Guest Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I'm nearing the end of a restoration project. (pics attached) I've enjoyed most of it, and have come a long way in less than a year. I am retired, and can spend most of my time on it. What has been frustrating is the length of time that it takes to get "farmed out" items completed and returned to me. I almost immediately started sending the chrome out, and most of that was back in 6 months. A generator rebuild took 4 1/2 months, horns repair 4 months ( the mega phones and caps were already done when I sent the horns out), side apron fabrication 3 months, top hinges 4 months, some trim repair 4 months, etc. I was afraid to send some things to some of the older well known names, as their reputation for slowness made me wonder if they (or I) would live to see the item finished. Part of me says that skilled workers in any trade have always been hard to find, and that they will be booked solid IF found. I realize that "If it's fast and cheap, it won't be good." Nevertheless, being a "Type A", who likes to "get with it" once started, this is the one aspect of the process that sort of got to me. I felt like I had given control of my project's progress over to others at times. I can now appreciate why professional restoration shops would want to do everything possible "in house." ( I didn't have a disgruntled customer breathing down my neck.) So... has the ageing/passing of various skilled craftsman in our hobby made it more difficult to get specialized work completed on a timely basis, or has it "always been this way?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger914 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 LOOKS GREAT I can only speak to the past 35 years so I don't know if it has always been this way. Have observed that things that get sent out of town take forever to get back and the length of time for things turned over to shops in town can be shortened by bringing doughnuts for everyone in the shop several times a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphicar BUYER Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) If you call a shop of any flavor and they can get you in right away, probably a reason for that. If they say 6 months, there is also a reason for that. In the lasts 10 months I lost 2 dear friends, one was also my upholstery guy of 20+ years and the other was also my body guy of 15 years. Both always had a long waiting list for good reason. Now I can't find replacement upholstery or body guys (Looking up into the heavens.... Damn it Blaine and John! and pardon the french, but it is apropos and not strong enough ... ---- CANCER!). If you have your go to guys, be patient and thankful. Edited September 26, 2016 by Peter Gariepy removed profanity (see edit history) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I have had this problem with paint jobs. One took the guy 5 years, I almost forgot that I owned the car. The rat craze isn't just a fad, its a a necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Five years to paint a car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 If I couldn't do 90% of the work myself (minus chrome and stitching interior) I wouldn't own any old cars. Don't have the money or patients to farm out the projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 4 hours ago, 31 Caddy said: I'm nearing the end of a restoration project. (pics attached) I've enjoyed most of it, and have come a long way in less than a year. Your Cadillac looks spectacular, congratulations! Great to see such a beautiful Full Classic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, poci1957 said: Your Cadillac looks spectacular, congratulations! Great to see such a beautiful Full Classic Thanks very much for your kind post. It will go for interior and top probably next week. Still waiting for the running board trim and a few small items. The trunk is a sedan trunk that is too large for the car, but will come in handy. Keeping my eyes open for a lowboy...... Again, much appreciated, and I love the green on your Tin Indian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 hour ago, 31 Caddy said: Thanks very much for your kind post. It will go for interior and top probably next week. Still waiting for the running board trim and a few small items. The trunk is a sedan trunk that is too large for the car, but will come in handy. Keeping my eyes open for a lowboy...... Again, much appreciated, and I love the green on your Tin Indian! Thanks for that complement. Will you be getting a black top and black leather interior? How long did the upholsterer tell you it will take, if I might ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 57 minutes ago, poci1957 said: Thanks for that complement. Will you be getting a black top and black leather interior? How long did the upholsterer tell you it will take, if I might ask? Although they may appear black in the picture, the fenders are actually a very dark green, With that in mind, the top will also be dark green/nearly black. The interior leather will be a gray/green - hard to describe - called Willow Green. I tried to stay away from the usual tan top used with greens, as it always appears dingy to my eye. We'll see what happens. The interior man is a local that has done work for me in the past. He said around 4 weeks, and that the longest he's kept one was 6 weeks. He is a one man shop, but tries to stay on a car, once started. I was fortunate that I was ready at a good time for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Very nice car, I think the dark green fenders with the body color, will look stunning in the bright sun. How do the 30-31 Cad roadsters drive compared to the Packard's of the same year? I have not driven a early Cad roadster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said: Very nice car, I think the dark green fenders with the body color, will look stunning in the bright sun. How do the 30-31 Cad roadsters drive compared to the Packard's of the same year? I have not driven a early Cad roadster. Obviously, I've driven this car very little ( around the local area, but did get up to 50mph) as it was a total basket case when purchased. The previous owner had it for 25 years, and managed to have the engine professionally rebuilt, and completed part of the chassis. I mainly bought it because of the excellent engine, as so many of these restorations are really cosmetic only. It seems to drive nicely, similar to the 31 V8 sedan that I owned. I don't have any experience with Packards. I would love to own a '34 Super 8 or V12 coupe, but they are out of range for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 I am just guessing that the Cads are a little more nimble. The Packard's are a heavy car. Engine has great power. They ride smooth, but you can feel the weight of the car driving them. I like the looks of the Cad roadsters, they are a bigger car. Some of the other makes of cars, have great styling. But are to small in the interior. Early 30's cars are small and narrow in the front seating for the most part. A 34 Packard in any body style is a good looking car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said: I am just guessing that the Cads are a little more nimble. The Packard's are a heavy car. Engine has great power. They ride smooth, but you can feel the weight of the car driving them. I like the looks of the Cad roadsters, they are a bigger car. Some of the other makes of cars, have great styling. But are to small in the interior. Early 30's cars are small and narrow in the front seating for the most part. A 34 Packard in any body style is a good looking car. This is splitting hairs, and I mention it only for the benefit of other forum readers, as I expect that you are using the word "roadster" in the generic sense. A '31 Cadillac roadster would have conventional doors, snap in side curtains, and a different top as the main differences. My car being a "Convertible Coupe" has suicide doors and roll up side windows. I prefer those two features, however the roadster version is much prettier with the top down, IMHO. The convertible coupe top is sort of "all piled" up when it is down, while the roadster looks very clean. Edited September 24, 2016 by Guest (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 I know the difference between a roadster and a convertible coupe. 1931 was the last year Packard made a roadster. But they did call their convertible coupes in the following year/years, a coupe roadster if I remember correct. Before dropping the name roadster. You have a very nice convertible coupe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_in_nh Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Back on topic. Projects always take longer than estimated. Always. Unforseen issues: death, lack of help, quality of parts, shipping woes, etc., etc. It is not like one can run down to the corner parts store when the remaining specialty clip crumbles due to age. Sometimes items have to be made from scratch. Research on materials, methods, tools needed, the list can go on and on. Case in point for me: a fellow forum member wanted his non-supercharged Auburn distributor recurved to supercharged specifications, using a single point breaker plate instead of the unobtanium dual point breaker plate. Had to machine custom made items to make it work, etc. Took way longer than originally estimated. Not everyday that one can find correct parts in their inventory. I also spent time recovering from a back injury due to installing two window AC units for an elderly neighbor. Setbacks can and will happen. Communication is key between client and the shop doing the work. Especially if the client is not mechanically inclined. You have to teach them, in some cases, so they understand the issues at hand. It is very easy to exceed time / cost when caring for these old girls. Sitting there and griping about it will not do anyone any good. Have a cup of tea and let it be.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 18 hours ago, Digger914 said: LOOKS GREAT I can only speak to the past 35 years so I don't know if it has always been this way. Have observed that things that get sent out of town take forever to get back and the length of time for things turned over to shops in town can be shortened by bringing doughnuts for everyone in the shop several times a week. A friend was bringing donuts and coffee for everyone in the shop whenever he went to see the progress and was told by management to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Your Cadillac is beautiful, well done! Be sure to post pictures after it gets trimmed, bet it'll be a stunner. Getting the upholstery done in 4 weeks is lightning quick! It's funny, I've seen it numerous times, it looks good now, but once it has the top on, it really becomes a car! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Stunning!! Love the colors. What a great job you are doing. That said, more than 4 months for a generator rebuild is not right. I had mine rebuilt in just a few days, and it's never worked better. Is the Cadillac generator so unique that it had to go to a specific re-builder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kings32 Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Some shops take on to much or they take there time to run up the cost. I hear about years to do a paint job ,,,,REALLY .Talked to one guy last year at Hershey had a early car was ready for paint just wanted it painted $ 20000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 13 minutes ago, kings32 said: Some shops take on to much or they take there time to run up the cost. I hear about years to do a paint job ,,,,REALLY .Talked to one guy last year at Hershey had a early car was ready for paint just wanted it painted $ 20000 Apparently the car wasn't ready for paint! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kings32 Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 He told me it was ready and the fellow didn't even see the car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Nice to see a fellow do his own restoration and a nice job at that. A true automotive hobbyist . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 56 minutes ago, kings32 said: He told me it was ready and the fellow didn't even see the car I can't see how anyone would give an estimate without even looking at the car. Most shops don't even like to paint a car that someone else did the prep work. How can they even guarantee the work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, West Peterson said: Stunning!! Love the colors. What a great job you are doing. That said, more than 4 months for a generator rebuild is not right. I had mine rebuilt in just a few days, and it's never worked better. Is the Cadillac generator so unique that it had to go to a specific re-builder? West, thank you. I don't know the answer. I don't think there is anything special about it. A local shop took 2 months to tell me that the armature was no good, and they couldn't fix it, so I actually had the generator tied up for 6 1/2 months total. The shop that fixed it did indeed do a complete rebuild ( see picture) as opposed to a simple "repair." The armature was rewound as well as the field coils, and the generator was run on a test stand with varying loads. I am most pleased with the work, but as per my original post, it was frustrating to have to wait on an item that long. That generator is driven off of an accessory case, and the mounting pad is not one for which a blank off plate can easily be fabricated. I had to locate another generator (unfortunately, also inoperative) so that I could plug the hole and be able to run the engine/move the car. For the other readers, I don't wish to come off as a complainer. I guess, much like an old house, things always take longer, and cost more than you expect. This isn't my first restoration, but it IS my first full restoration of a car for which you can't just "pick up the catalog." I simply am curious as to whether there is a trend in the hobby towards it becoming more and more difficult to get specialized work done for the older machines. Another thing I learned is that I would never attempt a restoration of a brass era, or a "one off" car as I would be forced to farm out too much fabrication. I admire the owners who have the capabilities to machine/repair parts themselves. Edited September 24, 2016 by Guest (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger914 Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 7 hours ago, Joe in Canada said: A friend was bringing donuts and coffee for everyone in the shop whenever he went to see the progress and was told by management to stop. Understandable if he was interrupting work, I usually drop them at the front desk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 6 hours ago, West Peterson said: Stunning!! Love the colors. What a great job you are doing. That said, more than 4 months for a generator rebuild is not right. I had mine rebuilt in just a few days, and it's never worked better. Is the Cadillac generator so unique that it had to go to a specific re-builder? It doesn't much matter.. Finding armature rewinders is difficult. At least 12-14 years ago I needed an armature for a Moline Model D generator (late teens tractor) rewound. I was lucky to find, what I think is/was a one man shop, in Chicago who did a fabulous job and did it quickly. If something is really off the wall weird for which a suitable commutator can't be found you're just SOL....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Yes it is getting harder to find talented people with the knowledge to rebuild earlier car parts. A friend had a main go in a 1930 Cadillac 353 and was one year and ten months getting it back on the road. To make a long story short the engine was sent to a shop that has been in business over fifty years and known for early engine work. But before it went there the shop had changed hands and with new workers that were inexperienced with early engines. Everything from bad babitt had to be redone, wrong angle valves, roller lifter pins replaced to the oil tube being broken off then glued back on with JB weld. To name a few things that had to be redone by a second shop. So much for an engine shop being in business for over fifty years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Has any one heard whether the AACA decided to discuss the topic "restoring cars for a living" I know that they have a panel of experts at the fall meet that pick different topics to talk about. That would be a good one, this topic would fit right in with that one as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 While there is a demand for people who can do fabrication, paint, upholstery, "restoring cars for a living" is not for the faint of heart. If someone is interested in working on old cars, I would recommend finding your niche, whether it be paint or trim work or panel beating, then make sure you live in an area where there's a market for such work. As far as owning a restoration shop, or even doing complete restorations on your own, there are a lot of rewards and a lot of downsides. What is not mentioned often is that restoration shops become victim to lawsuits, maybe some of them are justified and maybe some of them aren't, but a rich disgruntled customer can tie a shop up in court for a while, and right or wrong, cost the shop high legal fees. It's not always easy to keep a customer gruntled these days. Two other things I'd point out. If you enjoy working on your own cars, and think you want to start working on other people's cars, then the transition from hobby to job can be a tough one. There's a lot of difference between doing work casually on your own schedule, versus making sure there's work to do to put food on the table. Second thing, if you are going to do it as a living, then you have to make it a business. You have to charge for everything, you have to be careful with any "pro bono" work for friends, you have to be firm on money matters and get paid for your work. It's a different atmosphere from being a hobby. I know some people who've been very successful in the field, but I've also seen poor management of time and money and subsequent disillusionment with the entire business. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Yes, services do take longer now, because there are fewer people doing what is now specialty work. When automotive "repair" went from true repair to parts changeout work, a lot of the rebuilding service shops went away. Decades ago, having brake shoes arced, distributors recurved and/or rebushed, speedometers repaired, etc., were services to be found in most cities, and there could often be more than one shop to choose from. Our cars were newer then, and it was easier to find parts in stock somewhere. Even wrecking yard parts were easier to find, since there were more of our cars around in the yards. I recently had a bumper center rechromed on one of my cars. The center had been straightened and rechromed in 1980, back when the chrome platers made daily delivery runs to body shops and were turning around jobs in a week. Now, chrome plating shops are much harder to find, so the car sits for three weeks while I pull the bumper center and deliver it to a shop an hour away. The same goes for a distributor that needed to be rebushed, it used to be a local job done at the independent parts store, now it goes to a rebuilder out of state for turnaround in about a month. There are still great shops and people doing work as good as anyone can recall, but they're a lot harder to find. As others have mentioned, once the word is out on a good shop, there's usually a pretty long line at the door. It always pays to stay engaged with the collector car community, as that's how you'll find the good shops. You won't find that ace metal fabricator on Yelp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Something is tickling a synapse that the boosted ACD cars used a Delco-Remy distributer. Wonder if a dual point plate from a 58 'vette would fit an Auburn distributer.... (Where there is a will, there's a lawyer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 (edited) It is certainly different than in the 60's and 70's. In the 80's when I needed a water pump and a distributor re bushed I by passed all the automotive places and went straight to a local machine shop. There was no discussion of what the parts were from, just the need for bushings to be made and installed. Three days later both were done and very reasonable as well. More recently I needed a "differential cross pin pinion spacer". My original one is two different sizes. A few thousands bigger one way than the other so that you can turn it over when the ends of the axles or the spacer becomes worn. After 85 years mine was worn enough that the axles had lots of end play. I took the spacer in to a local shop that does Automatic transmissions and differentials and asked if they had a spacer like this but thicker. He went into the shop and came back with one out of a Toyota. Same length but .077" thicker. Fit perfectly and solved my problem. Edited September 25, 2016 by Guest (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 As a car builder/restorer you are very dependent on other companies, tire stores, glass shops, paint stores, chrome shops and so on. Small businesses face a lot of problems, and can get caught in the middle of other BS. If the people who own the other businesses want to cause a person/shop owner problems, it would be very easy to do. I understand that you need to charge for your time as a shop owner. But that is a fine line, is a problem with parts the customers fault? What if the problems you have with parts are given to you on purpose. Can other businesses target people by using your business as the tool? If you were to charge a customer for all of your time, and a lot of your time was spent dealing with problems that should not be there. Could other people bring financial harm to your customers, because they do not like who they are? Or they are wanting to give your shop a bad image, of over charging people. Starting to charge for all of your time can be very dangerous, it can led you down a road of entrapment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capngrog Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 On 9/24/2016 at 5:45 AM, tom_in_nh said: Communication is key between client and the shop doing the work. Especially if the client is not mechanically inclined. You have to teach them, in some cases, so they understand the issues at hand. It is very easy to exceed time / cost when caring for these old girls. Sitting there and griping about it will not do anyone any good. Have a cup of tea and let it be.... Communication between the shop and customer is VITAL, in my opinion. I am usually a very patient man; however, when some one commits to do work for me, I expect it to be ready in the agreed-upon period of time. I understand that "stuff happens", but when it happens and my job is affected, I need to know as soon as possible. I hate it when I call a shop to find out if my job has been finished, only to be told that it will be delayed because of something that occurred a month ago ... blah, blah, blah etc. It is also incumbent upon the client to let a shop know if circumstances on his/her end have changed such that the job will be affected. If a cost estimate must be revised, I, as the customer, expect to be notified right away, not after the work has been completed ... at extra cost. Have a slug o' rum and let it hum ... Cheers, Grog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 What if a guys rents a shop, and has three spots for cars that he can work on. And then gets three customers, with cars that they want some stuff done on. Great, can not ask for anything better then that, right? What if the shop owner does not know that all of his customers know each other. What if the shop owner does not know the guy who owns the building also knows his customers. Now as a small shop, you are tied up. Problem with this car, wrong part on that car, owner go's away for two weeks. Trouble getting paid, land lord wants rent. Your income in now 100% controlled. And you can be pushed closer and closer to being forced to go out of business, and sell off you assets to the very people who did it to you. Or go down the road of drinking the kool aid. There are a lot of reasons that it is getting hard to find good skilled people in any trade. Small businesses are prayed on in this country. And until people want to have a honest conversation about it, it will just get worse. This is a great hobby/industry full of so many great people and cars. The skill and talent of builders/restorers is off the chart. But how we treat small businesses is gross. And it is not every where, bad people are just that, bad people. But if things were talked about, people would have a much harder time harming small businesses in this wonderful trade/hobby/industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 My Nephew did most of the work on my Park ave convertible and it was major; engine, transmission, springs, shocks, brakes, a whole ton of stuff. It was modern, so kind of foreign to me and I wanted to give him a major project learning experience. So the deal was to invoice time and material every week and I would pay. My part was pretty easy. Getting the itemized invoice was a killer. That is where a lot of shops fall down on the long term stuff. That is my specialty, on the phone or in the doorway every week ready to pay. "What did you do?" "Nothing?" Now, that is the kind of thing that makes ME look bad. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Another point is how Free Trade is affecting the old car hobby to-day. In the 80s there were plenty of tooly shops around if you needed a part made or repaired. Now a days most have gone belly up or forced to close not being able to compete with China. This reduced the number of shops that would take on small jobs and driving up the price. I retired in 09 and hit the auctions buying everything from automatic mills to a 3,000 LB. welding table at a fraction of the price with nothing made in China. Now I do not have to wait six weeks for a repair job and do what I can myself. Only problem now is floor space. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 On 9/24/2016 at 11:28 PM, Tinindian said: It is certainly different than in the 60's and 70's. In the 80's when I needed a water pump and a distributor re bushed I by passed all the automotive places and went straight to a local machine shop. There was no discussion of what the parts were from, just the need for bushings to be made and installed. More recently I needed a "differential cross pin pinion spacer". I took the spacer in to a local shop that does Automatic transmissions and differentials and asked if they had a spacer like this but thicker. He went into the shop and came back with one out of a Toyota. Same length but .077" thicker. Fit perfectly and solved my problem. This is of course the way to handle parts for an early car--no parts store will have anything for a prewar car but if you walk into a bearing supply house and ask for "one of these" bearings and seals you often get the right part and reasonable. At least you used to--as Joe In Canada says since there is less industry to supply the machine tool shops and industrial supply houses have dried up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphicar BUYER Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 I liked the way is yoosta be, (probably talking with a older guy with greasy hands...) " I need a single wire 85 Amp GM alternator" ... (20 seconds later) "OK here ya go" Now... (probably talking with a 18 yr old who doesn't know crap about cars) " I need a single wire GM alternator" What's it on? 1964 Amphicar "what" It's not in your book. We have everything OK, 1964 Amphicar That's not in our computer I told you! ... OK try any 1970 GM car Does it have AC? NO Does it have power brakes? IT DOESN"T MATTER! Pick any answer until you get to the alternator... I need to know the correct answers Pick any answer, they are all correct Does it have .... wait, where did he go? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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