie Man said:

Art Aseltine restored my engine about twenty years ago. He used a Zenith carburetor he said was still being made for marine applications. In his opinion expressed to me this was the best option and as Ed said he was Mr Stearns Knight.

 

 

Daryl,  when you get a chance,  could you try to get a picture of that carb?

[carbking]

50 minutes ago, Cookie Man said:

Art Aseltine restored my engine about twenty years ago. He used a Zenith carburetor he said was still being made for marine applications. In his opinion expressed to me this was the best option and as Ed said he was Mr Stearns Knight.

 

 

 

Zenith produced the passenger and truck type 63 (mentioned in my previous post with the Stromberg type SF). The marine version of the same type was the 263. Neither have been produced since the mid-1970's; however, Zenith did have some inventory of both up to about 15 or so years ago. I bought all of the existing 63/263 Zenith had in inventory when Zenith obsoleted (there was a political reason, which I will not discuss here) them.

 

The major differences between the 63 and the 263 (not on all models) were some of the 263's were brass, some of the 263's had brass fittings, and some of the 263's had an air horn which turned slightly upward, rather than being straight.

 

All three of these types come in 5 different S.A.E. flange sizes, plus all three have removable/replaceable venturii. Two keys to their use: (1) determine the S.A.E. flange size (adapters are for snake oil salesmen  , unless it is a cross-flange required to properly orient the carburetor), and (2) determine the correct internal venturi size for the engine on which the carburetor will be placed. Once both are determined, and the correct carb is acquired (don't think one with be sufficient lucky to buy just any of the above and find the correct venturi on the shelf), the jetting becomes fairly easy. And the correct venturi can be fabricated, if one has a lathe with a taper attachment; but easier to start with the correct unit than fabricate parts.

 

This link will enable one to determine (from the single barrel intake manifold) the S.A.E. carburetor size required.

 

Stromberg SF/SFM series carbs and flange sizes

 

The venturi size is a bit more complicated.

 

Jon.

Edited May 16, 2020 by carbking (see edit history)

[Cookie Man]

There you go AJ

[edinmass]

Cookie man..........were going to go with the Stromberg UUR2. Here is the current carb......a boat anchor.

[carbking]

Ed - that one looks like a Schebler type T.

 

Jon.

[pughs]

After A.J. works out all of technical stuff and puts a newer carburetor on his car and then tests it extensively to make sure he has made the best choice, then I will replace my pot metal Tillotson SP15B with whatever he uses.

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, pughs said:

After A.J. works out all of technical stuff and puts a newer carburetor on his car and then tests it extensively to make sure he has made the best choice, then I will replace my pot metal Tillotson SP15B with whatever he uses.

Looks like we’re are going to have to make a production run of some Strombergs for 8-90 Stearns applications.

[pughs]

Ed,

Sign me up for one if you do. It would be nice to configure it so the original linkages could remain the same.

[alsancle]

A couple of pictures courtesy of Al Giddings.    A man sized crankshaft.

[pughs]

On 11/27/2016 at 7:49 PM, John_Mereness said:

Jason, that is the car-  Bob Agle was getting it running for Ann Bell (Dave's Wife) after Dave's death.  Dave was like glue for the Willys Overland Knight Registry - President for years and also held all the factory drawings, plus a host of cutaway display engines.  And when he died also had a 1925 Touring (yellow an black) and an incomplete/project yet spectacular 1929 Stearns Knight 8 Cylinder Murphy Boattail Speedster (a match in body to several surviving Duesenbergs).  The Coupe was a Dark Maroon that could have been easily mistaken for a very rich brown.  The Coupe was from Los Angeles and pretty outstanding original car.   He was very fortunate that he had a second engine for it - this Coupe was and one of the most successfully driven Stearns Knight cars known.  Ann Bell sold it and I have no idea where it is now, nor the 1925.  

 

Dave Bell also had a 1930 145 Series Franklin Sedan and a 1931 153 Series Franklin Sedan - aka why we had the 1930 147 Dietrich Speedster 4 Door Convertible Sedan.  And, Dad and I took Bob Agle to his first Franklin meet - I am thinking 1979.

 

By the way, Dad will always speak of thew quests for alcohol based antifreeze for the Coupe (allowed evaporation if leaked into cylinders) and I remember a few late evening engine disassembly/reassembly, as well as many a rumble seat ride.  Polished it a few times too.

Whatever happened to the 1929 Stearns Knight 8 Cylinder Murphy Boattail Speedster?

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, pughs said:

Whatever happened to the 1929 Stearns Knight 8 Cylinder Murphy Boattail Speedster?

It disappeared and his estate was never able to find the garage (or so I was told).  The chassis was an SK in an unrestored 8 cylinder with no engine  and the body was made by Don Carr as a duplicate to his Duesenberg - at one time don was going to make a daily driver replica of his car with modern mechanical guts (he mainly drove the Duesenberg and for years and years it was his only car).  I would say the body was 75% to 80% done - some work nice and some not so much. A group of his friends helped him form the aluminum  at Air Force Museum restoration shop at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

From June 30th 1929 San Francisco Examiner.