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Headlights/Original


avgwarhawk

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This weekend I attended a Thanksgiving Day parade with my 54 Buick. As I parked awaiting to assemble for the parade a 1956 Chevy 2 door no post parked beside me. The Chevy is beautify restored to a T.  I inquired with the owner concerning the tires on the Chevy as they appeared to be radials with the bias ply look.   He did confirm they are radials that he runs when touring but has a set of bias ply for shows, etc. We went on to discuss other items, one being headlamps. He mentioned original(NOS headlamps) are hard to find and if you do find one make the purchase.  The lamps should have 12V, Made in the USA and Sealed Beam somewhere in the lense of the lamp.   With that said we took a look at my 54 Buick's headlamps.  The lamps had the 12V in the middle of the glass, Sealed Beam on the top and Made in the USA on the bottom.  He exclaimed that these lamps do show the originality of the Buick.   Are headlamps an item that are used as an indicator to originality of a car?  Are headlamps something that is part of a formal judging?

 

As as side note, the Chevy owner said he trys not to use his original lamps or as little as possible because once they blow finding a replacement is very difficult.             

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Shortly after we acquired our 46R, we ran across another 1956 46R at a show and he started talking headlights.  He had one pebble background ('55-'59?) T3 and one stripe background ('60-'67?) T3.  As I recall, he said the pebble background bulb was blown out, but he kept it in for originality.  He was desperately looking for a pair of pebble T3s...

 

Now, this was over 20 years ago, and we didn't have the internet like it is today, so I don't know if repros were available then like they are now.

 

A few years back we pulled our working pebble background bulbs, put them on a shelf, and started running with modern halogens installed.  NOBODY has ever said a word to us about our 'non-authentic' headlights.  Not.Once.

 

 

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Lamar,

 

I have the headlights pictured for 53-55.  12V in the middle of the glass.  The other Made in USA and Sealed Beam around the circumference.    The headlights in my Buick are probably original.  Upon closer inspection the left lamp interior reflective material is coming apart along the edge.      

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You can always bake them to 200*F and then pop the old glass off and bake them on to a new pair of halogens. Of course you're using 60 year old optics with modern lights so the cut pattern and beam diffusion may be lacking in quality but at least they'll function. 

 

Guys my age so this all the time except instead of popping the lenses off to change filament, they put a projector housing in there with a HID lighting kit for the full BMW experience. 

 

Bake at your own risk, but 200*F is about where the glue between the housing and lense becomes malleable to separate. 

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I have no issues with my headlamps.  They work fine.  I just find it interesting that the Chevy owner was adamant about original lamps and using his as little as possible.  I find it also interesting is these lamps on the Buick are more than likely original to the car.    

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IMHO, headlights are a safety issue.  If you're going to drive your car at night, put good lights on it.

 

Generally speaking, that means replacing the original harness with a new, relay-based harness.  Even with old sealed-beam lamps you'll get better illumination as the lamps will see higher voltage.  If you take the next step and install upgraded lights as well, you'll have the same performance as a modern car.

 

No, it won't be original.  Neither is the deer that's wedged in your grill because you couldn't see it.

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I have 6 volt headlights on my 53 Special and they are Guide brand that I think was what was installed at the factory.

I have one spare Guide headlamp and 4 replacements, either Sylvania or GE.   I suppose in a judged meet if two cars were nearly identical

the tie-breaker might be if one had the original Guide headlamps and the other did not otherwise I don't think it matters.  I agree that a relay system powering the lights directly from the battery will probably give better light output.

Joe

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Most of the power to operate eletrical devices comes directly through the switch. They can be dash or door switches in the case of power windows. I have noticed hot keys on some GM cars after driving them and thought about installing an ignition relay to prolong the switch life and avoid resistance. The same ideas could apply to the lighting system as well.

 

On Rolls-Royce cars I have found condensers installed on wiper, window, and heater switches which I figured were to prolong contact life. I have not seen this on many cars, but I have some headlight rewiring to do on the 6 volt Packard with a unique headlight switch. I am planning headlight relays for that car.

Bernie

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2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Most of the power to operate eletrical devices comes directly through the switch. They can be dash or door switches in the case of power windows. I have noticed hot keys on some GM cars after driving them and thought about installing an ignition relay to prolong the switch life and avoid resistance. The same ideas could apply to the lighting system as well.

 

Apologies for perhaps hijacking the thread, but this is very true.  There can be quite a bit of current going through both the light and ignition switches.  As a sanity check, look at your fuse box -- than add up everything that's fed by the ACC circuit (interior lights, blower motor, wipers, radio, etc.).  The idea is same for both the lights and the accessories: use the present switch to trigger a relay instead of directly switching the circuit.  The benefits are simple: you'll often get higher voltage at the destination (i.e. less voltage loss in the wiring), and you'll save the switches and older wiring from both physical and thermal damage.

Edited by KongaMan (see edit history)
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Back to the original question....Car shows vary quite a bit when it comes to headlights.  Learn the specific rule of the show you are entering the car in.  What may be no deduction for one club, may be a major deduction for another one.  In AACA National shows, the headlights must match and be period correct, the brand does not matter.  That would mean that halogens would be a major deduction on your Buick in that show, but a matching set of non-halogen GE bulbs would not be a deduction.  I'm not sure what the current BCA judging guideline on this is, but someone on here will.  The key here is if you are going to show in a club National event, know the rules before hand.  You can find this in the Club's Judging Manual.

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6 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

Lamar,

 

I have the headlights pictured for 53-55.  12V in the middle of the glass.  The other Made in USA and Sealed Beam around the circumference.    The headlights in my Buick are probably original.  Upon closer inspection the left lamp interior reflective material is coming apart along the edge.      

 

I'm thinking those may be after market Chris. Here's the diagram a bit larger. Note the word GUIDE at the very bottom. But yea, I know what you're talking about re the reflective material peeling off

 

headlights4.PNG

 

and a file picture of my ol' girl Irene's headlights

 

100_3051.jpg

headlight irene.PNG

 

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6 minutes ago, MrEarl said:

 

I'm thinking those may be after market Chris. Here's the diagram a bit larger. Note the word GUIDE at the very bottom. But yea, I know what you're talking about re the reflective material peeling off

 

headlights4.PNG

 

and a file picture of my ol' girl Irene's headlights

 

100_3051.jpg

headlight irene.PNG

 

This is exactly what I have on the 48D.

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21 minutes ago, 61polara said:

Back to the original question....Car shows vary quite a bit when it comes to headlights.  Learn the specific rule of the show you are entering the car in.  What may be no deduction for one club, may be a major deduction for another one.  In AACA National shows, the headlights must match and be period correct, the brand does not matter.  That would mean that halogens would be a major deduction on your Buick in that show, but a matching set of non-halogen GE bulbs would not be a deduction.  I'm not sure what the current BCA judging guideline on this is, but someone on here will.  The key here is if you are going to show in a club National event, know the rules before hand.  You can find this in the Club's Judging Manual.

 

The Chevy owner was quite adamant about original lamps. Judging the immaculate restoration of his 56 I suspect he has the car judged at shows that demand as much originality as possible.

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Cool, I thought you were saying something about Made in the USA.

When I picked up my 2 door Roadmaster (DoraB) from up in Kansas, I made a loop down to Plano to that years Buick Nationals. She still had both her original Guide lights on her. I showed them to a guy who had just restored a beautiful 54 Skylark and he offered me a right pretty penny for them so he could put them on his Skylark for judging but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

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15 hours ago, KongaMan said:

IMHO, headlights are a safety issue.  If you're going to drive your car at night, put good lights on it.

 

Generally speaking, that means replacing the original harness with a new, relay-based harness.  Even with old sealed-beam lamps you'll get better illumination as the lamps will see higher voltage.  If you take the next step and install upgraded lights as well, you'll have the same performance as a modern car.

 

No, it won't be original.  Neither is the deer that's wedged in your grill because you couldn't see it.

 

 

There is an old saying, at least in my neck of the woods.  Do not out drive your headlights. ;) 

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BCA judging does cover headlamps.   The explanation on the back of the judging sheet could be open to interpretation but it reads as follows.........

and the entire judging manual can be found here.... http://www.buickclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/bca_judging_manual.pdf

6 points total are allowed for headlamps and that would only be deducted if they were completely missing, I would think a non-authentic bulb would be one point per side, max, condition could deduct another point.

We should have several BCA judges that could give their opinion.

Lights #11

Head lamps/Side lamps and or Parking lamps/Tail lamps/Driving lamps and/or Fog lamps

Check the lights are correct for the year of manufacture or a factory authorized option.

A point deduction should be made for incorrect sealed beam lights or halogens if not offered as original factory equipment, headlamp housings that are not the correct finish, lack the correct trim, and/or are in poor condition.

Points also should be deducted for non-authentic lights, cracked, improper or faded lenses.

1940 = First use of sealed beam headlight lamps (metal backed)

1948 = Sealed beam bulbs in spotlights and driving lamps

1955 = First all glass sealed beams bulbs on Buicks.

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10 hours ago, MrEarl said:

Cool, I thought you were saying something about Made in the USA.

When I picked up my 2 door Roadmaster (DoraB) from up in Kansas, I made a loop down to Plano to that years Buick Nationals. She still had both her original Guide lights on her. I showed them to a guy who had just restored a beautiful 54 Skylark and he offered me a right pretty penny for them so he could put them on his Skylark for judging but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

 

 

They do have Made in the USA along the bottom.  I see it as well in your picture of the original lamps.   It is just below the Sealed Beam Guide.  I would not look to sell the pair on my 54.  The lense has a unique look to the era.     

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

 

They do have Made in the USA along the bottom.  I see it as well in your picture of the original lamps.   It is just below the Sealed Beam Guide.  I would not look to sell the pair on my 54.  The lense has a unique look to the era.     

 

O I C !  ya know Chris, I think you have a pair of original headlights :lol::lol: 

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3 hours ago, wndsofchng06 said:

Jeez....  I'm going to go check all my headlights now....

 

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

 

Why?  They were working before this thread was created.  I betcha they are still working now. :) 

 

I think what Matt means is he's going to check and see how many old Guide headlights he has so he and Benjamin can start a business of repoping 12V GUIDE headlights. Then they'll make sure the judges know to take away points for incorrect headlights, thus making Matt and Benjamin instant  millionaires. Sounds legit, can I get in on it.

 

edit   Image result for that's a joke son meme

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3 minutes ago, MrEarl said:

 

 

I think what Matt means is he's going to check and see how many old Guide headlights he has so he and Benjamin can start a business of repoping 12V GUIDE headlights. Then they'll make sure the judges know to take away points for incorrect headlights, thus making Matt and Benjamin instant  millionaires. Sounds legit, can I get in on it.

D*mn, I hadn't taken it THAT far yet,  I was just going to hock my original headlights on here, but now that you mention it..........   

 

Extra points for the foghorn leghorn cartoon

Edited by wndsofchng06 (see edit history)
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7 minutes ago, MrEarl said:

which brings up a question, my mind is fuzzy about it but I seem to recall the change over to T-3's coming in mid '55, what say ye "55 experts?

 

 

Good question, what is the replacement if and when one of these originals blows?

 

20 minutes ago, MrEarl said:

 

O I C !  ya know Chris, I think you have a pair of original headlights :lol::lol: 

 

Nifty!

 

13 minutes ago, MrEarl said:

 

 

I think what Matt means is he's going to check and see how many old Guide headlights he has so he and Benjamin can start a business of repoping 12V GUIDE headlights. Then they'll make sure the judges know to take away points for incorrect headlights, thus making Matt and Benjamin instant  millionaires. Sounds legit, can I get in on it.

 

edit  

 

Seems reasonable. 

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No T-3' s on a 55 unless a later replacement.

Never saw points deducted for non halogen, but not non original sealed beams (BCA judging)...may be more likely to loss points on condition of those old blackened originals.

If you drive at night install the best and brightest you can find.

 

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7 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

 

There is an old saying, at least in my neck of the woods.  Do not out drive your headlights. ;) 

Tell that to the guy stuck behind you when you're going down the road at 30 mph. ;)

 

To me it comes down whether you want a looker or a driver.  If it's never on the road, then go for the original bulbs (which, I agree, look better).  You don't have to put seat belts in, either.  But if you're going to drive it, are you really going to risk putting your face through the windshield for the sake of a couple of points on a tally sheet?

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32 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

Tell that to the guy stuck behind you when you're going down the road at 30 mph. ;)

 

To me it comes down whether you want a looker or a driver.  If it's never on the road, then go for the original bulbs (which, I agree, look better).  You don't have to put seat belts in, either.  But if you're going to drive it, are you really going to risk putting your face through the windshield for the sake of a couple of points on a tally sheet?

 

 

Here is the thing,  I never had issues with the original lamps in the Buick.  I drive at night and never felt the illumination was not where it needed to be.  In fact, I thought the lamps were replaced at one time with newer only to find the lamps are original.       

PS...the Buick has lap belts at all four seating positions.  

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, MrEarl said:

I think what Matt means is he's going to check and see how many old Guide headlights he has so he and Benjamin can start a business of repoping 12V GUIDE headlights. Then they'll make sure the judges know to take away points for incorrect headlights, thus making Matt and Benjamin instant  millionaires. Sounds legit, can I get in on it.

 

I don't know about repopping headlights, but if I found a pair of 1956 T3 bulbs, I would bake the glass lens off and put them on a H4 halogent bulb conversion kit. That way if the bulb ever burns out, I just need to crawl up into the wheel well and replace the bulb and not the seal beam...

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I drive the 56 with one original T3 and one older standard bulb.  The light is yellow. And it is lost in the bright headlights of the on coming cars. But so it is on all my cars, including the 2013. If I'm on a road without other cars I find the 56 lights to be just as effective as the headlights on the other old cars I have. 

 

I think the bigger issue for night driving is all the folks with misaligned headlights today.  If it's not the people riding inches from your back bumper, or the people with new vehicles and a bag of groceries in the back that causes the headlights to look like high brights as they approach you, it's the titans in their suv's & pickup trucks with several sets of lights up front for bragging rights.  Honestly, I cannot imagine how it makes sense to anyone to blind the people driving towards you at 40 MPH or more.  When I started to get people flashing their brights at me in the Regal, I adjusted the headlights to aim downward a little bit.  It made no real difference to me behind the wheel, and have not had a warning flash in over a year now.   

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Back when the T-3s were in use, they were decent products, as were other similar brands of headlights.  It could also be that at each yearly state inspection, you'd get the headlight aim checked and adjusted, if needed.   As for the beam pattern, we might see some differences between the older and newer headlights, but nothing more as they all were supposed to be at the top of their game, back then.  AND, we didn't usually know any better!

 

The other observed issue is that unless a car was on "high beams", there generally we no issues with visibility.  The light was more spread than on current vehicles, for example.  The wattages of the lamps has not really increased, but better reflector science and bulb placements have given us what we now have.  Incandescent to halogen got us "whiter" light, plus better beam patterns.

 

Even so, it seemed to be that we thought we had better headlights than what we really did.  Traffic density was less intense at night, for many areas.  It also seems that pavement marks were more visible than in modern times, too!  With the newer projector beam and their defined horizontal beam patter, if the vehicle hits a dip, when it exits the dip it'll look like they just flashed their "high beams" at you!  THAT takes some getting used to! 

 

T-3s have been in repro for a decade or more!  Fusicks had them first, as I recall.  Not sure which model year of T-3 they equate with, though.

 

I saw a Jeep CJ-7 the other night.  LED round headlights.  A row of 4 LEDs in each light on each side.  Looked interesting! 

 

NTX5467

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3 hours ago, Beemon said:

 

I don't know about repopping headlights, but if I found a pair of 1956 T3 bulbs, I would bake the glass lens off and put them on a H4 halogent bulb conversion kit. That way if the bulb ever burns out, I just need to crawl up into the wheel well and replace the bulb and not the seal beam...

 

www.vintagecarleds.com

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4 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

 

www.vintagecarleds.com

 

LEDs only belong in projector assemblies. I could go on forever about this subject but the fact of the matter is that LEDs are a one direction light source where filament bulbs are omni directional. Solid state lighting is the future but they should only be used in dome lights unless your housing is specifically designed for an LED like some new cars are. Take a look at the attachments. My mother decided she was going to swap my tail lights with some LED replacements. So before swapping them back, I took a comparison shot. The LED is on the left.

 

That isn't to say all LEDs are bad, you really have to do your research. These bulbs are probably as advanced as LED bulbs get in replicating filament lighting, but they're also very expensive. Made by Morimoto, the top projector company in the urban street race crowd. They've designed them to supposedly reflect 360 degrees. I can't really speak for them other than the name Morimoto really is the best when it comes to projector conversions. And speaking of, this is the end game for current technology.

 

The only issue is how expensive the technology is, and that they don't look like seal beams lol. But the payout is the best lighting possible. You can probably do it yourself for much cheaper if you're knowledgeable and patient enough, but thought I'd share. I've already done some research into this type of thing.

LEDcomp1.jpg

LEDcomp2.jpg

Edited by Beemon (see edit history)
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Somewhere in the shop, I have a large plastic container full of used (tested) T3 bulbs.   There was a small demand for them 20 years ago and probably before someone started reproducing them.  Today I don't know if they are worth the price of shipping.   All I have are for the 4 bulb (small) headlights.

Edited by Barney Eaton (see edit history)
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The KEY to the LED signal light replacement items, it seems ,is the configuration of the LEDs when installed.  Some have the LEDs configured in a drum shape and others aren't that way.  The first ones I saw on weekend cable car shows had about 5 long rectangular panels which were inserted through the light housing hole before the socket was installed.  There has to be a correct interaction with the housing's reflector for best results.  In that orientation, using a flat panel of LEDs would be better than a different 1156/1157 bulb replacement.  "Red" LEDS for stop/tail light functions, not "white" ones, has been mentioned, too.

 

The first LED headlights I heard of were in HummVees in the Iraq war.  TruckLite (I believe) made them and they were about $400/each?  They had about 7 big LEDs.  In looking at the videos (from the driver's seat) in the Vintagecarleds.com website, the beam pattern is a little "different".  I would have liked to see how they did on 2-lane blacktop night driving rather than on city streets with a good bit of ambient light.  Having the car drive up to a darkened wall so we could see how the beam pattern progresses as the vehicle gets closer to the wall!  THAT would have been a much better sales video, to me.

 

I have not driven a newer car with the LED array headlights.  I don't know how they look or perform, for the driver's vision.  There are many possibilities of performance/styling optimization, which was only dreamed about in the earlier 1960s by USA designers.

 

NTX5467

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In looking around for DynaFlow information, I happened across what appears to be the definitive 1959 Buick restoration website . . . 1fine59.com  .  In that website, there were some shots of the assembly of the grille/front end, with a picture of all four headlights "blazin'" after installation.  The source of the repro T-3 headlights was www.lectriclimited.com  On that website, in the headlight section, is a graphic of the variations of T-3 headlights, 7" and 5.75" models.  The variations are subtle, but really stand out if you know what you're looking at, as to the lens graphics.  There are also some other products that might be of interest, too, but I'll leave those determinations to others.  Not an endorsement, just a mention of another possible source of items many might need.  Nor can I attest to the accuracy of the information provided on the graphics.  Might there be other websites with similar or better information on T-3 headlights?

 

(2 hrs later update)

 

I found a YouTube video by SteveHotRod (YouTube.com/watch?v=pEmltAXO0cY) where he does a visual tutorial on T-3 headlights.  Plus what he claims "T-3" means (I always thought it had to do with the "3" "tabs" where the on-car headlight aiming machine attached and aligned on the vehicle for more accurate headlight "machine" adjustments ).  Per his explanation, it makes some sense at first, but considering that there ARE adjustment screws for the horizontal and lateral adjustments, I consider my original orientation to possibly be more correct).  Still, a good video explanation of the model year differences.  Again, I'm not sure if what's presented is accurate.

 

There ARE many other items I found via Google searches and YouTube links.  Plus T-3s for sale on eBay.  Much of the information has to do with Chevrolets, but other GM cars should be similar, I suspect.  One graphic I found on a Tri-Five Chevrolet forum came from LectricLimited.

 

There's ALSO a video on HotRod.com of sawing the lens from a burned-out T-3 and attaching it to a H4 reflector for a German H4 light with a T-3 lens on it.  On p29-43 of the OctaneLighting.com website's headlight listings, the 7" headlight section (stated to be for 55-57 Chevrolets) which also has some 6V H4 lights listed, plus the normal H4 lights, LED headlights, and "modern" LED-augmented headlights.

 

ONE thing the HotRod arcticle mentions is to run H4 headlights via a relay set-up.  This has two benefits.  One is that you get full battery voltage to the bulbs AND it protects the vintage harness from durability issues with the "higher wattage" of the H4 bulbs (that's their claim).  LOTS of options! 

 

Happy Thanksgiving,

NTX5467

Edited by NTX5467 (see edit history)
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