Buying a car from out of state private seller...

[Guest Wendal]

We have never had a shipper ask us for proof of insurance, including the big boys like Interstate.

According to the seller, as long as you don't tell them they won't ask for it.

But, for $12,500??? That is not a chance I am willing to take.

[vermontboy]

RUN, do not walk, RUN. You owe the seller nothing - he lied. He does not have title to the car. If you were to try and get it registered it may very well turn up stolen in the new national database - then you lose the car - period.

If you paid him a deposit through Paypal you can get your money back - he cannot provide proof of a clear title. If not I wish you the best of luck. Do not feel bad but ALWAYS ask two things 1) request a copy of the ownership document and 2) request confirmation that the VIN number on the vehicle matches the ownership document.

[Alex D.]

I don’t know about Texas but in Maryland a bill of sale is not proof of ownership making it very difficult to title. I can write you a bill of sale for anything you want. <o:p></o:p>

From the eBay pictures, the car looks rusty. You know your skill level and how much you want to invest.<o:p></o:p>

Personally, I would pass<o:p></o:p>

[QUOTE=Wendal;1339886]***UPDATE***

I asked him to text me a picture of the title and this was his response:

"Alabama title that means hand written bill of sale, that's what i got from previous owner."

What does this mean in terms of me registering and insuring the car?

Auto shippers will not ship the car from MN to TX unless insured.

The seller suggested I don't tell them it's not insured.

But i assume they are going to want proof it's insured before they pick it up to deliver?

[60FlatTop]

Although I'd never write anything personal or try to be offensive, I'm sitting here smiling and remembering advice and old time car salesman in our area gave his kids when he was teaching them to drive. He warned the kids to always be cautious if they saw a Chrysler product on the highway near them. He claimed those people had already shown poor judgement in the past. Ummm, this is post number 44 on the topic.

Western New Yorkers remember Ray Caldwell?

Bernie

[vermontboy]

Are you referring to the "Salamanca Slammer" - pitcher, pinch-hitter, hit by a lightning bolt but still finished the game old time ball player with a penchant for getting himself in trouble ? It's an interesting story either way

[Guest Wendal]

RUN, do not walk, RUN. You owe the seller nothing - he lied. He does not have title to the car. If you were to try and get it registered it may very well turn up stolen in the new national database - then you lose the car - period.

If you paid him a deposit through Paypal you can get your money back - he cannot provide proof of a clear title. If not I wish you the best of luck. Do not feel bad but ALWAYS ask two things 1) request a copy of the ownership document and 2) request confirmation that the VIN number on the vehicle matches the ownership document.

That's good advice.

[John348]

YOU OWE HIM NOTHING!!!! Makes sense now why he ended it early, he was in a hurry to get rid of his car with the "Alabama Title" he deserves a Bronx Cheer! So I guess an "Alabama Title" is a term used for no title! I remember reading in an earlier post on this thread about the religious stuff on his site, so much for that! Being born in The Bronx long removed but it still pumps in my blood, I would have two words for him and it would not be good morning

[Guest Wendal]

I just texted him and this is what I said:

Sorry but I'm going to have to decline. On the eBay auction it said 'Alabama Title' in the description. And in the Item Specifics section it says Vehicle Title: Clear. So I was under the impression you had the actual clear title, not just a hand written bill of sale. It would be a nightmare trying to obtain the title/getting it insured and I do not feel comfortable having the car shipped without insurance protection. Good luck with it.

Why would he say he has a clear title for the car when trying to sell it when he CLEARLY did not???? Especially a car for $12,500??! Geez what the heck is the matter with some people?

[Guest Wendal]

YOU OWE HIM NOTHING!!!! Makes sense now why he ended it early, he was in a hurry to get rid of his car with the "Alabama Title" he deserves a Bronx Cheer! So I guess an "Alabama Title" is a term used for no title! I remember reading in an earlier post on this thread about the religious stuff on his site, so much for that! Being born in The Bronx long removed but it still pumps in my blood, I would have two words for him and it would not be good morning

Ya know, i was always very suspicious about him ending the auction early to sell the car to me. The bidding was up to $8,400 and climbing and still had 5 more days to go. Other chargers like his were getting bid up to $15,000 and upwards. Yet he decided to end the auction and sell it to me for $12,500?? It almost seemed too good to be true. And when it seems that way it usually is. Something told me there was a catch somewhere in this deal.

[Bleach]

I thought about that. But then again he wasn't honest about the title in the auction. That was no fault of mine. Does he deserve to be reimbursed?

OK if he wasn't up front about that then he deserves nothing.

Even from the photos I can see the car has more than just a little rust. I think it's good that circumstances went your way and that it didn't work out to get stuck with that rust bucket.

[sambarn]

So A quick word about Alabama titles. I have never heard of the 35 year rule and I got a title last year on a 77 motorcycle. So.. Alabama first began issuing titles in 1974. All vehicles prior to this date would never need a title, same for motorcycles. If this car was registered in Alabama, all that would be neccessary ( since it is prior to 1974) to legally purchase the vehicle is a handwritten bill of sale. (I once bought a 71 VW van and the owner wrote the bill of sale on the inside of ripped open cigarette pack. The teller didn't even blink as she handed me the tag.) Now here's where it gets sticky: In the late nineties a gentleman opened a business where in he would "buy" your car, create a valid Alabama registration and then "sell" your car back to you. This was Hollywood Title (named for the street they are on in Historic Homewood, an early suburb of Birmingham). His business was so successful that even cars that had shady histories were recieving new registrations and some problems occurred. The state realizing the problem could get out of hand, revised the rules requiring a physical inspection of the car by a DMV employee to verify numbers and the car must be registered by an Alabama resident with a vaild Drivers License and insurance. The cost of transport and length of time waiting has severely cut down on this practice.

As far as the 35 year rule: at Thirty Five years old, cars qualify for the Historic Vehicle tag. Their are caveats and restrictions but it cost ten bucks to transfer, 25 to regiister and is good forever. I've never put a historic tag on a post '74/pre'79 vehicle before so I'd be interested to see what happens but I hope this helps clear the air on Alabama registrations. In closing: If the car is registered in Alabama and is being sold by the original registered owner, a handwritten bill of sale is all that is legally required to register the vehicle in any state. If it's a second hand bill of sale, I know of many people who have created documents that stated the sale of a vehicle from the original registered owner directly to the modern buyer, skipping the middle guy (guy who brought it to MN). This is not legal and extremely difficult to enforce so it's both bad and is some times the simplest method of Fixing paperwork. And a car does not need to be registered to be insured. Call Hagerty or Taylor, they'll take good care of you.

[vermontboy]

" If the car is registered in Alabama and is being sold by the original registered owner, a handwritten bill of sale is all that is legally required to register the vehicle in any state."

In most states you will also require a copy of the last state registration card issued for the same reason you state in your argument in "second hand bill of sale". There has to be a state issued document for the car. And yes, most states have some work around but not like they used to. Most now require a lawyer, a knowledgeable judge (not your buddy JP down the road) and a few dollars (a friend spent the better part of a year and $5,000 obtaining a title to a long abandoned vehicle).

As Bob Dylan said "The Times, They Are A'Changin'"

[John348]

went your way and that it didn't work out to get stuck with that rust bucket.

A rust bucket with no paperwork

[Guest Wendal]

I would like to thank everyone in this thread for their good advice and for helping me avoid purchasing a potential catastrophic screw job.

[Guest Wendal]

Do you know what the irony of this thread is? When the seller realized I was getting cold feet after he revealed to me he did not have a clear title and that shipping the car here might be a problem he told me to not say anything to the auto shippers about the insurance and to join a car forum and ask how things go when it comes to shipping.

Well.....I joined the forum and got my advise.

[Bob Hill]

While it is true that Alabama does not issue a title on a 1970 car and transfers ownership via a bill of sale, your state may have different requirements for registering a car from Alabama. For example, for me to register that car in Tennessee I would need (1) a notarized bill of sale and (2) a tag receipt from where the car was registered in Alabama. Names must be the same on both the bill of sale and the tag receipt. Without both of those items, Tennessee will not issue you a title or let you register the car here.

Need to to check with your local DMV

Bob

[cahartley]

This thread fits in nicely with that one >>> http://forums.aaca.org/f169/title-old-car-one-mans-adventure-378453-2.html

My reply is #36 and I'm very interested in what the Wisconsin DMV will have to say.

[Restorer32]

I spoke with a title company in Alabama re our problem titling a trailer. They require roof of ownership, either a copy of the title or the registration card, before they will title an out of state vehicle. They also can no longer provide titles for out of state street rods.

[capngrog]

In closing: If the car is registered in Alabama and is being sold by the original registered owner, a handwritten bill of sale is all that is legally required to register the vehicle in any state.

I'm not sure that the foregoing statement is correct for "any" state, but I assume it would work for "some" states. I get muddled and sometimes conflicting responses from the Tallahassee (Florida) DMV whenever I've contacted them about titling a car I was interested in purchasing. If my potential purchase had no existing title, the DMV was usually not encouraging. By "not encouraging", I mean that they would outline the steps I must take (lots of paperwork, notaries etc.) to obtain a title. I'm sure it can be done, but as the saying goes: "Ain't nobody got time for that". My rule of thumb is that a car that I plan to purchase must have a "clear" title. What constitutes a "clear" title? In my opinion, a title free of liens in the name of the seller fits the definition of a "clear" title. I have purchased two classic vehicles here in Florida that had "clear" titles, but were not in the name of the seller. Although the clerks at the local tag agency never batted an eye when I presented this paperwork for registration/titling, I'll insist in the future that any car I intend to buy has a "clear" title in the name of the seller. I'm guessing that one reason the local tag agencies pay so little attention to the chain of ownership, is that older classic vehicles are exempt from the mileage certification requirement. Under Florida law, whenever an automobile (except for automobiles of a certain age) is sold, the mileage must be certified and declared to the State of Florida.

Last year, I purchased a 1938 Chevrolet from a dealer, but the title was not it the name of the dealer, but in the name of the former owner. The former owner had properly signed the title, but it still made me uneasy. Again, the folks at the local tag agency did not bat an eye, and issued me my registration and a title in my name "on the spot". In Florida, government operated tag agencies can issue a new title directly from their location (I don't know about privately - owned/operated tag agencies). Part of the paperwork I received with the "38 Chevy was a copy of the original title issued for the car by the State of Illinois in 1938!

Just to keep things simple in the future, I'll insist on a "clear" title. If the seller claims that it's easy to get a clear title, then I'll let him get it prior to the sale of the vehicle.

Dazed and confused by the whole process,

Grog

[Restorer32]

PA requires a Certificate of Registration (owner's card) from the owner in Alabama before they will issue a title. A Bill of Sale alone in worthless in PA. It is common practice for a dealer to "hold" a title in the original owner's name and is perfectly legal in some/most/all states.

[dan at larescorp]

You can't transfer registration in MN with a bill of sale only. That might be why the guy didn't transfer the car into his name once he got it here.

[39BuickEight]

PA requires a Certificate of Registration (owner's card) from the owner in Alabama before they will issue a title. A Bill of Sale alone in worthless in PA. It is common practice for a dealer to "hold" a title in the original owner's name and is perfectly legal in some/most/all states.

It's legal "within reason" in most states. Here in KY when GM was closing dealers a few years back, GMAC found many of them holding these titles in the trade-in owner's names even after "financing" the sales. It was all a trick to make GMAC think cars were moving when they were not. Those dealers were shut down first.

When it comes to titling a purchased vehicle, KY is a great place to live in. Often it is not even inspected as long as you can do a carbon/crayon scrape of the vin.

[Marv Turner]

Dan

Actually he can do it with a bill of sale . He needs to fill out a statement of facts form. Might end up with a bonded title that can not be transferred for three years tho. Marv

[dan at larescorp]

Yes, but that would require the seller to sign that form also. The bill of sale by itself won't allow you to transfer the vehicle. Being that he never had that done trying to track down the PO from Alabama as a third party might be difficult.

[Graham Man]

I had a signed letter from the Secretary of State of Maine (on State of Maine letter head), a Maine transfer slip (pink) signed by the seller, and a hand written "Bill of Sale" signed, for one of my 1929 Graham-Paige cars (bought it sight unseen from Maine). The MN DMV still refused to give me a MN title. I had to get a court order forcing the MN DMV to give me a title, apparently this is what happens with a bank repossess a car and they do not get a title. Got a clean title in the end, but never, never again will I buy a car without a signed title.

Great idea of asking for a copy of the signed title in advance of the sale.

[Restorer32]

In PA in takes the services of an attorney, about $750 and several months to get a court directed title. My brother went thru this last year with a '49 Triumph. You also need pretty good documentation, including bill of sale and statement from whoever sold you the vehicle. We may have to go this route with our problem trailer.

[JACK M]

When the car gets re-listed you will be refereed to as a non payer, or a deadbeat.

[dan at larescorp]

I've been called worse!

[auburnseeker]

If the guy ended the auction early and didn't do it with a buy it now that you agreed to, then you aren't a non paying bidder. It's only if you actually win an item or buy it now through ebay and don't fulfill the obligation to purchase it that you will be a non paying bidder. The seller also has to file a complaint with ebay that you didn't pay but can only do so if you bought it on ebay not because of ebay, otherwise nothing happens. Even being a nonpaying bidder doesn't have much affect unless you do it on a regular basis.

I sell alot on ebay 13,XXX feedback. It's pretty much geared toward buyers and stick the sellers.

[mercer09]

I agree auburn and that is why I am closing my ebay acct.

ebay has become a joke!

[60FlatTop]

Although Ebay has lost the vision of it's founder and now has all the common sense of an algorithm they still have rules to follow. I have contacted many sellers and asked if they had a Buy It Now price. If they do I ask them to edit the listing to show it and I pull the trigger. All the terms of the sale are met and the hundred bucks of so that Ebay gets for putting people together for a nominal $10,000 ain't that bad.

Bernie

[cahartley]

Like it or not ebay is STILL the biggest game in town and it seems it always will be.

Even if an item doesn't sell you've still gotten free, world wide, advertising.

I've been so mad at ebay I could spit (among other things) but closing my account would be dumber than shooting myself in the foot.

That said, just recently I had an auction for a pair of Model A headlight lenses end and then received a question asking if I was going to list them again.

He told me he wanted them but missed the auction end.

I said if he wanted them I'd list them again on a "buy it now" whenever he was ready to pull the trigger.

I did and he did.......sweet.......

(The man OFFERED me $10 more than I was asking on the auction! I reminded him at what price I had them listed........NO.......taking advantage of people isn't in me.)

Edited September 13, 2014 by cahartley (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

eBay is fine, it's just a way to find stuff. It doesn't substitute for the "buyer beware" adage. It's just a way to easily access a huge classified section and buy and sell things much faster.

[uh6077]

I have sold probably 30 motorcycles and cars on eBay. It is by far the cheapest and best way to reach a large potential customer base. The local market here is VERY soft, hard get anywhere close to reasonable prices for anything vintage. When I sell I always put some GoPro HD videos on youtube and then put links in the auction. I do a full walk around and some footage of the undercarriage then one of me driving or riding so buyers can see and hear what it sounds like. Most of the motorcycles end up going overseas and many buyers have told me they would never have bid if it wasn't for the video. When I buy without being able to inspect I ask the buyer to take a quick cell phone video of the undercarriage. If they send a video, regardless of how crappy the quality is I take it as a sign that they are not trying to hide anything. If they make excuses (no smart phone, no one they know has a smart phone, no time blah blah blah) I assume the car is really poor. I might be wrong but it just isn't worth the risk. I try to pay with Paypal as they have always been good about standing behind buyers if a deal goes bad.

[auburnseeker]

I don't really think you need a video of the undercarriage. Still shots work just fine, especially if the seller provides the exact angles you are asking for. I asked a seller in Washington state for some photos underneath of the C1 Vette I bought. HE sent me over 100 photos. Nothing more I would have seen in a video. I liked to beable to scroll through to the areas of most interest and blow them up. I'm not familiar with how to do video on line so I would probably tend to shy away if asked. No one has asked, so far of the nearly 200 watchers on the 10 day auction for my burnt C1 and it ends in less than 24 hours. I guess the 90 plus photos I send them including the undercarriage pretty much covers it.

I could see obviously where the video would come in handy for a virtual test drive. A good driver familiar with the car's behavior could mask some drive ability issues though.

I did have a video snail mailed to me of a car I agreed to trade for years back. It had a few defects that the creative camera man was able to mask like some wavy quarters. Unfortunately it was a 10 hour drive each way with an enclosed car trailer and my own car each way so I made the trade rather than come home with my car but I almost didn't make the trade and was fairly disappointed when I showed up to look at it.

Would stills have been better. I'm not sure. It all boils down to how the camera man (video or Stills) takes the shots.

[cahartley]

This thread fits in nicely with that one >>> http://forums.aaca.org/f169/title-old-car-one-mans-adventure-378453-2.html

My reply is #36 and I'm very interested in what the Wisconsin DMV will have to say.

I got my answer from the WI DOT.......much easier than I thought!

>>> Thank you for using the Wisconsin Department of Transportation's website.

To title and register a pre-1973 car from New York State (where cars earlier than 1973 aren't titled) we require a transferable New York registration and an original Bill of Sale. <<<