It looks like a Packard

[JACK M]

I saw one of these in Viet Nam on a recent trip at Ho Che Mens place in Hanoi.

It was his capital and home for many years.

He had this and a couple of other cars. The placard said that this was gift from Russia or something like that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Other-Makes-/121897644578?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c61aa7222:g:8bUAAOSw5dNWpEFh&item=121897644578

 

I took these.

On a side note, They let us walk thru his tomb and lo and behold they had him all propped up and on display, no cameras and lots of soldiers making sure no one took pictures.

 

[Matt Harwood]

Russian ZIL?

[keiser31]

Russian ZIL?

Or Zis and the grey/green one next to it is a Russian Pobeda

Edited February 17, 2016 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[RansomEli]

It's probably a Russian Ziv.

 

 

 

 

[keiser31]

Well, the ad says Zis 110....

[Matt Harwood]

The Russians bought Packard's tooling and essentially continued building Packards into, I believe, the 1970s. The earliest ZIS vehicles actually look a lot like 1938 Oldsmobiles. Depending on the time frame, the company is ZiS (Zavod imeni Stalina) or ZiL (Zavod imeni Likhachova), which literally means "factory named for Stalin" or "factory named for Likhachov" which was the factory where they were built, and the car is called the ZIS (early) or ZIL (after Stalin's death). They were typically reserved for high-ranking Party members and other people of importance. It wouldn't be surprising if the Soviets gave one to Ho Chi Minh, as his allegiance was pretty well established and something like a Lincoln probably wouldn't have looked too good to his allies in the USSR.

 

ZiL vehicles are apparently still in production and still very ugly.

 

EDIT: I see that most of this information is in the eBay ad. I should have looked there first.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[emjay]

Wasn't there an article in Antique Automobile recently on this vehicles?

[RansomEli]

If we could only get the Russians to replicate Deusenbergs....

[60FlatTop]

Probably got a note that says "To Ho, From Russia with love". At least I didn't wonder if there was a Thai Ho in the collection.

 

All Castro got was a 4 cylinder diesel to put in his old Chevy.

 

Bernie

[Bleach]

For the asking price I'd rather have a real Packard plus real Packards are better looking anyway.

[CarlLaFong]

The Russians bought Packard's tooling and essentially continued building Packards into, I believe, the 1970s. The earliest ZIS vehicles actually look a lot like 1938 Oldsmobiles. Depending on the time frame, the company is ZiS (Zavod imeni Stalina) or ZiL (Zavod imeni Likhachova), which literally means "factory named for Stalin" or "factory named for Likhachov" which was the factory where they were built, and the car is called the ZIS (early) or ZIL (after Stalin's death). They were typically reserved for high-ranking Party members and other people of importance. It wouldn't be surprising if the Soviets gave one to Ho Chi Minh, as his allegiance was pretty well established and something like a Lincoln probably wouldn't have looked too good to his allies in the USSR.

 

ZiL vehicles are apparently still in production and still very ugly.

 

EDIT: I see that most of this information is in the eBay ad. I should have looked there first.

The story of the Russians obtaining the Packard tooling has been pretty thoroughly debunked by quite a few Packard experts. Close inspections of remaining ZILs, ZISs and others show them to be pretty good knockoffs but few, if any, parts interchange with genuine Packards

[Matt Harwood]

The story of the Russians obtaining the Packard tooling has been pretty thoroughly debunked by quite a few Packard experts. Close inspections of remaining ZILs, ZISs and others show them to be pretty good knockoffs but few, if any, parts interchange with genuine Packards

 

Dang, I didn't know that. Don't I look silly now?

 

Actually, I think the idea of the Russians simply copying Packards (and doing a lousy job of it) is a lot more interesting. I know they copied Buick engines for a while in the 1930s and perhaps even for the first ZIS limousines, which had a vague Oldsmobuick look.

[Bleach]

There was an article in one of AACA magazines a few years ago about it and it too debunked the alleged Packard tooling.

[John_S_in_Penna]

The story of the Russians obtaining the Packard tooling has been pretty thoroughly debunked by quite a few Packard experts. Close inspections of remaining ZILs, ZISs and others show them to be pretty good knockoffs but few, if any, parts interchange with genuine Packards

 

Agreed.  From what I have read from a former Communist general,

the Communist countries were able to develop very few ideas on their own.

Without private property and its inducement to excel, few original ideas came to fruition.

Almost all of their technology was, instead, stolen from the West.

They would form joint ventures with American or European companies,

and as much as 90% of their staff would be espionage agents,

who would then steal or illegally copy thousands of documents. 

Sometimes the designs would be modified slightly to conceal the resemblance.

Outright theft, in some form or another, is probably how this Communist car

so closely resembles America's much-admired Packard.

 

I know one executive from a large American firm.

He went to eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall came down.

There was a factory in eastern Europe that was such a close resemblance

to his company's own factories, that even the tile on the wall looked the same! 

It was clear that the Communists had worked from stolen blueprints.

Edited February 17, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Guest]

Agreed.  From what I have read from a former Communist general,

the Communist countries were able to develop very few ideas on their own.

Without private property and its inducement to excel, few original ideas came to fruition.

Almost all of their technology was, instead, stolen from the West.

They would form joint ventures with American or European companies,

and as much as 90% of their staff would be espionage agents,

who would then steal or illegally copy thousands of documents. 

Sometimes the designs would be modified slightly to conceal the resemblance.

Outright theft, in some form or another, is probably how this Communist car

so closely resembles America's much-admired Packard.

 

I know one executive from a large American firm.

He went to eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall came down.

There was a factory in eastern Europe that was such a close resemblance

to his company's own factories, that even the tile on the wall looked the same! 

It was clear that the Communists had worked from stolen blueprints.

Here is another clone the USSR did in about the same time frame;

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Tu-4-2008-Monino.jpg/1280px-Tu-4-2008-Monino.jpg

Can you say B-29

Here is a German type 21 ( 1943-1945 ) Electroboot:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/U-Boot_Typ_XXI_U-2540_%28%22Wilhelm_Bauer%22%29_%289447881765%29.jpg/1280px-U-Boot_Typ_XXI_U-2540_%28%22Wilhelm_Bauer%22%29_%289447881765%29.jpg

The Russians made 235 copies known as the Whiskey class

Edited February 18, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[DavidAU]

I believe they copied the space shuttle technology too............but that idea didn't fly so good.

[Bleach]

I believe they copied the space shuttle technology too............but that idea didn't fly so good.

Here it is.....

[Bleach]

Well, the ad says Zis 110....

 

The Russians even copied Packard's model designation. There was a Packard 110.

[capngrog]

The Russians copied the B-29 down to the last rivet, and I'm sure that they created the tooling for their production.  They also copied the C-47, not to mention the Space Shuttle, which they called the Buran.  That's not to take away from some of the technological marvels they've produced, such as the world's largest heavier- than-air aircraft, the Antonov AN-225 (as shown in Bleach's post with the Buran perched on its back). 

 

Cheers,

Grog

[Brass is Best]

The Russians had the Ford Model A chassis in production under a light duty truck up into the 1980's as well.

[John_S_in_Penna]

....That's not to take away from some of the technological marvels they've produced, such as the world's largest heavier- than-air aircraft, the Antonov AN-225 (as shown in Bleach's post with the Buran perched on its back).... 

 

Grog, please DO feel free to "take away from the

technological marvels they've [claimed to] produce."

Another interesting facet is that the Communists

have CLAIMED to be the originators of many things,

when they actually were not.  That's another insight

from the writings of the Communist general, who defected

to the United States before the collapse of the evil empire,

and exposed numerous Communist secrets.

 

And yes, that part of the world was absolutely, 100% dedicated

to the overthrow of the civilized West, especially the United States.

They worked at that goal every single day of their existence.

[60FlatTop]

I think that space shuttle picture is the Photoshopped version. Here's the actual Russian one;

 

 

The knock off Packard's were pretty good tough. well, except the carburetor. I heard they had a hard time keeping it from stalin. Ask the bourgeois who owns one.

Bernie

Edited February 18, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I peruse Ebay on a regular basis to see what's out there that I cant afford.

I am seeing many cars in Russia, the sellers are way optimistic in my opinion and I don't recall seeing many American enthusiasts falling all over these VERY high priced offerings.

 

Some old car salesman I used to know that taught me a lot about lying used to say "There is a butt for every seat"

[60FlatTop]

 

Some old car salesman I used to know that taught me a lot about lying used to say "There is a butt for every seat"

 

Boy, making that one inoffensive takes away a lot.

[JACK M]

Well, His lips were moving....  LOL

[60FlatTop]

I brought up George Carlin's original seven words and ass wasn't one of them so it's probably not that offensive. I've always liked the play of dual meaning words and this is a good one. It contains no ambiguity whatsoever. And it's one you can say with a smile. Not like my most frequent saying "the eternal search for the uninformed buyer" which is kind of exploitative and a little mean, but all "nice" words by their own right.

 

Oh, it was kind of fun plugging those seven original words in. I smiled when I did it.

Bernie

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

Dang, I didn't know that. Don't I look silly now?

 

Actually, I think the idea of the Russians simply copying Packards (and doing a lousy job of it) is a lot more interesting. I know they copied Buick engines for a while in the 1930s and perhaps even for the first ZIS limousines, which had a vague Oldsmobuick look.

USSR copied Studebaker trucks and Boeing B-29 in the same manner.

The Katyusha rocket launchers were often on Studebaker trucks or copies of Studebaker 

Edited February 20, 2016 by JamesBulldogMiller55Buick (see edit history)

[capngrog]

60FlatTop,

 

LMAO about that "Space Shuttle" photo!!  I am in awe of the person who created that thing.  Do you have any details of it?  It looks like it uses some sort of panel truck as a basis and may even be road worthy with the wings folded.  That would be a great float for a local parade.

 

Since the last Space Shuttle to be built, Endeavor, was built in 1991, I guess the entire surviving fleet of Space Shuttles qualify to be entered in an AACA event  .

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

 

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

I think that space shuttle picture is the Photoshopped version. Here's the actual Russian one;

 

 

The knock off Packard's were pretty good tough. well, except the carburetor. I heard they had a hard time keeping it from stalin. Ask the bourgeois who owns one.

Bernie

 

 

I brought up George Carlin's original seven words and ass wasn't one of them so it's probably not that offensive. I've always liked the play of dual meaning words and this is a good one. It contains no ambiguity whatsoever. And it's one you can say with a smile. Not like my most frequent saying "the eternal search for the uninformed buyer" which is kind of exploitative and a little mean, but all "nice" words by their own right.

 

Oh, it was kind of fun plugging those seven original words in. I smiled when I did it.

Bernie

it looks like a 67-72 Chevy or GMC panel truck

[JACK M]

Love the fuel cells.

[60FlatTop]

The Russian shuttle was over in the next county to the west of me. Crossing that county line is like going into another world.

 

Anyway, the guy had a yard sale going on and he was leaning back in a lawn chair sipping a can of beer. I was looking at a pair of steer horns that I thought would look good on the '69 Fleetwood I was driving at the time. He saw me looking and stretched out some while he said "Yep, I shot that deer myself." I still have them.

 

I like the shuttles, well just about any space vehicle, American and Russian. Not many people were around the day they brought this one in.

I'll see if I can find my picture of the Russian version.

 

Bernie

Edited February 20, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Dang, I didn't know that. Don't I look silly now?

 

Actually, I think the idea of the Russians simply copying Packards (and doing a lousy job of it) is a lot more interesting. I know they copied Buick engines for a while in the 1930s and perhaps even for the first ZIS limousines, which had a vague Oldsmobuick look.

 

Don't feel bad.  Until the Berlin Wall fell,

it was commonly believed that Packard

had sold their dies and tooling to the Russians.

But when the Russian cars could be examined

closely, it was seen that they were inexact copies.

 

If Packard dies had been used, the copies would have

been exact, so it became clear then that the dies weren't Packard's.

[Guest prs519]

The Russian shuttle was over in the next county to the west of me. Crossing that county line is like going into another world.

 

Anyway, the guy had a yard sale going on and he was leaning back in a lawn chair sipping a can of beer. I was looking at a pair of steer horns that I thought would look good on the '69 Fleetwood I was driving at the time. He saw me looking and stretched out some while he said "Yep, I shot that deer myself." I still have them.

 

I like the shuttles, well just about any space vehicle, American and Russian. Not many people were around the day they brought this one in.

tumblr_m35foiJI6a1qzz0iho1_1280.jpg

I'll see if I can find my picture of the Russian version.

 

Bernie

[/quot

So did the guy think he had shot a deer instead of a steer? Please explain for at least one of us who is a little dim here.

e]

[60FlatTop]

I picked up the steer horns nand he said " I shot that deer myself." He didn't think he shot a deer, he KNEW he shot a deer.

 

Now, that's the next county over, but if you don't know your way around New York it's a bit like Minnesota in places:

 

Three Minnesota hunters drove into a farm yard, and one went up to ask the farmer's permission to hunt his fields. The farmer approved, on the condition that the hunters shoot an old bull that he had been planning to get rid of.

The hunter went back to the car and pulled a little gag on his buddies. He told them that the farmer was a rotten old coot who refused them permission to hunt. Then he had the driver stop when they passed the old bull. He climbed out, very deliberately took aim and shot the bull, then said, "That'll take care of the rotten old coot." Whereupon his two companions each shot a cow, commenting, "That'll REALLY take care of that rotten old coot."

Bernie

[Dandy Dave]

Dang them City Hunters. I seen it all when I was a kid on the farm. Some of them would drink all night and could not get up in the morning let alone aim to a shoot an 8 Pointer. One we call Tony the Great wanted me to help him up in a tree one time getting near dusk. Got up there, was steady for about 15 seconds, I started to walk away and whomp. There he was flat on his back. No 911 or cell phones back in them days. Took about a half an hour with me asking him did he want me to get help until he decided he was OK and got up and decided to just lean against the tree. LOL. He use to drive a 1962 Chevy Belair back when they were common everyday drivers. Dandy Dave!   

 

I picked up the steer horns nand he said " I shot that deer myself." He didn't think he shot a deer, he KNEW he shot a deer.

 

Now, that's the next county over, but if you don't know your way around New York it's a bit like Minnesota in places:

 

Three Minnesota hunters drove into a farm yard, and one went up to ask the farmer's permission to hunt his fields. The farmer approved, on the condition that the hunters shoot an old bull that he had been planning to get rid of.

The hunter went back to the car and pulled a little gag on his buddies. He told them that the farmer was a rotten old coot who refused them permission to hunt. Then he had the driver stop when they passed the old bull. He climbed out, very deliberately took aim and shot the bull, then said, "That'll take care of the rotten old coot." Whereupon his two companions each shot a cow, commenting, "That'll REALLY take care of that rotten old coot."

Bernie

Edited February 25, 2016 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)