John_Maine Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 It's interesting, though, because people do notice, especially in a small town. I am a loan officer in a local bank. I don't use my '09 Mustang during the winter, so I have been using the '89 Cutlass that I inherited from my uncle. It's a clean car with only 54K on it - but it is getting really rusty and I have been told it won't pass inspection next fall without some major repair. Anyway, a couple of weeks ago a customer came in the bank and asked me if he'd seen me in a rusted old Oldsmobile. I said yes and he said he guessed his money was safe since he didn't have to worry about the bank paying me too much. Image is everything. As a side note, the old Cutlass is the ONLY car in the employee parking lot with whitewalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 I try to bring out the old truck as much as I can. If I am at a show I will let the young kids sit up in the truck...with supervision. It is such a joy to see the smiles on their faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 a customer came in the bank and asked me if he'd seen me in a rusted old Oldsmobile. I said yes and he said he guessed his money was safe since he didn't have to worry about the bank paying me too much. Image is everything. That is a great little story and rings true with small town life--someone here in the midwest would think the same way.Another twist on that same line of thought. We all know that pickups and SUVs can now be as luxurious and expensive as an import sport sedan. In our area if the local insurance man or realtor showed up in, say, a 5 Series BMW he would be suspicious for being showy, stuck up, or just making too much money. But if he shows up in a King Ranch F150 or Expedition he is driving a truck so he must be OK--even though that truck probably cost more. Love the small town life, Todd C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 Local fellow hides his antique Rolls before he has anyone (plumber, carpenter, electrician) give him an estimate on anything, convinced that they will raise their price if they see a Rolls in the garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Some of the people on this site also help to spread the rumour that you must be wealthy to own an old car. I have noticed over the last couple of years that every time someone new comes on to the site and says "Look what I've found" or "I've just been told about this old car in a shed". "What do you think? How much do you think it is worth?" etc. The almost immediate reply is: "what ever you pay for it, it will cost you 10 times that amount to restore it" and "It'll never be worth what it costs you restore it", you will never make any money out of it" etc. They must think Wow you must have to be rich to restore/own an old car.This has bugged me for quite awhile as I read these replies and think, that’s not what he asked and not the answer he was hoping to get. A lot of the people asking this type of question would be younger, keen guys who would love to have something to fiddle with on the weekends and apart from the initial price the last thing they want to hear is how much it is going to cost. OK, we all know that it is a fairly expensive hobby and getting worse but spread over the years it doesn't hurt that much and when you run out of spare money you stop for a while. Also a lot of them will have friends or relatives who can help them with some tasks which certainly saves money.Any hobby is going to cost you money. Golf, scuba diving, sailing, singing, you name it, it will cost you money. At least with our hobby you or your kids may get something back in the finish. Usually we never hear from these people again which probably means they have ditched the idea of restoring a car and we have lost another restorer it or they have snuck away, bought the car and are doing their own thing. (hot rodding it most likely)With most other hobbies after you have spent $20,000.00 all you are left with is the memories. With our hobby you have the memories and the car. I'll take our hobby everytime. There are probably plenty of things we could be doing more to encourage young/new people into the hobby but feeding them negativity will kill off any ambitions they may have.I'm not with you on this one, Dave. First, some people perceive old car owners to be rich. Nothing we say will change that.Second, it IS expensive to own an old car. It is VERY expensive to restore an old car. Can anyone argue with that?Third. When a newbie comes on the forum and asks "I found this in a barn. What's it worth?" Many believe that the real question is, "can I buy this for a song, restore it, and make a lot of money?" If we answer untruthfully and say "yes," what help would that be?As mentioned, it's a hobby... Unless you just keep the car holed up in a garage for 35 years without taking it out (what fun that must be), it's going to cost money, A LOT OF MONEY. Just like Golf. Do people think you're rich if you play golf? Edited April 9, 2012 by West Peterson (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 I think David had a real point that we do often sound too discouraging to a newcomer. But unfortunately the point is also correct that the excited newbie is often setting up for a big disappointment if he charges into a project with no good advice. It is frustrating that it is hard to communicate that scenario without sounding negative. All things are relative and we make choices about our recreational possibilities, as David said. Some blow money on golf, women, travel or other hobbies and I always contend that owning and enjoying a driver quality old car does not have to be all that expensive. But actively restoring one IS expensive and if you are a beginner you must either pay someone to do your restoration work and/or learn to do all or some of your own. Either will be a big cost in cash and/or time and other resources. If we are to be good advisors the newcomer must be warned of that, but then we sound like we are squashing their hopes. It is indeed difficult. Todd C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Leylands Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Hi guys, Great topic. In my opinion, the general public's eye thinks us car guys are rich because of TV's perception of the hobby and mis-informed education on the subject. Car auctions like Barrett Jackson, My Classic Car, even commercials for Maguairs car care products generally show the average onlooker what the "rich" people are buying (and seldom if ever driving or purely enjoying). They never show what the average person owns because it's been in the family, it was a good deal, or it was all we could afford. They focus on numbers matching or 100% nut/bolt restored with expensive paint jobs. Many of us don't own these cars and never will.But this doesn't have to be the case to own a nice old car. Go check out your local car show, only only about 10% real expensive top quality restorations (or the lucky few to own original in nice condition). Ask around how much each owner has invested in his/her car, I'm sure most will say between $5,000 and 30,000 with the obvious show stopper restorations being upwards of 50+k. Now ask them how long they worked on their car before showing it, most have personally built the car over years of hard work and lots of patience to save up money and learn the work involved, while others have waited their whole life to own a nice old car because they thought it had to cost large money up front to enjoy the hobby and finally saved up $30,000 or 40,000 to buy one when they retired. People get side traked by what the average consumer wants to own, the Ford Roadsters, '67 Mustangs, '69 Camaro's, etc. There are so many other nice cars found in barns, others being built, car projects that fall through after sitting in pieces in the garage for years and get given away for dirt cheap. But like anything else, it doesn't come without some patience to see a project through and a lot of hard work, unless you are rich!My cars are not the award winning show stoppers but my entire family loves jumping in them and going to car shows for the day. My favorite truck cost me $3,500 and is a work in progress while I still enjoy it every summer. I save up my money to buy each one of them and I keep my eye open for deals on parts at swap meets, on talk forums and in newspapers, sometimes buying whole (or part) cars to get a few items then parting out the car to recover my money. I take the time to learn how to fix, weld, rebuild, paint, to restore a car and I'm not afraid to get dirty and wreck something trying. I make friends who help me out on trade for my skills... and eventually it all works out. My garage is filled with parts and projects that will hopefully one day be on the road. In the end, we have just as much fun as the guy beside us who owns that shiny numbers matching '67 GT500, for a fraction of the price. If people spent money less foolishly and lowered their expectations of keeping up with TV or the neighbors, they too could own a nice car with a little bit of work and patience.Justin. Edited April 9, 2012 by Leylands (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 But this doesn't have to be the case to own a nice old car. Go check out your local car show, only only about 10% real expensive top quality restorations (or the lucky few to own original in nice condition). Ask around how much each owner has invested in his/her car, I'm sure most will say between $5,000 and 30,000In the end, we have just as much fun as the guy beside us who owns that shiny numbers matching '67 GT500, for a fraction of the price. Justin.All exactly right Justin--the hobby is democratic enough that at most shows the guy with a modest 1960s/1970s car can go to the same show and have the same fun as the rich guy. He can't have a Hemi Cuda for $5000, but he can have an old car and have fun with it, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 And he can go home with the exact same trophy as the high dollar restoration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Leylands Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) And he can go home with the exact same trophy as the high dollar restoration.Thanks guys.exactly my point! same sense of pride and enjoyment (maybe even more pride since he likely did most of the work himself), same trophy, just a different category of competition. Take "rat rods" for instance, many of the local shows are starting to see these cool looking pieces of crap show up which seem to attract the same, or sometimes more attention than the high dollar restoration its parked beside. Why? Because its not the same cookie cutter car that was parked two rows over, it's the ONLY one in existance and it strikes the curiousity of the onlooker to see what someone has done to personalize it. And truth be told, some of them do look kind of cool. I'm not saying that i wouldn't love to own a beautiful flawless, Barrett Jackson quality classic car, but I still get the same enjoyment out of this hobby with my lower dollar restoration as the guy parked next to me. It doesn't matter what your financial status is, each and every single person has the oportunity to own a classic car which can be THEIR own pride and joy. Justin. Edited April 10, 2012 by Leylands (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avantey Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I also want to say this is a great topic! And I have been on the receiving end of it in the last week in my small town (where everyone knows everything and who has what). It was stated I have more money in my garage than most people in town have period. I've gotten to where I laugh it off or make a joke about the seven car garage holding a lot of stuff as well as the toys (it does) and keep the conversation going.What they don't know is that I have been collecting since '78, one every 6-7 years. I also know all but one was under $10K, needed (or still needs) work and I fix them as I have time and money. It is a GREAT hobby where I have made many friends, found a great wife (at a car show), and learned a lot from many good mechanics much smarter than me. If there is a regret it is that I lost my father to get into this world. Without inheriting the Avanti and deciding to preserve it I would have missed a huge part of my life as I know it today.I readily explain it does not take a lot of money to get in this hobby, even the pre-war cars. I also explain it does take a lot of money to restore a car now and the average Joe is being priced out of the hobby at a fair pace. With the TV/auction inflated opinions of car sellers and the cost of restoration it becoming a rich man's hobby in my opinion and that is very sad.In the end I still give kids rides, talk up old cars to everyone and have a ball playing with my toys. Can't wait for summer to get here...... see ya on the road- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavinnz Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I think that the "cost of restoration" is a term that has quite a large range too....I once lamented to a friend how some people seem to be able to restore a car a year... and he pointed out to me, quite correctly I think, that they farm out a large part of the work where as I can't afford to do that so I have to take the time to work out how to do almost all of the work myself. Time vis money.My restoration will be cheaper in money but huge in my time as I am a painter by trade and I build my own bodywork and I am handy with a lathe and welder..... all I intent to farm out is upholstry and core engine work.So at a show I might have the car that will take me 10 years to finish beside a car that took a year and lots of big money farmed out work. Time cost restoration and money cost restoration.Just thinking out loud really... ok rambling... back to making the firewall...RegardsGavin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Local fellow hides his antique Rolls before he has anyone (plumber, carpenter, electrician) give him an estimate on anything, convinced that they will raise their price if they see a Rolls in the garage. I live in a zip code that I think that happens so I do the repairs myself (except roofing because I do not bounce as well at my age) because of the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 All things are relative and we make choices about our recreational possibilities, as David said. Some blow money on golf, women, travel or other hobbies and I always contend that owning and enjoying a driver quality old car does not have to be all that expensive. But actively restoring one IS expensive and if you are a beginner you must either pay someone to do your restoration work and/or learn to do all or some of your own. Todd CTodd, I agree, the last 4 cars I have had benefitted from someone else's earlier restoration work and my efforts were entirely to make them or keep them good drivers. I doubt I will ever truly restore a car again but I will continue on the driver path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVE A Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 While most of the posts in this thread have centered on the dollar value of our hobby, I like to say, "yes, I am rich because I have an old car". I'm rich because I have the opportunity to go to car shows and meet and talk to new people all the time. The richness of the friendships I have gained in the years I've been involved with old cars can not be equaled. I am fabulously wealthy in the knowledge I've gained from working on old cars, traveling to events with my cars, and talking to people in all social and economic levels as a peer. Finally, I'm enriched by being able to be a member of various clubs and groups in the old car hobby that have treated me with the same respect I've given them and more. Dollars...I don't have too many...but I'm rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 While most of the posts in this thread have centered on the dollar value of our hobby, I like to say, "yes, I am rich because I have an old car". I'm rich because I have the opportunity to go to car shows and meet and talk to new people all the time. The richness of the friendships I have gained in the years I've been involved with old cars can not be equaled. I am fabulously wealthy in the knowledge I've gained from working on old cars, traveling to events with my cars, and talking to people in all social and economic levels as a peer. Finally, I'm enriched by being able to be a member of various clubs and groups in the old car hobby that have treated me with the same respect I've given them and more. Dollars...I don't have too many...but I'm rich.Very well said!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 While most of the posts in this thread have centered on the dollar value of our hobby, I like to say, "yes, I am rich because I have an old car". I'm rich because I have the opportunity to go to car shows and meet and talk to new people all the time. The richness of the friendships I have gained in the years I've been involved with old cars can not be equaled. I am fabulously wealthy in the knowledge I've gained from working on old cars, traveling to events with my cars, and talking to people in all social and economic levels as a peer. Finally, I'm enriched by being able to be a member of various clubs and groups in the old car hobby that have treated me with the same respect I've given them and more. Dollars...I don't have too many...but I'm rich.Bravo! The word "rich" is not always associated with a monetary value. I purchased a classic car(vehicle from the 50') because I wanted one since I was 15. Now that I have one I spent last night highlighting upcoming charity events that involve cars on show. It has become a family activity as well. There is always richness in helping others through charity and family time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bamford Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 ...take "rat rods" for instance, many of the local shows are starting to see these cool looking pieces of crap show up which seem to attract the same, or sometimes more attention than the high dollar restoration its parked beside...Very true, and a reminder of one of my favourite car show photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1935Packard Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Great topic. In my experience, people outside the hobby commonly make several mistakes in guessing about antique car values. A few examples: 1) They think that every old car must be valuable because some old cars are valuable. They've heard about old cars that are worth a ton, and they figure that the cars must be worth a ton simply because they're old. So they assume all old cars are worth a ton.2) They assume every body style must be worth about the same amount. Those of us in the hobby expect a 4-door sedan to be worth around 40% of an equivalent car in a 2-door convertible. But those outside the hobby have no experience with that; they know that new car prices for convertibles are usually a bit more, not a ton more, and most cars depreciate the same rough amount.3) They expect restoration costs to be low enough that it's worthwhile to restore every car. With houses, you usually get most of your money back when you repair or expand a house. Sometimes the property goes up in value more than the price of the work. People outside the hobby expect car values to be similar: They expect that if you have a $15k driver and want to make it a $30k show car, it should cost somewhere around $15k to do that.4) They think a car in good condition is in "mint" condition, and therefore worth what value guides say for mint condition cars. Those of us with cars that are "drivers" know this well; it's common for those outside the hobby to see our cars and say, "wow, that's in mint condition." But those of in the hobby know that there is a big difference between a driver and a show car, and that this difference often means a big difference in value.These errors are totally understandable, because they draw from experience with values in markets that people outside the hobby know best: houses and newer cars. But it's always interesting to see how this leads people outside the hobby to be shocked at the prices (whether high or low) for different cars and restorations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) 1935Packard, well said. if someone is truly interested in learning, I hit these three bases with them to get them to think:Issues 1 & 2 essentally the same, along with rare does not always mean priceless. A quick discussion of what is usually preferable like a sporting bodystyle, better trim or popular when new seems to get people thinking. But I also would add, get what interests you above all else!Issue 3, I usually compare restoration expense to a kitchen remodel, if one guts and remodels a kitchen professionally, it is not unusual for the cost to be $50K - 80K or more. Putting the same man hours into a restoration, sometimes more, with material costs seems less outragious when put into context. Issue 4, describe why a two year old car is not a #1 or mint car, this helps one understand that a 25, 50, or 75 year old car in "good condition" is something to be proud of! I happen to follow the 1 - 5 guide that many here often quote, although there are variations even within the hobby I think it is the most "honest" or useful guide. As you say, these are understandable and the reason I am following up and going a tad off topic here is for every 8 "What's it worth you must be rich" encounters you stay in this a while and you will get truly interested parties asking about your car - many times new to the hobby or potentially new to the hobby - let's not let that get lost in the shuffle!! Edited April 11, 2012 by Steve_Mack_CT clarity (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci1957 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I agree, 1935Packard's four highlight points are very good. And like Steve I also think the # 1-5 condition scale is a good guide as long as one can avoid over-classifying. It is not foolproof and throw it away when watching the TV auction, but I think experienced car people can use it when communicating condition to each other. Todd C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Very true, and a reminder of one of my favourite car show photos.I like that picture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Leylands Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Very true, and a reminder of one of my favourite car show photos. So it looks like one of my cars is almost complete, just need a seat now! hahahaand I bet he had just as much fun going to his local car show (even if he had to trailer it there). probably drew just as much attention as the guy beside him, maybe more. It doesn't matter what you drive or how much it costs as long as you enjoy it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bamford Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 ...I bet he had just as much fun going to his local car show (even if he had to trailer it there)...I drove it like that for eight years, total 1,000+ miles, put the body back on last August then drove it 1,500 miles return to a Northwest Vintage Speedsters event in Spokane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Leylands Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Great photo! What year is your T? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J3Studio Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Great topic. In my experience, people outside the hobby commonly make several mistakes in guessing about antique car values. A few examples: 1) They think that every old car must be valuable because some old cars are valuable. They've heard about old cars that are worth a ton, and they figure that the cars must be worth a ton simply because they're old. So they assume all old cars are worth a ton.2) They assume every body style must be worth about the same amount. Those of us in the hobby expect a 4-door sedan to be worth around 40% of an equivalent car in a 2-door convertible. But those outside the hobby have no experience with that; they know that new car prices for convertibles are usually a bit more, not a ton more, and most cars depreciate the same rough amount.3) They expect restoration costs to be low enough that it's worthwhile to restore every car. With houses, you usually get most of your money back when you repair or expand a house. Sometimes the property goes up in value more than the price of the work. People outside the hobby expect car values to be similar: They expect that if you have a $15k driver and want to make it a $30k show car, it should cost somewhere around $15k to do that.4) They think a car in good condition is in "mint" condition, and therefore worth what value guides say for mint condition cars. Those of us with cars that are "drivers" know this well; it's common for those outside the hobby to see our cars and say, "wow, that's in mint condition." But those of in the hobby know that there is a big difference between a driver and a show car, and that this difference often means a big difference in value.These errors are totally understandable, because they draw from experience with values in markets that people outside the hobby know best: houses and newer cars. But it's always interesting to see how this leads people outside the hobby to be shocked at the prices (whether high or low) for different cars and restorations.A solid assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 "Are you rich?""I used to be, before I bought an antique car."Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest prs519 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Two words: "Car Poor"! Seems to me like those two words trump "theoretically rich"!Would that rich really were but a state of mind..ho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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