Chevy VOLT vs The EDSEL

[alsancle]

I have no problem with hybrid technology and would welcome any technological advances that would make driving more efficient for me (as in cheaper per mile calculated by total cost).

My problem is with the zealots pushing it and making me help pay for their political agenda.

Proponents fail to acknowledge this distinction with the people making fun of the volt. The technology may have potential but the "movement" is smug and annoying.

[Rawja]

I'm acutely aware of the dangerous ground one treads when the subject of taxation comes up around here, so I'll try to stay with generalities.

The government provides all sorts of incentives for all sorts of things.

Is your mortgage deduction coming out of my pocket? Sure it is, just as much as the incentives for purchasing a Volt, putting solar panels on your house... or for that matter tax credits given for oil exploration.

We live in a SOCIETY. As agreed upon through our (imperfect) representative republic system certain behaviors are rewarded and others are penalized. Saving energy (for whatever motivation, saving the earth or reducing our dependence on antagonistic furriners) has been determined to be in our greater national interest.

Projecting "smugness" on hybrid drivers by conservatives is about as useful as projecting "neanderthal" on SUV/pickup drivers by liberals. It's pointless and mostly inaccurate.

There are plenty of conservatives (Lutz being a good example) who can appreciate cutting edge technology and saving money on fuel, and not feeding the aforementioned "enemies" of the US and there are plenty of truck-driving, car-loving liberals, stereotypes be damned.

Being against something just because you perceive people you generally disagree with as being for it is counter-productive.

Just sayin'

[alsancle]

Many issues that I can foresee we won't agree on. So I guess I'll express my point of view this way. I feel it would never occur to the Neanderthal driving the truck that the greenie in his hybrid should be compelled to drive a truck too. It would also not occur to the Neanderthal that the greenie should be subsidizing his truck buying habit just because the Neanderthal happens to feel it would be for the greater good for everyone to drive a truck.

How many hybrid drivers would be comfortable with the idea that truck buyers should either by compelled to drive hybrids or that the truck drivers subsidizing their hybrid purchase is a good thing? A high percentage I'm sure. Because the greenie feels it is for the greater good that everyone drive a hybrid, right? That's smug.

[Guest bkazmer]

good point regarding subsidies. The hybrid credit is clear, but there is in effect a truck subsidy also. Trucks and cars are not treated equally for CAFE requirements.

[stock_steve]

...If a lot of this thread doesn't make sense to a new reader be advised that it was heavily edited yesterday, both pro- and con. There are few missing posts now, and some of the posts don't contain or mean what they used to....

Wow, something I can agree upon with the esteemed Dave.

I have already said my peace about why I strongly disagree with the amount and type of opinion censoring that goes on here, so I'll shut up.

[Guest Oracle]

I wonder how the Vauxhall and Opel Ampera (and Holden Volt) difrfer from the Chevy?

Vauxhall Ampera | Extended-Range Electric Vehicle ? Vauxhall Motors UK

It had been suggested that the Vauxhall/Opel would be built in Ellesmere Port, Liverpool alongside the Vauxhall Astra but I am not sure if it is.

[poci1957]

BTW, Toyota sold over 134,000 Priuses last year.

Hybrids are the future of automotive transportation.

......every year more hybrids are produced and sold and are on the road saving their owners money, both in terms of fuel consumption and lessened depreciation compared with their conventional counterparts.

You can deny reality all you want, but by its very nature it is unchanged by your opinion of it.

Hey Roger, you make your points very well and despite your differences I think you and alsancle both are having a good (and civil) debate. Your observation about the folly of the liberal and conservative bashing the other's SUV or hybrid as a political symbol is spot on.

So please note this is a real question and not a jab, and I really would like your opinion. Here I go......

You note the Prius sold 134,000 units last year, which sounds about accurate to me. But NO OTHER hybrid has been nearly as successful, even other Toyotas. Camry hybrids sell in marginal numbers, as do the various Lexus and SUV models. Honda is marginal too, Nissan gave up, Ford has been probably the number two producer with the Escape hybrid (100,000 units from 2005-2012) and it is being discontinued right now. Why is this? Why is ONLY the Prius a sales success? Even auto industry experts do not seem to know for sure. How can the hybrid be the answer if all have been poor sellers except one model? Price? A comparably equipped Camry Hybrid and Fusion Hybrid are priced pretty close and neither is a hot seller, but the gas versions are. Any opinion? Todd C

[Matt Harwood]

It's my guess that the Prius sells well for several reasons:

1, it looks unique. The Accord, Camry, Civic, and Ford hybrids all look like the regular cars on which they're based. The Prius looks like nothing else. I don't know that it's necessarily smugness per se, but many people drive hybrids with pride, and as a result want the cars to look the part. It's no different than the guy driving a Hummer--he likes the image it projects. There's no reason to hold that against them or pre-judge them any more than it's accurate to question the Hummer driver's manhood.

2, the Prius is the first and most well-known hybrid. I bet if you ask most non-car folks about who builds hybrid cars, they'd all know Toyota. If you told them that Ford makes two, many of them would probably say, "Really?!?" First in the game, and when it came out it was big news that the media covered ad nauseum. Everyone else will be playing catch-up for quite some time, even if the technology gap has closed with other manufacturers. From everything I've read, the Ford Fusion hybrid is the best on the market in terms of its blend of practicality, efficiency, performance, and price. But then again, it doesn't LOOK like a hybrid.

3, it's practical. Yes, the Insight looked unique, but it was a 2-seater, limiting its practicality. The Prius (and all its derivatives today) had 4-doors in a package that had as much space as a mid-sized sedan, with a decent trunk. It is far from a tiny go-cart, yet still delivers impressive efficiency.

I'm puzzled why many people hate the hybrids so much. What's the threat? Where's the downside? Everyone using less gas means I get to enjoy my old cars that much longer before the oil runs out. Subsidies? Pfft. Almost EVERYTHING is subsidized in one way or another. We're discussing this on a subsidized internet using subsidized electricity generated with subsidized oil.

And yes, you're all going to have to get used to it. Hybrid powertrains in all manner of vehicles are going to be in widespread use in the next decade, and those of us young enough will probably live to see a day when EVERY new car is a hybrid. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. Hell, locomotives have been hybrids for decades!

I wonder: How many of you who refuse to own a hybrid have ever driven one? Remember that electric motors make 100% of their torque at 0 RPM. Who here doesn't like torque?

Edited March 20, 2012 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Rawja]

Many issues that I can foresee we won't agree on. So I guess I'll express my point of view this way. I feel it would never occur to the Neanderthal driving the truck that the greenie in his hybrid should be compelled to drive a truck too. It would also not occur to the Neanderthal that the greenie should be subsidizing his truck buying habit just because the Neanderthal happens to feel it would be for the greater good for everyone to drive a truck.

As near as I can tell, no one is compelling anyone to do anything. The number one selling vehicle for I dunno the last three decades has been the Ford F-150, hardly a fuel-sipping green-mobile.

The point I was trying to make was that "We the people" collectively make decisions to incentivize people to make decisions that are believed to serve the greater good.

It's everywhere.

Hybrid tax rebates.

Diesel car tax rebates (expired 2010)

Oil exploration tax credits.

Mortgage interest deductibility.

Dependent deductions.

Tax exempt status for religious organizations.

Married joint filing (which usually results in significant tax savings).

It's real easy for me to say "Why should I be subsidizing your marriage/kids/church/car/oil/house?"

I don't resent mortgage interest deductibility any more than you should resent a tax credit for buying a hybrid.

There's plenty of things the government spends on that I don't support, but I recognize that I'm one of +/- 311,000,000 so I can't reasonably expect that everything is going to be the way that I want it.

You note the Prius sold 134,000 units last year, which sounds about accurate to me. But NO OTHER hybrid has been nearly as successful, even other Toyotas. Camry hybrids sell in marginal numbers, as do the various Lexus and SUV models. Honda is marginal too, Nissan gave up, Ford has been probably the number two producer with the Escape hybrid (100,000 units from 2005-2012) and it is being discontinued right now. Why is this? Why is ONLY the Prius a sales success? Even auto industry experts do not seem to know for sure. How can the hybrid be the answer if all have been poor sellers except one model? Price? A comparably equipped Camry Hybrid and Fusion Hybrid are priced pretty close and neither is a hot seller, but the gas versions are. Any opinion?

I know where you're going with this. First off none of the sedan versions of "regular" cars offer the utility of the Prius, secondly the Prius is something of the gold standard of hybrids. If you want to imagine every Prius is a smug nyah-nyah statement aimed towards you I suppose that's your right even if you're wrong.

February 2012 hybrid sales spiked at two-and-a-half-times the increase of the also rising passenger vehicle market.

Camry Hybrid sales are at 11% of total up from 5% last year and projected to be 40,000 units for the year.

There's a tidal wave of new hybrid models coming, pretty much from every automaker. The recent spike in oil prices is going to abet quite an increase in the sales of 'em to be sure.

If seeing hybrids out on the roads upsets you, you're in for a very angry future.

[1937hd45]

How much scrap metal can a Neanderthal with a pickup take to the yard on one trip VS a Volt owner? Greenie or Capitalist?

Many issues that I can foresee we won't agree on. So I guess I'll express my point of view this way. I feel it would never occur to the Neanderthal driving the truck that the greenie in his hybrid should be compelled to drive a truck too. It would also not occur to the Neanderthal that the greenie should be subsidizing his truck buying habit just because the Neanderthal happens to feel it would be for the greater good for everyone to drive a truck.

How many hybrid drivers would be comfortable with the idea that truck buyers should either by compelled to drive hybrids or that the truck drivers subsidizing their hybrid purchase is a good thing? A high percentage I'm sure. Because the greenie feels it is for the greater good that everyone drive a hybrid, right? That's smug.

[alsancle]

Bringing up a bunch of other examples of government meddling just serves to obfuscate the clear fact the Volt would not exist on it's own merits. If the green technology is so great it should succeed without being propped up. You keep alluding to the "greater good of society" which I guess the Prius drivers all seem to understand but the Neanderthals in trucks don't seem to get. Perhaps those guys driving trucks are too busy lugging wood to a job site, driving 5 kids around or otherwise being productive. The single tree hugging Professor can easily utilize a small Hybrid to get himself campus for his 9:30 am lecture on Global Warming.

Hybrids that don't clearly say "I'm saving the world" will not sell to their target demographic. The Prius sells (mostly) for that reason.

As near as I can tell, no one is compelling anyone to do anything. The number one selling vehicle for I dunno the last three decades has been the Ford F-150, hardly a fuel-sipping green-mobile.

The point I was trying to make was that "We the people" collectively make decisions to incentivize people to make decisions that are believed to serve the greater good.

It's everywhere.

Hybrid tax rebates.

Diesel car tax rebates (expired 2010)

Oil exploration tax credits.

Mortgage interest deductibility.

Dependent deductions.

Tax exempt status for religious organizations.

Married joint filing (which usually results in significant tax savings).

It's real easy for me to say "Why should I be subsidizing your marriage/kids/church/car/oil/house?"

I don't resent mortgage interest deductibility any more than you should resent a tax credit for buying a hybrid.

There's plenty of things the government spends on that I don't support, but I recognize that I'm one of +/- 311,000,000 so I can't reasonably expect that everything is going to be the way that I want it.

I know where you're going with this. First off none of the sedan versions of "regular" cars offer the utility of the Prius, secondly the Prius is something of the gold standard of hybrids. If you want to imagine every Prius is a smug nyah-nyah statement aimed towards you I suppose that's your right even if you're wrong.

February 2012 hybrid sales spiked at two-and-a-half-times the increase of the also rising passenger vehicle market.

Camry Hybrid sales are at 11% of total up from 5% last year and projected to be 40,000 units for the year.

There's a tidal wave of new hybrid models coming, pretty much from every automaker. The recent spike in oil prices is going to abet quite an increase in the sales of 'em to be sure.

If seeing hybrids out on the roads upsets you, you're in for a very angry future.

[Dave@Moon]

You note the Prius sold 134,000 units last year, which sounds about accurate to me. But NO OTHER hybrid has been nearly as successful, even other Toyotas. Camry hybrids sell in marginal numbers, as do the various Lexus and SUV models. Honda is marginal too, Nissan gave up, Ford has been probably the number two producer with the Escape hybrid (100,000 units from 2005-2012) and it is being discontinued right now. Why is this? Why is ONLY the Prius a sales success? Even auto industry experts do not seem to know for sure. How can the hybrid be the answer if all have been poor sellers except one model? Price? A comparably equipped Camry Hybrid and Fusion Hybrid are priced pretty close and neither is a hot seller, but the gas versions are. Any opinion? Todd C

Ask the man who owns two!

All of Matt's points are accurate and valid for your question. However I'd like to expand on #3 because it's the heart of the Prius's success.

3, it's practical. Yes, the Insight looked unique, but it was a 2-seater, limiting its practicality. The Prius (and all its derivatives today) had 4-doors in a package that had as much space as a mid-sized sedan, with a decent trunk. It is far from a tiny go-cart, yet still delivers impressive efficiency.

Until last year the Prius was still the only hybrid car that was designed around the drivetrain, instead of having the drivetrain designed around an existing car. Doing that enabled Toyota to maximize every efficiency in the car beginning in 2004. It is a complete package, not just a unique drivetrain. It might look unique, but there's nothing about it's shape or appearance that is superfluous or (intentionally) designed to attract attention.

For instance every hybrid sedan on the market, including the Camry, has a reduced amount of trunk space to accommodate the drive battery and much of the hybrid system. A Prius has a HUGE trunk, the 2010-2012 model in fact has a bigger trunk than any Lincoln made since 1979 (21.5 cu.ft.). Even the roofline, highly criticized for it's appearance in the 2004-2009 version, was drawn to maximize airflow and not to "make a statement".

Last year Honda finally introduced a similarly designed (in concept, not just appearance) car, the second generation Insight.

[Dave@Moon]

On the subject of Honda hybrid sales...,

Honda's Hybrid program was severely impacted by the 2010 recall of 2006-2008 Hybrid Civics*, and has not yet even begun to recover either in sales or in the performance of their cars. Honda hybrids remain (since the recall) slower and less fuel-efficient than the Prius for roughly the same money. It has been a blow to the company and their previously spotless engineering record.

Hopefully Honda will recover soon to provide better competition.

===============================

*In 2008 it was discovered that 2006-2008 Hybrid Civics were wearing out their (expensive) battery packs at a rate too high to be sustained, with a number being replaced under warranty. The system as it was originally designed was demanding too much energy from the battery, draining it more completely than it should to ensure a long life. Before the warranty expired on the first car they were all recalled and reprogrammed to run the gasoline engine MUCH more than previous to preserve battery life.

My father bought a 2007 Hybrid Civic, and later a 2008 regular Civic as well. After he brought his hybrid in for the recall he told me that the engine almost never shut off, only doing so when the car was completely stopped (usually after a few seconds). His gas mileage dropped from around 42 mpg to 32 mpg, same as he was getting out of the (now faster) conventional Civic that cost a lot less.

Within a few months he traded it in on a new Prius. No it was not an economic decision, it was a moral one.

100,000 stories exactly like this one have been holding down Honda hybrid sales ever since.

Civic Hybrid Owners Disappointed with Battery Software Fix | Hybrid Cars

Edited March 21, 2012 by Dave@Moon (see edit history)

[poci1957]

I know where you're going with this. First off none of the sedan versions of "regular" cars offer the utility of the Prius, secondly the Prius is something of the gold standard of hybrids. If you want to imagine every Prius is a smug nyah-nyah statement aimed towards you I suppose that's your right even if you're wrong

Camry Hybrid sales are at 11% of total up from 5% last year and projected to be 40,000 units

If seeing hybrids out on the roads upsets you, you're in for a very angry future.

Sorry to disappoint Roger but I am not going anywhere nor am I angry. I said I am not fighting and I have no problem with hybrid cars and did not realize Camry sales were to that level. I thought I had asked a legitimate question and Matt's theory is the most common. I will move along to a different thread, thanks

[poci1957]

Thanks Dave, your comments were helpful. I have driven and sold Escape Hybrids and have found they had excellent features and a great service record. And with no loss of cargo space. Rural drivers around here are interested but rarely buy into the higher price.

[Dave@Moon]

Ford has been probably the number two producer with the Escape hybrid (100,000 units from 2005-2012) and it is being discontinued right now. Why is this?

Thanks for your kind comments.

BTW, the Escape Hybrid is being cancelled for 2 reasons. The 2013 redesign will include a 1.6L Ecoboost direct-injection conventional drivetrain that should come close to matching the hybrid's efficiency, and more importantly the hybrid production capacity is being reserved for the new Ford C-MAX "Prius-fighter" :cool:. ( 2012 Ford C-MAX Hybrids - Review | Hybrid Cars )