Chevy VOLT vs The EDSEL

[1937hd45]

Is the Chevy VOLT the EDSEL of our time?

[Guest Oracle]

EUROPEAN CAR OF THE YEAR 2012

[Guest Water Jacket]

Why the anathema to Chevy Volt? At least GM's finally doing something closer to right instead of their porky SUVs and empty--always empty, ever notice? -- suburban cowboy fashion statement pickup trucks. We of all people should embrace any and all alternative fuel/hybrid/electric cars since it saves gasoline for those of us who really need the stuff. Dunno 'bout you, but i plan on driving my Packard for centuries to come.

Why should we decry whatever saves gas, the environment we all share? Most people are delighted driving new stuff that looks like angry kitchen appliances.

More power to 'em. A squadron of these new buggies emit fewer pollutants than our most razor-tuned old car.

Let's save gas, judiciously enjoy our survivors that need it. That's why we come to the AACA. Plant a tree. Trees return oxygen to the environment. We and our cars need oxygen.

Trees also look nice when you're driving. You can even park beneath them and tinker. Trees protect from the UV rays that destroy dashboards, upholstery, bake paint and tires.

[Dave@Moon]

There are a lot of people who seem to have a blind rage to discredit anything new and/or even vaguely related to the Federal government, and today's GM gives them a big/fat bullseye on both counts. This question is probably asked at least in part due to a lot of false information being circulated, mainly from partisan sources. The major offender here is (as usual) Fox News/News Corp./Rupert Murdoch and his minions.

For fact checks, see:

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-03-11/story/fact-check-volt-gets-bad-rap-viral-email

snopes.com: Cost to Operate the Chevy Volt

The Volt is selling much slower than it should be, in part because people trust these kinds of lies about them. These are the same distortions (from the same people) who brought you a world where Hummers were better for the environment than the Prius, and 50 other lies about political figures that don't belong here. If people still trust the information they're getting from these sources there's not much else that can be done for them. Just don't get taken in with them.

====================

In my view the Volt was a huge leap, and GM may have been better off with an interim model like a Prius to allow it's customers to adjust to the idea. Ford has had great success following the Toyota route, and is now the first company to offer a no-cost hybrid option (Lincoln MKZ) which (IMHO) is a better hext step.

The Volt may be MUCH better described as today's Chrysler Airflow

Edited March 17, 2012 by Dave@Moon
typo (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Whenever an all-electric car's driving range is enough to enable people to drive and not fear getting stranded with no charging station nearby, or to not have to interrupt a trip by waiting several hours to charge the batteries enough to get another couple hundred miles down the road, then they may be practical.

As a short-distance commuter car, I can see their use. For someone like me who has to drive 60 miles round trip to work every day, not so much.

I've said for many years that the trouble with people who promote and obsess with alternate energy/transportation is that they tend to live in areas where there is a lot of reliable public transportation and are clueless about how things work in the hinterlands. There is no public transportation between my home and my job, and if there were I can promise it would never run on a schedule I could take advantage of. If I worked over to get a piece of critical equipment back in service, if I missed the last bus then I'm stranded 30 miles from home.

Add to that, at age 55 I'm really not interested in going into considerable debt to own a Volt.

It's a downright shame energy has become so political.

[NTX5467]

I concur, many of the promoters of things are so focused on THEIR OWN SITUATION and how they feel OTHERS should follow them that they fail to look at the much larger picture . . . which extends past the city limits of their own particular urban municipality.

The Volt is a very nice car. If you'd head down to your local GM dealer and ask the parts department person to pull up an illustration of the Volt's electrical system, you'd be amazed that they can sell it at the price they do.

The key with the Volt, or similar vehicles, is to lease them rather than purchase them. As long as the lease's projected residual value remains high, the lease rates will be reasonable. Getting the additional "gap" insurance might be considered, too, should the value crater in the future (which I don't forsee happening).

The build quality on the Volt is lightyears ahead of what the Edsels had, which is expected, with all due respect. The Volt is about making a modern efficiency statement rather than a "move up in society" statement that the Edsel sought to play to.

I'd have a Volt if it made sense for me, at this time in my life. I noticed a "retired" grandmother getting into her newer Toyota Prius at the beauty parlor the other day. That's one demographic where such low fuel costs can make sense, too! Not just for energy-conscious "yuppies".

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Restorer32]

Perfect car if you lived in a retirement community or a resort area where your only trips were short ones to the grocery store, mall, beach etc or lived in a city and seldom or never left. I compare them to a horse and buggy. About the same range in a day's time.

[Dave@Moon]

Whenever an all-electric car's driving range is enough to enable people to drive and not fear getting stranded with no charging station nearby, or to not have to interrupt a trip by waiting several hours to charge the batteries enough to get another couple hundred miles down the road, then they may be practical.

As a short-distance commuter car, I can see their use. For someone like me who has to drive 60 miles round trip to work every day, not so much.

The Volt is a hybrid electric car, with an on-board gasoline-fired generator. Running on pure battery storage it gets the energy equivalent of 200-300 mpg. After the battery is drained the gas engine kicks in to charge the battery (only, unlike a Toyota or Ford Hybrid where there's a connection to the transmission as well). Continuing to drive in that mode the Volt will average around 34 mpg, with a 300 mile range before the gas tank's empty.

I think only Tesla, Nissan (Leaf), Ford (Focus Electric) and Mitisubishi (MiEV) currently sell pure electrics for unlimited street use in the U.S.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Dave@Moon
added "unlimited" (see edit history)

[john2dameron]

I myself would much rather have a '58 Edsel Citation convertible than any Chevrolet Volt available.

[1957Birdman]

If you mean the wrong car at the wrong time I think the comparison is valid. I consider the Volt to be an experimental car being offered to the public. The reason I say that is it is the first car to use lithium ion batteries. The potential for a disasterous fire is much greater with lithium than with nickel metal hydride, which is what the regular hybrids use. Lithium ion fires are very difficult to put out.

It isn't economically feasible for many people to buy because of the cost (even with the $10K government tax credit) and the need to have a charging station. Last time I checked, the average apartment dweller would have no way of charging it, even if they wanted one. I see it as more of a rich person's car.

I think a good analogy for all this is with cell phones. They are ubiquitious now, but they were really clunky when they first came out. If people would have been forced to carry around a brick they would have never become as popular. The market has done a good job of determining the winners in cell phone field and the result is better products and service for everyone. Let's see the automobile manufacturers do the same thing. It will result in better products.

Lastly, the shot at Fox news I think is uncalled for. Just remember that 60 Minutes almost deep sixed Audi in the United States over the supposed unintended acceleration of the Audi 5000. As I remember 60 Minutes is on CBS, not Fox.

[Guest marlin65]

The Chevy Volt as with all these hybrid cars are a novelty pure and simple.it's all been tried years and years ago and didn't work then.I will continue to embrace the gasolene engine.

[john2dameron]

I think a good analogy for all this is with cell phones. They are ubiquitious now, but they were really clunky when they first came out. If people would have been forced to carry around a brick they would have never become as popular. The market has done a good job of determining the winners in cell phone field and the result is better products and service for everyone. Let's see the automobile manufacturers do the same thing. It will result in better products.

And I would like to add, that in spite of the improvements in cell phones there are still meny places here in the USA where there is not a cell phone signal and that makes the best, most improved cell phove available, useless there. There are also many places a Volt will not make sense so what is great for one person is of no value to another; which is why gasoline autos won out over electrics in the 1900's.

[earl e rizer]

I have no problem with electric cars, too bad they hadn't spent as much R&D on them over the last 100 yrs as they did the I.C.E. cars. Then they would be far more advanced and practical.

The Volt is a pioneer type vehicle. The Edsel was just a different skin on a 58 Ford chassis and drivetrain. It was not a techno breakthrough car.

If the Volt is a failure so be it. At least GM is trying to do something new, and I want someone else to drive them so I can have their gas!

[Guest Skyking]

I say drill and make more Edsels.......... As far as the Volt, let the tree huggers buy them and leave the gas to us.

[Dave@Moon]

I will continue to embrace the gasolene engine.

Then imagine what you'll be left to drive in 2025 (13 years), when the Corporate Average Fuel Economy will be 61 mpg (fleet average, as agreed to by all major car companies already).

There are currently 39 hybrid cars on the American market. They ain't going away.

[1957Birdman]

With all due respect Dave, my posting about lithium ion was not based on anything Fox News said. I have seen the results of lithium ion fires that have happened when laptop batteries failed. The damage is substantial, to say the least. I have a friend who is an expert witness in battery fires. He worked for GM for many years and is not predisposed to be negative about the company. He is in no big hurry to own a Volt, based on his experience with what can happen with lithium ion batteries.

If you want government to pick winners and losers, that is your choice. I just happen to think the market place works better.

[joe_padavano]

I've got to agree with Dave on this one. The idiots at NHTSA didn't do GM or the Volt any favors either with their stupid post-crash "fire" panic (hint to Volt owners: If you crash your car, try to exit it within a week or so to avoid any possible risk of fire ).

The unfortunate fact is that GM was late to market with the Volt, Toyota has saturated the hybrid market, HOV exemptions (the primary reason for hybrid purchase, at least in metro areas) are being phased out, and the economy still sucks. On the other hand, with gas going up 15-20 cents a week here in the DC area, expect hybrid sales to pick up again.

[Dave@Moon]

With all due respect Dave, my posting about lithium ion was not based on anything Fox News said. I have seen the results of lithium ion fires that have happened when laptop batteries failed. The damage is substantial, to say the least. I have a friend who is an expert witness in battery fires. He worked for GM for many years and is not predisposed to be negative about the company. He is in no big hurry to own a Volt, based on his experience with what can happen with lithium ion batteries.

If you want government to pick winners and losers, that is your choice. I just happen to think the market place works better.

Lew, as Bob Lutz says there hasn't yet been a single fire in Li battery in a Volt.

This past Wednesday the President of my local British car club was waxing vociferously about how much he like my 2010 Prius, which 4 of us used to drive to Chicago for a swap meet the week before. Immediately our club Secretary piped in that, since my 2005 Prius has 85,000 miles on it, it will soon need a $3000 new hybrid battery. This was one of the lies circulated about the Prius 6-7 years ago by the same people. The 3rd-4th-5th-83rd person repeating of which is still held true by many (otherwise highly car-knowledgeable) people. It's important to debunk them ASAP.

What can happen and what does happen are 2 different things. That 1/2 full gas tank in your garage is a bomb of explosive vapors that could level the house. Does it happen much?:confused:

Also nobody's picking "winners". Saving GM helped the economy WAY beyond the cost of doing so. That's why that happened.

Encouraging Volt sales helps the environment similarly WAY beyond the cost of doing so. If Fiat, BMW, Mattel, etc. came out with the same car tomorrow they'd get the same treatment...., and we'd reap the same benefit.

[Guest Bob Call]

Here is my take on this subject. At the beginning of the 20th century there were numerous electric cars and trucks on the market. By 1920 most, if not all, had disappeared from the market. I think the electric car's time still has not come to past.

With the political bent of some of the posts under this thread, I'm surprised it hasn't been deleted.

[Rusty_OToole]

What I want to know is where are all the greenies and lefties who said they would lu-u-u-u-v to buy an electric car if mean ol' GM would build one?

If you don't know what I mean, watch Who Killed The Electric Car? a hatchet job on the auto industry in general and GM in particular. Everyone on it loves electric cars and is dying to buy one except GM bought them all up and scrapped them.

Well boys the nearest Chev dealer will sell you an electric car that is about 10 times better than the one you wanted so bad in 1996. What are you waiting for?

[NTX5467]

As Ed Wallace mentioned on his radio show a week or so ago, the Volt was approved for production well BEFORE the forced bankruptcy of GM was considered, back when George W. Bush was President. Just after GM was spending money on hydrogen-fueled vehicles and swithed to what was to become "Volt". Getting the Volt to production was a benefit of GM getting government money, NOT the reason for it.

I drove a Volt at a recent Chevy consumer ride/drive event. It's a very nice car. Has good performance, in the "constant pull" orientation rather than a screaming engine hitting redline and the trans grabbing a higher gear. Getting educated on what the information screen has on it would be necessary, though, to learn how to really use the vehicle to its full capabilities. I was also highly surprised at a level of luxury that I'd consider more Cadillac-like than Chevy-like . . . at least, historically. Quite roomy, too. It doesn't look or feel like an inexpensive car with an expensive powertrain by any means, to me.

Personally, I'd much rather have an "extended range" electric vehicle with an on-board generator than an "electric-only" vehicle. Sometimes, I just like to go out and drive and you can't really do that in an "electric-only" vehicle. As I understand it, the Volt's generator will kick in at 20% remaning charge rather than run the battery completely dead before it recharges it.

To me, the electric vehicles remove atmospheric contamination from the local atmosphere, one vehicle at a time. But, the electricity used to recharge them (overnight or otherwise) comes from a remotely-located power plant which might be burning any sort of "burnable" material. Hence, any related pollution is not in the non-attainment area, but "elsewhere".

[Guest Barry B.]

I think some people are of the assumption that when the Volts battery loses charge the car is dead but that's why there's a gas powered generator on board to keep charge in the battery. In my opinion this is a good approach even though I can't afford to buy one. I've heard claims of 130 mpg which if true is not shabby.

[junkyardjeff]

40 grand for a car that will only go 40 miles on a charge is a big joke,I would rather spend the money to feed gas to a Edsel then to buy a Volt. The money spent on gas would be cheaper then the car payment and I have the idea of finding a Prius body and building a race car out of it trashing the goofy drivetrain and electronics and stuffing a 500 HP or more V8 and tube chassis in it and have some fun with it. If the Volt was not so expensive I would buy one and put a real motor in it.

[Guest Kingoftheroad]

Give me an Edsel, please......

[poci1957]

Eeludy I think hit the comparison correctly without bringing in politics, real or imagined. The fact is the Edsel was introduced to fill a marketing slot but really it was just a repackaged 1958 Ford and Mercury. The Volt is much more than that. Now if it makes economic sense to you (or the market) is a different conversation, but the car is a revolutionary item that addresses the range anxiety of full electrics and makes it more usable for more people. Todd

[poci1957]

PS--don't get me wrong though, comparing them you can put me down for a nice Citation convertible anytime, thanks, Todd

[Guest Water Jacket]

Dave, thanks for returning this to "Just the facts, ma'am." Sgt. Friday would be impressed. Mssrs. eeluddy, Joe_padavano, NTX5467, Barry B., poci1957, perhaps one or two others get it.

Regarding the snarls hurled at the Volt, of all things, it's always mystified me that there are many who enjoy old cars, as we here gathered all do, who nonetheless seem closer to the "get a horse" contingent.

Neither do i understand this undercurrent of frustrated testosterone, "we're he-men who need to burn gasoline to work and the grocery store."

"Them city slickers and their darned horseless carria--

electric cars."

Why the animosity toward electric cars, alternative fuels,

being environmentally savvy? The more people who drive such cars, the longer gasoline lasts for those of us who occasionally like to drive our ancient internal combustion automobiles. As electrics become more developed, their supporting infrastructure will grow. Remember railroads?

Telegraph, telephone lines, home electric lighting?

Real simple. What's not to like?

If you don't want a Volt, or Prius, or Tesla roadster like Indy 500 team owner Dave Letterman and other gearheads drive,

don't buy one.

Enjoy your AACA car without the rancor, the snarls.

Regarding "greenies," what's the alternative? Some of us are old enough to remember the wretched LA smog of the '50s.

Henry Ford and GM's founder, William C. Durant were both against our entering WWI. Ford famously sponsored the Peace Ship of world leaders and dignitaries opposing US involvement overseas.

Ford intended his Model T, and Fordson tractor, by the 1920s comprising fully half of all cars and tractors not just on and in our nation's roads and fields, but all the world's, to run on agwaste ethanol. Ford thought burning petroleum for fuel was utter folly, that it should be saved for lubricants.

But at the time of their development, John D. Rockefeller controlled 90% of all our nation's bulk oil shipment, with gasoline as cheap as a dime a gallon.

Perhaps, had Ford prevailed, our Hudsons, Reos, Nashes, LaSalles, Oldsmobiles, Packards, Pontiacs, Plymouths --and most of our current modern cars-- would burn agwaste ethanol instead of gasoline.

Ford and Hudson practiced stringent recycling; shop filings, glass, nothing but nothing wasted. Kingsford charcoal briquettes were created 90 years ago to use Ford factory waste wood scrap. Some of you may have used these Kingsford briquettes last summer.

Ford also wanted to pipe air into coal mines, control burn the coal in the ground to produce energy on site, rather than consume the mammoth energy to transport coal to power plants while leaving mine sites a sunken environmental disaster area.

Some of you disparaging "greenies" who happen to own early GM and Henry-era Ford products, might want to divest yourselves of them.

Spent the entire afternoon underneath my Packard, toiling away at things few will ever see for that warm and fuzzy feeling you get from a job well done. In the background, i heard neighbors going about their Saturday afternoon errands, many of them driving small, quiet, rationally-sized fuel-sipping cars, noticed a coupla Priuses ghosting along. Heard some birds singing, looked out from beneath my gleaming, gas-happy Packard, saw trees, inhaled the soft scent of foliage, greenery after our recent rain.

What's not to like?

When my gal returns from her annual visit to her ancient mother, who as a girl used to ride in a big Graham-Paige, think i'll ask her to make some quiche.

[Ron Green]

I had the opportunity recently to drive a Volt for an entire day and it is an incredible car. If the batteries are drained it seamlessly switches over to a small gas engine that charges the batteries which drives the electric motor while you drive. Acceleration is extremely quick (faster than my 72 Vette), the interior is comfortable and full charge from total drained batteries is approximately 3 hours on 240-volt (7 on 120-volt).

[Restorer32]

It's as it should be, an individual choice, at least for now. In my life an electric car just has no practical place but under the right circumstances for some folks it would be perfect. It would be perfect for my widowed mother-in-law whe virtually never goes beyond 10 miles from home. Does make you wonder though why they aren't selling at a much faster rate. Where indeed are all those folks who said they would buy one?

[LINC400]

I think the Prius is an extremely unattractive car. I would not care if it got 100 mpg, I would not spend my hard earned money making payments on one.

The Volt is not to my taste either. And if the range is 40 miles before it needs a recharge, it would not be practicle for me.

I would like to buy a new car sometime in the future, although I have no immediate plans to do so. I like large luxury/personal luxury coupes. There is nothing on the market like that now. The closest IMO would be something like a Camaro or Challenger. If these cars can pave the way for me to have the type of car that I want, whether by eventually producing a hybrid or electric engine to power a 300+ horsepower muscle or luxury coupe, or by allowing manufacturers to meet CAFE while still allowing them to build one gas powered muscle/luxury coupe to my taste, then I don't see how this can be a bad thing.

I do not want to get political, but I will simply say that I would rather have part of my paycheck going to the Volt to possibly have some later indirect benefit to me and keep people employed, than to have it go for unemployment and welfare benefits.

Also what I find really annoying is the majority of people that get on their soapbox and critisize GM for not building electric, small, hybrid, eco-friendly, etc. cars, but then don't buy one when GM does indeed build them. It seems they like to dictate what others should be driving, but don't want to drive them themselves.

[Dave@Moon]

I think we are up to at least 10 people now who continue to insist that the Volt can only be driven 40 miles at a time, all of them after that was accurately refuted.

[Jim Rohn]

doesn't anyone remember the EV????

[LINC400]

I think we are up to at least 10 people now who continue to insist that the Volt can only be driven 40 miles at a time, all of them after that was accurately refuted.

I said "IF". To be honest the Volt is of no interest to me, so I haven't bothered to look up its actual statistics. But limited range has always been one of the factors against any electric car. Along with how am I supposed to get to work in the morning if I get distracted and forget to plug it in, or if there is a power outtage.

However, my post is hardly anti-Volt.

One million Priuses have been sold. Over how many years? Out of how many car sales per year? The fact is, I see very few on the road here. While I see tons of SUV's which you predicted to be going away soon. The reality is, while most people get on their soapbox and preach about how we need more efficient smaller cars or alternative fuel cars, most think that all their neighbors should be the ones buying them, not themselves. I personally just don't don't like being or seeing a hypocrite.

Edited March 18, 2012 by LINC400 (see edit history)

[Dave@Moon]

One million Priuses have been sold. Over how many years? Out of how many car sales per year? The fact is, I see very few on the road here. While I see tons of SUV's which you predicted to be going away soon. The reality is, while most people get on their soapbox and preach about how we need more efficient smaller cars or alternative fuel cars, most think that all their neighbors should be the ones buying them, not themselves. I personally just don't don't like being or seeing a hypocrite.

Toyota: One millionth Prius sold in U.S. | Green Tech - CNET News

Five months later they announced the 1 millionth Prius sold in Japan.

I've purchased 2 of them, so far.:cool:

[Restorer32]

Why did you need a second? Was it to replace the first? If so why?

[Guest Skyking]

Every Prius I ever see is in engine mode. Yea, they save a lot :eek:

[Dave@Moon]

Why did you need a second? Was it to replace the first? If so why?

As soon as the first one was paid off (that month!) I bought a second to replace my wife's car. She has the new one, I've got the old one. I see no point in driving something less than a hybrid, unless for some reason I couldn't afford it. Once you've had one for a while, there is no question why they're on their way to dominate the market.:cool:

[Restorer32]

Dominate the market? Hybrid perhaps. Total electric, unlikely in our lifetime.

[joe_padavano]

I said "IF". To be honest the Volt is of no interest to me, so I haven't bothered to look up its actual statistics. But limited range has always been one of the factors against any electric car. Along with how am I supposed to get to work in the morning if I get distracted and forget to plug it in, or if there is a power outtage.

You might start by educating yourself on the difference between a pure electric like the Nissan Leaf and a gasoline/electric hybrid like the Volt.

With cars like the Volt, you have the option to plug it in and recharge the battery using lower-cost household electricity, or you can simply turn the key and run the car off the gasoline-powered generator with near-zero charge in the battery.

One other thing that amazes me about the anti-hybrid crowd here is that if EVERYONE ELSE drove a Volt or other hybrid, wouldn't that leave more gasoline for your Edsel?

[Restorer32]

I find it amusing that the newest technology is cars that shut off at every stop and restart instantly when the light changes. I travelled around India in 1970 and one of the many strange customs I noticed was that virtually every taxi driver shut off their engine at every stop light and restarted when the light changed. Rebuilding starters must have been one of the better businesses to be in.