Open versus Closed

[Restorer32]

I think it would be a very boring thread if we only compared identical models open vs closed. Only a small handfull of cars would qualify under that rule. I guess we would have to rule out the wagons unless a car was available as a 4 door convertible and NOT as a 4 door sedan so that if you wanted a closed 4 door you would have had no other choice than a wagon. Strict adherence to the rule would pretty much eliminate all full customs. I guess back in the day closed sedans usually cost MORE than convertibles, at least in the early years.

[Dave@Moon]

Only a small handfull of cars would qualify under that rule.

That's what makes it a challenge. So far we have a few select sports cars (some British, '63 'Vette, Viper) and Crosleys. If it were dozens of cars that would make it a pretty boring discussion topic.

[alsancle]

Al

Your comment on the value of two SSJ's for one 20 Grand (I mistakenly called it an Arlington sedan, when in fact it's a torpedo sedan) is interesting. We'll probably never know in our lifetime, but it would be interesting to know. I think it's a stretch. (Interestingly enough, while the 20 Grand was one of the most expensive Duesenbergs, the two SSJ's were the least expensive... by far. Randy Ema once told me that the bodies for those two cars cost something like five-hundred bucks. But, like in the cases of Porsche Speedsters vs cabriolets, original prices don't always hold weight in the collector car world.)

West, my liberal arts education failed me on the wording here. It would be interesting to see a single SSJ straight up against the twenty grand at auction. I'm thinking the twenty grand probably goes higher. However, look at the SSK for an example of a skimpy body going for tons of money.

[West Peterson]

I think it was my fault. I read your post too quickly.

I wonder what your dad and mine would think. I'll report back if you do.

[West Peterson]

I think it would be a very boring thread if we only compared identical models open vs closed. Only a small handfull of cars would qualify under that rule. I guess we would have to rule out the wagons unless a car was available as a 4 door convertible and NOT as a 4 door sedan so that if you wanted a closed 4 door you would have had no other choice than a wagon. Strict adherence to the rule would pretty much eliminate all full customs. I guess back in the day closed sedans usually cost MORE than convertibles, at least in the early years.

Jeff

The thing is, it's not much of an irony when you start comparing apples and oranges. For instance, no one will be surprised that a Ford GT40 is worth more than a Shelby convertible. Not many people are going to bop themselves on the forehead saying, "you know, I think you're right!" It's the same when thing when mentioning that a Buick woody is worth more than a same-year convertible.

So, in my opinion, it is a less boring topic when you have to really think about which closed cars might be worth more than the same counterpart open car.

[Guest]

These + 4 Morgans, one of twenty four are worth more than the drop head.

http://assets.hemmings.com/uimage/5720696-425-0.jpg?rev=1

[alsancle]

I think it was my fault. I read your post too quickly.

I wonder what your dad and mine would think. I'll report back if you do.

My dad thinks the 20 grand would bring more money. Basically because of the styling over the SSJ. When I pointed out that an SSK Mercedes has no style yet will bring twice the money of an equivalent SS with a snazzy body it made him pause. I'm really not sure and I don't think he is either.

Btw, if we are talking prewar Classic chassis the conv vs hardtop can be thrown out the window. Basically, the styling of the car will dictate it's value regardless of top. This is a hard concept for the old timers where the rule of "if the top goes down the price goes up" held for years.

[alsancle]

Jeff

The thing is, it's not much of an irony when you start comparing apples and oranges. For instance, no one will be surprised that a Ford GT40 is worth more than a Shelby convertible. Not many people are going to bop themselves on the forehead saying, "you know, I think you're right!" It's the same when thing when mentioning that a Buick woody is worth more than a same-year convertible.

So, in my opinion, it is a less boring topic when you have to really think about which closed cars might be worth more than the same counterpart open car.

I think the basis of commonality has to be the chassis which would rule out comparing a Shelby to a GT40.

[Matt Harwood]

What about the Ford retractables? Do they count as convertibles or hardtops, and are they worth more than the fabric roofed convertibles?

[West Peterson]

My dad thinks the 20 grand would bring more money. Basically because of the styling over the SSJ. When I pointed out that an SSK Mercedes has no style yet will bring twice the money of an equivalent SS with a snazzy body it made him pause. I'm really not sure and I don't think he is either.

My dad thinks the SSJ, basically because non-hardcore, un-knowledgeable people would prefer the roadster vs a sedan, not realizing just how special the 20 Grand is. However, my argument would assume that if one were to spend $5-10 million (???), you'd have some good information. Though, that is not always the case, as we're well aware.

(Al's dad and my dad have been friends since the 1960s, though Al Jr. and I have never met)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Re Duesenberg values, a tough call indeed. I would be happy with a "common garden" LeGrande body. The best of the best is an area where history as well as a matter of personal preference come into play.

On A.J. & his dad, another example of the value of this site. Hope to meet in person in a couple weeks, have been lucky enough to meet a few people here which also led to finding my Packard - by far my favorite automotive site...

[alsancle]

West, I think we met at Hershey, I have a vague recollection of giving you some Buick Skylark wheels to deliver to someone else. Steve, I was just talking about your show today with my dad. We are planning on being there.

[tbirdman]

The '32 and '33 Packard Standard 8 Coupe Sedans, because of their rarity, would likely sell for as much or more than their open counterparts.

I don't think so. A open 32 or 33 will be worth about 3 times as much as a closed 32/33. If that is the case a close 32 or 33 Super 8 would be selling for over $200k which they are not.

[Restorer32]

A 1932 900 or a 1933 1001 2 door Coupe Sedan (Vicky) is an exceedingly rare car and both would possibly sell for more than a 900 Conv or a 1001 Convertible.

[Restorer32]

Admittedly a regular closed '32 or '33 sedan or coupe will sell for less than the open version. I am talking specifically about the Coupe Sedan, maybe 6-8 known.

[edinmass]

I would bet my money on the SSJ "shorty" bringing in more money than the "20 GRAND" although I must admit I would take the "20 GRAND" as I like closed cars better than open cars. Wasn't one of the SSJ cars a celebrity car? Gable? I remember them running on the loop in Hickory Corners 10 years ago. It was quite a sight. Does Al's family still have his car?

[Matt Harwood]

I lived next door to the Gable SSJ for years and Al's family does, indeed, still have the Gable SSJ, as well as the rest of his collection. I'm not sure what the future holds for the collection, since it appears that his kids aren't as into the cars as Al was, but they seem to understand the importance of them. His son, Chick, just built a large new garage to house several of them, and still maintains his father's house across the street from me with the large garage there as well. I tried not to ask about the cars too often--it seemed to be a sore spot for the family.

[edinmass]

Al was a great guy, he was a friend of my fathers as well as mine. I last saw him at the Pierce national meet in Lexington KY with a series 36 sedan he just finished. He told the story that it was given to him as a parts car for his roadster sometime long ago, and he just decided to restore it. I came out very nice. He had a great bunch of cars, hopefully if the family sells them they will go to owners who will drive them. It's a shame to see all the big iron that just sits in the garage for years at a time. Matt, how are you making out on the Caddy transmission? Ed

[tbirdman]

Admittedly a regular closed '32 or '33 sedan or coupe will sell for less than the open version. I am talking specifically about the Coupe Sedan, maybe 6-8 known.

Just because there is less of them, doesn't mean they would sell for more. A 1001 convertible will fetch 150k plus. I doubt the 900 Vicky would top 100K though I have been known to be wrong.

[Rusty_OToole]

I thought there were 2 SSJs, one built for Clark Gable the other for Gary Cooper?

Did Cooper order the first one after losing to Zeppo Marx, in a race between his Duesy and Marx's SSK Mercedes?

[Seldenguy]

Yes, there is another SSJ living in Florida. I believe it is in the Miles Collier collection and was built for Gary Cooper. There is a difference in the two bodies when they were built. Someone remarked Randy said they were five hundred dollars then, hard to believe today. You almost have to see them together to notice that they each have different rear fenders! Rusty, I can't help you on your second question, sorry. ---Bob

[West Peterson]

$500 is what the bodies cost new. The chassis were probably the normal $6-7,000. By the way, Clark Gable never owned the SSJ that is attributed to him. Duesenberg loaned it to him, and I believe they had a hard time getting him to give it back.

[alsancle]

I thought there were 2 SSJs, one built for Clark Gable the other for Gary Cooper?

Did Cooper order the first one after losing to Zeppo Marx, in a race between his Duesy and Marx's SSK Mercedes?

The Duesenburg easily beat the SS (not an SSK) at Muroc. It should have been a tighter race but the mercedes was not well prepared. Most references to SSK are almost always SS cars. A real SSK is a race car and would take a stock Duesenberg in just about any type of race.

[sambarn]

I don't know beans about Duesenbergs but as far as as Coupe vs. Roadster, The most expensive Marmon 16 ever sold is a Victoria Coupe, at 670K far outpacing any of the convertibles ever sold. Funny thing about the 16. Marmon made an estimated 170,000 cars. They made 392 16s, the lowest production run for any Marmon. With 80-85 16s existing, they are now the most common Marmon model left.

[alsancle]

I don't know beans about Duesenbergs but as far as as Coupe vs. Roadster, The most expensive Marmon 16 ever sold is a Victoria Coupe, at 670K far outpacing any of the convertibles ever sold. Funny thing about the 16. Marmon made an estimated 170,000 cars. They made 392 16s, the lowest production run for any Marmon. With 80-85 16s existing, they are now the most common Marmon model left.

I think that particular sale was an aberration. The Conv Coupe should bring more than the 3 window & the Conv sedan should bring more than the Victoria. There have not been a lot of public sales of V16 Marmons but I think that trend has been more or less true.

[Dave@Moon]

Here's one I didn't originally think of because they weren't concurrently made. 1955-1957 Mercedes 300SL gull-wings are worth about $100,000 more than the 1958-1963 roadsters that replaced them.

[1937hd45]

1909 Model T Ford Coupe vs Touring or Runabout, MG-TA and TC Airline Coupe vs Roadster. If Jaguar made a Coupe version of the SS 100 I'd like one. Update: I just Googled Jaguar SS 100 Coupe and found out they made ONE, and it is for sale, better buy another Lotto ticket this week. SS Jaguar - SS100 Fixed Head Coupe #39088 1938 for sale - PreWarCar

Edited June 7, 2011 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Here's one I didn't originally think of because they weren't concurrently made. 1955-1957 Mercedes 300SL gull-wings are worth about $100,000 more than the 1958-1963 roadsters that replaced them.

Mentioned on the very first post.

[alsancle]

O.k., Who guessed that the Whittel Coupe would bring 10 million dollars? That was not on anybody's list of the top 5 Duesenbergs and it's a hardtop!

More evidence that with the prewar classics conv vs hardtop does not matter.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

A.J. on the other end of the spectrum I had a Model A for many years, and when I initially got into those I was really surprised at how many people preferred not only closed cars but sedans. Now that does not translate into values as an A roadster, cab or phaeton generally tops a closed car but here in NE these guys like to tour a lot and many feel the space and ability to be a little more comfortable in cooler weather is a plus. I was always brought up to believe open is best followed by coupe BUT I think with Classics it may make less difference.

A friend just picked up a nice Caddy club sedan (hopefuly he shares here) - not too many ugly club sedans out there regardless of make...

[jim5618]

Off the top of my head.... 69 Mustang Mach must be more than a 69 convertible...... Some of the cars didn't offer the high performance version in a convertible.

[alsancle]

Off the top of my head.... 69 Mustang Mach must be more than a 69 convertible...... Some of the cars didn't offer the high performance version in a convertible.

Apples to apples the conv will bring more (the apple being the drivetrain). For example, a 428 CJ Conv will bring more than a 428 CJ Mach 1.

[Guest mortsciguy]

Just out of curiosity, I looked up a much more common model in NADA, under classic cars. According to NADA, a 64' Olds Starfire convertible has an average retail, w/ the 394/345hp, of $17,600, with it's hard top brother listed at $25,850. What? With hard tops produced at almost twice the rate as rags, could this be true? I'm confused.

Kelly

[alsancle]

I generally regard price guides as worthless.